DHT Lowers Cortisol, Estrogen And Is Neuroprotective

LeeLemonoil

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I'm fairly convinced that a great deal of the posiive mental effects of DHT actually stem from this metabolite of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3β-Androstanediol

it binds on ERß primarily but the classification as an estrogen is misleading, it's more likely the major androgenic metabolite to keep genuine, detrimental estrogenic action in check in the male physiology, as well as in females to a certain degree.

which is on another pathway also a metabolite of DHEA.
The enzymes required for these pathways are 17β-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases and 3β-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase respectively.


According to this piece : http://meridianvalleylab.com/testosteron-metabolite-3b-adiol
substances that upregulate these enzymes or are needed as rate limiting co-factors are Zinc, acids found in Coconut oil and olive oil, Retinoids and retinoic acids, Lithium, Niacinamide ... Sounds very peatish.
On the other hand I don't know the quality and validity of all the claims made in that piece - he is wrong for example that 3ß-diol cannot be convertrd back to DHT, it can and it does.

Nevertehless, a very intriguing steroid-hormone and as the wiki-entry states. there was also a synthetic derivate already in production. If only one could get the hands on it ...
 

Wagner83

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Well finasteride messed me up and preg and dhea restored my libido and sex drive to pre fin levels again (maybe even higher- which I have a pretty drive normally). The thing is I tried preg in the past for a few days and felt worse. I tried it again and after two weeks the effects were dramatically noticeable. I think fin depleted my natural preg levels and adding extra preg for a period of time could have increased them back to normal due to preg's ability to impact a positive feedback loop. I don't want to say "cured" because I don't know how I would feel not taking it and don't really even want to come off as preg is healthy to take long term.

I also had high cholesterol levels so maybe preg freed up some of the cholesterol to make into hormones too.

In comparison to masteron/proviron, preg/dhea is way more natural and not as stimulating. Masteron/proviron are way more stimulating in every aspect (aggression, sex drive etc.), but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Like the effects are the synthetic DHT derivatives are good but not something maybe to be on long term- if you can get the same effects from preg/dhea (plus no worries about natural shutdown).

Ok thanks, I'll keep the high pregnenolone dose in mind when I try pansterone, it may be worth playing with from what you say. Have you noticed a deeper voice?
How were you doing on androsterone + pansterone? Was androsterone beneficial to you?
 

Nick Ireland

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I use it every day in pea sized amounts each dose.
Did you get your progesterone tested at the same time as that testosterone? I'd be interested to see the ratio on that. They seem to play a balancing act with each other. I doubt there have been many studies on that ratio?
Progesterone makes me feel caring and attentive. DHT makes me feel energised , assertive and analytical. If you check online for some endo notes or studies, adding progesterone can make all the difference to treatment resistant testosterone therapy and can eliminate the use of AI's like Arimidex.
Say, for example, you have a steroidal conversion block for whatever reason. Can NDT remove that block and get all cylinders firing? I think it can if given long enough. What would concern me is the backlog of unconverted intermediaries until this breakthrough happens. Is this why some dudes get puffy or put on a fair bit of fat weight after exclusive use of NDT? I figure at least with an end point hormone like DHT it will discourage too much of that backlog.
DHT is certainly not everyone's solution. It's a tool in the box.
There are dudes out there who have been genetically high DHT lower T all their lives due to strong 5AR expression and low aromatase. In my opinion that's a subset which will respond well to Andractim over Testosterone cypionate because their system is geared for it. Not many docs test for DHT and certainly not when a man is in his ideal hormonal state in his early twenties, So what is the 'ideal' state? Does it exist? I would love to see a study of 1000 males for P, T, E, DHT, Prolactin etc at mean 21 years to see just how much variance there is in the hormonal interplay.
 

TubZy

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Ok thanks, I'll keep the high pregnenolone dose in mind when I try pansterone, it may be worth playing with from what you say. Have you noticed a deeper voice?
How were you doing on androsterone + pansterone? Was androsterone beneficial to you?

Yeah, I actually had high DHT levels prior to taking fin either from genetically and/or cycling DHT derivatives which can upregulate the body's natural DHT synthesis. So all of the masculine characteristics of DHT I had/have (deep voice, don't hold much water, vascularity, high libido, hard muscles, defined jawline) The only that didn't fully normalize is my facial hair growth. I still don't think it's as thick as it used to be but it's hard to tell.

Andro and 11 keto, pansterone are all good stuff. The only reason I stopped using them was due to the DMSO. So I switched to oral preg and dhea and took Peat's advice about former steroid users restoring HPTA function with 100mg of preg and 5mg of dhea with coconut oil.

Another thing is preg definitely is raising progesterone because I get that urge to touch/think about girls in a emotional type way too rather just a high libido if that makes sense. I never had that feeling towards girls since prior to taking fin.
 

Lightbringer

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I use it every day in pea sized amounts each dose.
Did you get your progesterone tested at the same time as that testosterone? I'd be interested to see the ratio on that. They seem to play a balancing act with each other. I doubt there have been many studies on that ratio?
Progesterone makes me feel caring and attentive. DHT makes me feel energised , assertive and analytical. If you check online for some endo notes or studies, adding progesterone can make all the difference to treatment resistant testosterone therapy and can eliminate the use of AI's like Arimidex.
I haven't had progesterone tested. Next time, i'll pony up to to test that + prl in addition to the usual hormonal profile of LH/E2/T. The last time I did the DHT experiment it was pretty much by itself (vit k,d too). I was considering giving it another shot by adding pregnenolone and dhea to see if that would help stabilize T levels. I had not thought of adding progesterone to the mix, but that is an interesting idea. I'll stick to a single pea sized dose a day to start to see how things go. It does become tricky to estimate how many mg of dht you get in that dose though.
 

Wagner83

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Yeah, I actually had high DHT levels prior to taking fin either from genetically and/or cycling DHT derivatives which can upregulate the body's natural DHT synthesis. So all of the masculine characteristics of DHT I had/have (deep voice, don't hold much water, vascularity, high libido, hard muscles, defined jawline) The only that didn't fully normalize is my facial hair growth. I still don't think it's as thick as it used to be but it's hard to tell.

Andro and 11 keto, pansterone are all good stuff. The only reason I stopped using them was due to the DMSO. So I switched to oral preg and dhea and took Peat's advice about former steroid users restoring HPTA function with 100mg of preg and 5mg of dhea with coconut oil.

Another thing is preg definitely is raising progesterone because I get that urge to touch/think about girls in a emotional type way too rather just a high libido if that makes sense. I never had that feeling towards girls since prior to taking fin.


Cool thanks for the details, I wonder if 11 keto stimulates its own or dht synthesis? From what I understand it wouldn't work the same way as dht in this regard, which would limit its use a bit, I could be wrong though. I have all of the goodies you mentioned to try, but the oral pregnenolone (quite cheap actually) will be kept in mind.
 

TubZy

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Cool thanks for the details, I wonder if 11 keto stimulates its own or dht synthesis? From what I understand it wouldn't work the same way as dht in this regard, which would limit its use a bit, I could be wrong though. I have all of the goodies you mentioned to try, but the oral pregnenolone (quite cheap actually) will be kept in mind.

Sounds good- keep us posted. I'm just using the stuff from Toxin less.com that @Dan Wich suggests, seems to be pretty good.

I think androsterone does maybe- not sure about 11 keto though.
 

DaveFoster

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Isn't this what Ray prefers? Good levels of progesterone and DHT?
Yes, which can be accomplished with pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation (progesterone and DHT conversion respectively.)
 

TubZy

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Yes, which can be accomplished with pregnenolone and DHEA supplementation (progesterone and DHT conversion respectively.)

Exactly- that is why I think too about pregnenolone. It should be a base for anyone using either endogenous or exogenous hormones. It will at least help backfill or mimic some of the pathways that are deficient. That is why preg + dhea is more effective than just preg alone.
 

DaveFoster

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Exactly- that is why I think too about pregnenolone. It should be a base for anyone using either endogenous or exogenous hormones. It will at least help backfill or mimic some of the pathways that are deficient. That is why preg + dhea is more effective than just preg alone.
Indeed; haidut has also mentioned that pregnenolone reduces the likelihood of suppression and may encourage HPTA function post-suppression, similar to hCG (as they work on similar pathways, if I'm correct.)

https://forums.lowtestosterone.com/...olone;-what-you-should-know.html#.WC4e8dUrKUl

Then there's this:

"I think it is good to cycle any steroid periodically but unlike the bodybuilders I think steroids like pregnenolone, DHEA, androsterone and 11-k DHT can be used for months without risk of suppression. The need to cycle is really driven by risk of suppression so if you use lower doses and have not signs of blood tests indicating suppression then there is probably no need to cycle. What I would also call a "cycle" is stopping taking them if you feel that thyroid function is recovered to the point that additional steroids are not needed. As I posted in another thread, high thyroid function leads to 4-5 fold higher levels of all androgens, so if you get to that point there should be no need to take them. But if thyroid function is suboptimal and you feel good while taking them and bad when stopping then this probably means you need those steroids so I'd keep taking them." -haidut
 

TubZy

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Indeed; haidut has also mentioned that pregnenolone reduces the likelihood of suppression and may encourage HPTA function post-suppression, similar to hCG (as they work on similar pathways, if I'm correct.)

https://forums.lowtestosterone.com/low-testosterone-com-questions-answers/2562-hcg-pregnenolone;-what-you-should-know.html#.WC4e8dUrKUl

Then there's this:

"I think it is good to cycle any steroid periodically but unlike the bodybuilders I think steroids like pregnenolone, DHEA, androsterone and 11-k DHT can be used for months without risk of suppression. The need to cycle is really driven by risk of suppression so if you use lower doses and have not signs of blood tests indicating suppression then there is probably no need to cycle. What I would also call a "cycle" is stopping taking them if you feel that thyroid function is recovered to the point that additional steroids are not needed. As I posted in another thread, high thyroid function leads to 4-5 fold higher levels of all androgens, so if you get to that point there should be no need to take them. But if thyroid function is suboptimal and you feel good while taking them and bad when stopping then this probably means you need those steroids so I'd keep taking them." -haidut

Yeah agreed. Preg does have an HCG effect as I used HCG in the past and preg definitely makes my boys hang lower and looser. Preg actually has a positive feedback loop compared to the other hormones so you can actually upregulate your natural production when you come off.
 

Wagner83

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Sounds good- keep us posted. I'm just using the stuff from Toxin less.com that @Dan Wich suggests, seems to be pretty good.

I think androsterone does maybe- not sure about 11 keto though.


Yeah probably since it increases dht levels indirectly.

I'm pretty sure unlike preg hcg has strong negative effects.
 

Nick Ireland

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Unless someone has very low levels of lh and fsh, eg after heavy use of androgen steroids, it is counterproductive.
Hcg boosts the hypothalamic pituitary signalling loop to the testes. If the testes themselves are the issue, eg oxidation damage (primary hypogonadism), then HCG will do nothing. It's not a drug I would recommend to anyone as it actually increases estrogen because the increased LH can stimulate aromatase conversion at the testes. Some dudes use clomid instead to boost T production by inserting a synthetic 'weak' estrogen into the feedback loop. But clomid causes anxiety and depression and night sweats in exactly the same way as estrogen so any Increased T is countered by a synthetic estrogen,
I reckon thyroid and good nutrient density would be the best T boost post cycle or post illness crash. One of the reasons I added in therapeutic doses of DHT to my regimen is that within minutes of using it my hands and feet get warmer and I can feel my stomach working on it's contents like a little engine. I believe DHT is a pro metabolism hormone. It synchs well with thyroid in my case but Retinol is essential for me to keep the bloat down.
 

TubZy

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Unless someone has very low levels of lh and fsh, eg after heavy use of androgen steroids, it is counterproductive.
Hcg boosts the hypothalamic pituitary signalling loop to the testes. If the testes themselves are the issue, eg oxidation damage (primary hypogonadism), then HCG will do nothing. It's not a drug I would recommend to anyone as it actually increases estrogen because the increased LH can stimulate aromatase conversion at the testes. Some dudes use clomid instead to boost T production by inserting a synthetic 'weak' estrogen into the feedback loop. But clomid causes anxiety and depression and night sweats in exactly the same way as estrogen so any Increased T is countered by a synthetic estrogen,
I reckon thyroid and good nutrient density would be the best T boost post cycle or post illness crash. One of the reasons I added in therapeutic doses of DHT to my regimen is that within minutes of using it my hands and feet get warmer and I can feel my stomach working on it's contents like a little engine. I believe DHT is a pro metabolism hormone. It synchs well with thyroid in my case but Retinol is essential for me to keep the bloat down.

You still on DHT gel?
 

DavePalumbo

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Why don't people use dht? Because it's illegal. It's considered an anabolic substance... stupid socialist, liberal governments and their control over everything.
 

Regina

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Indeed; haidut has also mentioned that pregnenolone reduces the likelihood of suppression and may encourage HPTA function post-suppression, similar to hCG (as they work on similar pathways, if I'm correct.)

https://forums.lowtestosterone.com/low-testosterone-com-questions-answers/2562-hcg-pregnenolone;-what-you-should-know.html#.WC4e8dUrKUl

Then there's this:

"I think it is good to cycle any steroid periodically but unlike the bodybuilders I think steroids like pregnenolone, DHEA, androsterone and 11-k DHT can be used for months without risk of suppression. The need to cycle is really driven by risk of suppression so if you use lower doses and have not signs of blood tests indicating suppression then there is probably no need to cycle. What I would also call a "cycle" is stopping taking them if you feel that thyroid function is recovered to the point that additional steroids are not needed. As I posted in another thread, high thyroid function leads to 4-5 fold higher levels of all androgens, so if you get to that point there should be no need to take them. But if thyroid function is suboptimal and you feel good while taking them and bad when stopping then this probably means you need those steroids so I'd keep taking them." -haidut
:thumbsup:
 

ddjd

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The T was so high because it wasn't converting to DHT.
What is it that stops T turning into DHT. I think I have the same problem of high T but low DHT....

I have used both proviron oral and andractim gel extensively, both prescribed by my doc.

The gel works. You can feel the cortisol lowering as a wave of calm kicks in within ten minutes max. It lasts a good few hours. A pea sized dab about three times a day renders good results. The skin gets noticeably thicker and your muscles fill out. After a few months a gentle, progressive fat loss does kick in. But be prepared for an overall initial weight gain as the body uses the DHT to go repair crazy - you could be talking about decades of damage needing fixed. You feel happier, more resilient and more outgoing. You think faster and are less emotional. Andractim didn't shut me down at all, in fact my boys got bigger. My gums got better. I needed less sleep but I slept all night without constant awakenings.

Proviron feels different, The cortisol does lower, but there is an edgy stimulant kick of the nervous system - no surprises as this is how anabolics increase muscle size via nerve stimulus. These orals work best for me under the tongue. Proviron seems to share a lot of characteristics with oral steroids which are highly anabolic but not so androgenic, and which will not convert to estrogen eg oxandrolone or stanozolol. The latter is well known for tanking cortisol, in some cases so much that users report sleepiness and lethargy soon after consumption,

Sorry, but no major vascularity changes with the gel. As someone who has lifted weights all their adult life, vascularity to me is a a sign of stressed physiology, the vascular system strraining to meet demands of energy and repair - which when you are younger you can cope with so much better. The nerve stim steroids will increase vascularity, so it does happen to some extent with proviron.

Andractim will give you more strength. I mean amazing strength gains in a few weeks and recovery times are nearly halved. It also appears to increase metabolic rate or efficiency. You feel warmer on it and I found myself having to wear less clothes in colder weather. So for many guys, I have to ask, is your problem at the top of the steroid tree with thyroid OR near the end of the branch with DHT? Just think how much environmental and edible ***t there is out there damaging 5AR production.

Andractim completely removed two moles from my skin on direct application, one which I had for 35 years. They just got darker, shrivelled up and came off like an old scab from a cut. So if Ray says DHEA can remove moles, it looks like it is the DHT derivative of that which works.

No hair loss. In fact my hair is better with andractim. Also, I didn't get more body hair - probably because of the block on estrogen it provides and Ray blames estrogen for secondary masculinising characteristics.

DHT derivatives are so much better than intermediate hormones in my experience - with the exception of progesterone. Combined with NDT they can be incredible - sex drive through the roof, energy, great mood. As an anti anxiety and anti depressant in it's own right, andractim is remarkable. Most likely via allpgnenolone pathways. I never experienced aggression on it but it does give a smaller bull**** threshold lol.

I know very recently of a 55 year old male complaining of anxiety and depression and lower energy. Testosterone tested an incredible 1200 at top of range, e2 at an unconcerning 30, BUT DHT was rock bottom. The T was so high because it wasn't converting to DHT. The docs did not pick up on this. In fact they thought a DHT test was 'exotic.' The dude started andractim gel. Within 48 hours his mood rocketed. Laughing, chatting, wanting to get out and about. He is about to do bloods again soon, My guess is the T will be lower and of courses DHT higher. The great thing about DHT is that it encourages your system to make more 5AR. BTW, this dude was on unsaturated oils all his life - likely culprit?

I have used prescribed testosterone jabs and gel. They were a disaster. For guys especially - find your problem in the steroid tree, isolate and fix it. I know that sounds simple and it isn't, but it is a goal worth pursuing. DHEA often cascaded in all the wrong directions for me. T did the same. But DHT fixed so much and I wish I had found it at the start. Another lesson to be learned is this - give something time to work. That's how long it takes to repair the damage fat makes you feel like crap.
This is a great post. Given me lots of explore/ think about
 

LukasWood

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Does anybody know what happens to 5 AR when you lower Estrogen? (with White Mushroom for ex.) will 5 AR and DHT raise, because you block one path of Testosterone?
 

ddjd

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thanks for the article. this bit about it rasing adrenaline isnt so great though;

DHT has been shown to increase circulating epinephrine levels (adrenaline), this can cause anxiety in predisposed individuals, however, most of the time, this is not the case, since DHT also increases GABA activity in the brain, which is relaxing (10) (11) (12). So in other words, DHT should promote A focused, calm burst of energy, which is what many users of DHT-based steroids, report as the "alpha-male" feeling (13) (14). Dihydrotestosterone increase central and nervous system energy production by increasing not just adrenaline, but cyclic AMP (15). This molecule increase thermogenesis (fat-burning and heat production)(16).
 

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