DHT And T Is More Suppresive The Older You Are

[Beefcake]

Sorry if the title might not be 100% accurate but according to this study DHT was more suppresive on LH and FSH in elder men than T. But T was also more suppresive in elder than younger. Estrogen was suppresive in both elder and younger. Im curious to what age related mechanism makes this happens as in fact natural T production could just become more suppresive with age. Does receptors get more sensitive with age to testosterone due to decline or what? Also if DHT is more suppresive than T in general according to this study people who say proviron is not suppresive have to be wrong

Link to study here:
The gonadotropin-suppressive activity of androgen is increased in elderly men. - PubMed - NCBI

T supressive effect we already established is partially due to estrogen convertion but DHT cant convert to E and should not be so suppresive. How can the first study say it’s more so?
The direct pituitary effect of testosterone to inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men is partially mediated by aromatization to estradiol. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[haidut]

T supressive effect we already established is partially due to estrogen convertion but DHT cant convert to E and should not be so suppresive. How can the first study say it’s more so?

DHT metabolizes partially into 5a-androstanediol and that steroid behaves as agonist on ER-beta. It is thought that this is one mechanism through which DHT also suppresses pituitary. In addition, both the Leydig and Sertoli cells in gonads express the androgen receptor and it is thought that those cells are there to form a pituitary-independent negative feedback loop so that if androgen levels increase too much and the pituitary is unresponsive androgen levels can still be kept under control. For example, one could have a pituitary tumor and produce very high levels of LH/FSH, which cannot be suppressed by high androgen levels. So, this second negative feedback loop is what would control androgens levels despite the pituitary derangement.

 

[vulture]

I toke low dose Proviron (25 to 50 mg ED) and t rose about 10%+ in few weeks.
Too much speculations here.
On the other hand, toke low dose T scrotally and started getting supressed right Away as well as my highest PRL levels ever.

 

[tallglass13]

DHT metabolizes partially into 5a-androstanediol and that steroid behaves as agonist on ER-beta. It is thought that this is one mechanism through which DHT also suppresses pituitary. In addition, both the Leydig and Sertoli cells in gonads express the androgen receptor and it is thought that those cells are there to form a pituitary-independent negative feedback loop so that if androgen levels increase too much and the pituitary is unresponsive androgen levels can still be kept under control. For example, one could have a pituitary tumor and produce very high levels of LH/FSH, which cannot be suppressed by high androgen levels. So, this second negative feedback loop is what would control androgens levels despite the pituitary derangement.

@haidut, is 5 Alpha diol the hormone that you think is the balding hormone?
Also on the forum hackstasis, gbold is saying that 5 beta diol is an estrogen that may cause some problems, he was saying that he thinks that Dht should be metabolizing into 5 Alpha diol. And that finasteride inhibits the metabolization into the diols.

 

[haidut]

@haidut, is 5 Alpha diol the hormone that you think is the balding hormone?
Also on the forum hackstasis, gbold is saying that 5 beta diol is an estrogen that may cause some problems, he was saying that he thinks that Dht should be metabolizing into 5 Alpha diol. And that finasteride inhibits the metabolization into the diols.

5-beta diol is much more potent estrogen than the 5-alpha variety and the beta isomer activates both ER-alpha and ER-beta. So, I agree with gbol that it can be a problem and that in general in disease the 3b-HSD degradation of DHT predominates over the 3a-HSD pathway. But more importantly, DHT degradation through any pathway is increased in pathological conditions.
As far as balding, I think 5-beta-androstenediol (DHEA metabolite) plays a bigger role in balding than 5-alpha-androstanediol (DHT metabolite) or even 5-beta-androstanediol (DHT metabolite). My guess is that it is 80% 5-beta-androstenediol and 20% 5-beta-androstanediol in terms of contribution to balding. As corroborating evidence, DHT derivatives that are highly resistant to degradation such as Drostanolone, do not cause balding. To the contrary, when it was tested back in the 70s and 80s for breast cancer it was found to increase hair growth, at least in women.
Drostanolone propionate - Wikipedia
"...Side effects of drostanolone propionate include symptoms of masculinization like acne, increased hair growth, voice changes, and increased sexual desire.[1] It has no risk of liver damage.[1] The drug is a synthetic androgen and anabolic steroid and hence is an agonist of the androgen receptor (AR), the biological target of androgens like testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT).[1][3] It has moderate anabolic effects and weak androgeniceffects, which give it a mild side effect profile and make it especially suitable for use in women.[1] The drug has no estrogenic effects.[1] Drostanolone propionate is an androgen ester and a long-lasting prodrug of drostanolonein the body.[1]"

Of course, you never heard peddlers of finasteride or any doctor really address the issue of why degradation-resistant DHT steroids do not cause hair loss but hair growth. It would kill the hair loss industry and likely the BPH and prostate cancer industries as well.

 

[tallglass13]

@haidut, great man! And I've been using DHT in very small doses, and never seen any increase in hair loss. I have even used it on the scalp. With no noticeable increase .
You may have answered this before , but what products do you think are the most effective for blocking 5 beta androstenediol

 

[tallglass13]

@haidut, It's just that if progesterone thyroid and things like that blocked these metabolites then we would see reversal of balding more often...., so I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can do to really stop the conversion of those DHEA metabolites

 

[haidut]

@haidut, It's just that if progesterone thyroid and things like that blocked these metabolites then we would see reversal of balding more often...., so I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can do to really stop the conversion of those DHEA metabolites

I think the steroid aspect of baldness is one part of the problem but not the only one. IMO, the increased degradation of DHT and DHEA is due to redox balance shifting towards reduction, so keeping NAD/NADH ratio high and making sure thyroid status and endotoxin are taken care of covers the remainder of the reasons. There are reports of antiserotonin chemicals helping hair loss, so that may be a good systemic way to address many of the energetic issues related to hair loss, while also blocking endotoxin effects, NO, etc. Cypro seems to address all of these pathways, so I'd consider it or another non-selective serotonin antagonist.

 

[tallglass13]

I think the steroid aspect of baldness is one part of the problem but not the only one. IMO, the increased degradation of DHT and DHEA is due to redox balance shifting towards reduction, so keeping NAD/NADH ratio high and making sure thyroid status and endotoxin are taken care of covers the remainder of the reasons. There are reports of antiserotonin chemicals helping hair loss, so that may be a good systemic way to address many of the energetic issues related to hair loss, while also blocking endotoxin effects, NO, etc. Cypro seems to address all of these pathways, so I'd consider it or another non-selective serotonin antagonist.

Wow thank you for your response, very much appreciated

 

[CLASH]

@haidut
I think you are correct in your hypothesis that the DHEA metabolite, dependent on NADH/NAD ratio is the specific hormone involved in hairloss.

I have taken DHEA and experienced increased hair shedding from it.

However to put this in context, I have a confirmed (multiple stool tests, months and years apart) gram-negative overgrowth of klebsiella pneumonia in my intestine. I consistently have pain in the left lower quadrant of my abdomen, indicative of most likely an infection in the sigmoid colon area. When I started doing a coconut oil enema that contained antimicrobial essential oils such as cinnamon and oregano, my LLQ pain went away and when I use DHEA I now no longer get any hair shedding from the supplement.

I think that an upregulation of the adrenal glands with subsequent DHEA and cortisol release from a chronic bacterial/ fungal infection in the intestine may be one of the primary causes of balding in men. The DHEA and DHT are protective mechanisms that get upregulated in defense. A simultaneous upregulation of TLR-4 with the gram negative infection is most likely what contributes to the fibrosis seen in the scalp as well as associations with heart disease and prostate cancer.

I dont think its so far fetched that this would be a possible major underlying issue of baldness/ fibrosis of scalp considering that chronic pathogenic infections in the intestine are strongly associated with almost every single autoimmune disease and almost every autoimmune disease has a pathology of fibrosis of some tissue. For example the fibrosis and subsequent calcification of the whole spine known commonly as ankylosing spondylitis is pretty much known at this point to be caused by a klebsiella overgrowth in the gut. I’m pretty sure lupus is associated with staph and rheumatoid arthritis is associated with strep. All have underlying pathologies of fibrosis all over the body and co-morbities of heart disease, cancer etc.

Endotoxin seems to be the spark, and PUFA the explosive ordance. Immunosuppressive therapies like cortisone and the biologics seem idiotic at best and extremely damaging at worst....

 

[baccheion]

@haidut, It's just that if progesterone thyroid and things like that blocked these metabolites then we would see reversal of balding more often...., so I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can do to really stop the conversion of those DHEA metabolites

Have you tried progesterone on the scalp for balding? Some on other forums have noticed regrowth.

I suspect iodine topically on the scalp would trigger regrowth after several months. Iodine protocol (w/ 50 mg Lugol's 2x/day) would also be followed at the same time to buffer against any toxins released.

@haidut
I think you are correct in your hypothesis that the DHEA metabolite, dependent on NADH/NAD ratio is the specific hormone involved in hairloss.

I have taken DHEA and experienced increased hair shedding from it.

However to put this in context, I have a confirmed (multiple stool tests, months and years apart) gram-negative overgrowth of klebsiella pneumonia in my intestine. I consistently have pain in the left lower quadrant of my abdomen, indicative of most likely an infection in the sigmoid colon area. When I started doing a coconut oil enema that contained antimicrobial essential oils such as cinnamon and oregano, my LLQ pain went away and when I use DHEA I now no longer get any hair shedding from the supplement.

I think that an upregulation of the adrenal glands with subsequent DHEA and cortisol release from a chronic bacterial/ fungal infection in the intestine may be one of the primary causes of balding in men. The DHEA and DHT are protective mechanisms that get upregulated in defense. A simultaneous upregulation of TLR-4 with the gram negative infection is most likely what contributes to the fibrosis seen in the scalp as well as associations with heart disease and prostate cancer.

I dont think its so far fetched that this would be a possible major underlying issue of baldness/ fibrosis of scalp considering that chronic pathogenic infections in the intestine are strongly associated with almost every single autoimmune disease and almost every autoimmune disease has a pathology of fibrosis of some tissue. For example the fibrosis and subsequent calcification of the whole spine known commonly as ankylosing spondylitis is pretty much known at this point to be caused by a klebsiella overgrowth in the gut. I’m pretty sure lupus is associated with staph and rheumatoid arthritis is associated with strep. All have underlying pathologies of fibrosis all over the body and co-morbities of heart disease, cancer etc.

Endotoxin seems to be the spark, and PUFA the explosive ordance. Immunosuppressive therapies like cortisone and the biologics seem idiotic at best and extremely damaging at worst....

Were you also taking pregnenolone, such that progesterone could be synthesized as needed? Was hairloss extreme or just a few strands for a while? Progesterone keeps hair around longer, while DHT pushes for shedding.

 

[tallglass13]

Have you tried progesterone on the scalp for balding? Some on other forums have noticed regrowth.

I suspect iodine topically on the scalp would trigger regrowth after several months. Iodine protocol (w/ 50 mg Lugol's 2x/day) would also be followed at the same time to buffer against any toxins released.
Were you also taking pregnenolone, such that progesterone could be synthesized as needed? Was hairloss extreme or just a few strands for a while? Progesterone keeps hair around longer, while DHT pushes for shedding.

I actually just applied Proget E last night in the crown. Some engineer was talking about how the scalp gets inflamed from lymphedema, and most likely that can be do to Aldosterone. Progesterone helps inhibit Aldosterone according to RP, so this might work through that mechanism.

 

[tallglass13]

Have you tried progesterone on the scalp for balding? Some on other forums have noticed regrowth.

I suspect iodine topically on the scalp would trigger regrowth after several months. Iodine protocol (w/ 50 mg Lugol's 2x/day) would also be followed at the same time to buffer against any toxins released.
Were you also taking pregnenolone, such that progesterone could be synthesized as needed? Was hairloss extreme or just a few strands for a while? Progesterone keeps hair around longer, while DHT pushes for shedding.

oh yeah, in Nathans Hatch's book, he rec's topical Iodine to block the unsaturated fats. Ive been using that too. seems to work. Its just that WHY does Finasteride work. If you look at Belgravia Hair Clinic before and after, they grow so much hair with Fin and Min.

 

[ShotTrue]

I toke low dose Proviron (25 to 50 mg ED) and t rose about 10%+ in few weeks.
Too much speculations here.
On the other hand, toke low dose T scrotally and started getting supressed right Away as well as my highest PRL levels ever.

Proviron raised your T? DO you think it's complety safe or useful to take those doses?
Asking because I received a free pack

 

[TheBeard]

Proviron raised your T? DO you think it's complety safe or useful to take those doses?
Asking because I received a free pack

Both 25mg and 50mg Proviron tanked my estrogen and killed my libido

 

[Beefcake]

Proviron responsiveness is very hard to judge. I took it low dose with low dose exemestane. Bad idea tanked Estrogen and felt ***t pretty fast. Dropped the aromasin and waited couple months. Tried prov again and so far so good. Nothing spectacular really. I don’t notice crazy libido like other people say. Nitric oxide booster and dopamine boosters are much more potent for me. Even did 150mg proviron and I mentally felt great and muscles harder. Not much libido boost. But at that dose it does shrink balls to a certain degree. Mine was back to normal though with in 2 weeks. Im mainly using it because I probably always had generically quite low 5AR. Had high T but not much body hair or baldness at all. Otherwise nothing else but dunno how connected DHT and beard growth is. Tried minoxidil and that did work 100% for sure doubled my beard in just 3-4 months.

 

[Beefcake]

DHT metabolizes partially into 5a-androstanediol and that steroid behaves as agonist on ER-beta. It is thought that this is one mechanism through which DHT also suppresses pituitary. In addition, both the Leydig and Sertoli cells in gonads express the androgen receptor and it is thought that those cells are there to form a pituitary-independent negative feedback loop so that if androgen levels increase too much and the pituitary is unresponsive androgen levels can still be kept under control. For example, one could have a pituitary tumor and produce very high levels of LH/FSH, which cannot be suppressed by high androgen levels. So, this second negative feedback loop is what would control androgens levels despite the pituitary derangement.

So if this is true then DHT is more suppresive than Estrogen as the study says? Then your product androsterone should be suppresive? Or it does not boost DHT levels? Ive read androsterone lowering E. But still T should also be lowered then and maybe its also how andro lowered E? By lowering T?

 

[ShotTrue]

Thanks for the anecdotes on proviron. My estro I feel run around 17 so lowering it may be bad for me. I'll have to experiement tho
@Beefcake interesting about the rogaine beard effect, ive heard of it before.

 

[Beefcake]

Thanks for the anecdotes on proviron. My estro I feel run around 17 so lowering it may be bad for me. I'll have to experiement tho
@Beefcake interesting about the rogaine beard effect, ive heard of it before.

25 seems to be optimal at body builder forums for estrogen. What are you interested about it? I can assure you it does work. You apply with a dropper and smear it with your fingers over the areas you want growth. Do this twice daily. No washing or showering for 4 hours. It takes 4 hours to absorb most of it. I started seeing effect within 2 months. Im on my 4th now and still seeing new white hairs growing longer and getting thicker and darker. Google minoxidil before and after you tend to see 12 months usage. But in 12 months you can go from having like 0 beard to a full regular beard. Some say it doesnt work for them but it sure as hell works for me. Have gotten more gains recently side burns taking shape now aswell. I attach pictures I have taken before. So I basically went from 0 beard as in first photo to gaining the hairs seen in the others in just 2-3 months of daily usage. Interesting to see within a year.

 

[Beefcake]

Thanks for the anecdotes on proviron. My estro I feel run around 17 so lowering it may be bad for me. I'll have to experiement tho
@Beefcake interesting about the rogaine beard effect, ive heard of it before.

If your interested buy kirkland extra strength minoxidil they have 12 month supply not to expensive. The beard does not go away when you stop either. Then get some DHEA rubb it on your balls. Fast gains after that.