DHEA Provides Same Benefits Effects As Exercise By Increasing DHT

[haidut]

This is a follow up study to the one I posted earlier. This study by the same authors wanted to assess whether exercise was superior to DHEA administration in improving insulin resistance and blood glucose in obese rats. The results were that DHEA and exercise exert the same benefits and both interventions result in reduced weight, lower insulin and blood glucose levels in obese rats, without any dietary restrictions! A major factor in improved insulin sensitivity, weight and blood glucose was the increase in DHT as a result of either exercise or DHEA supplementation. Btw, the group administered DHEA had higher DHT than the exercising group. Thus, the authors think that DHEA administration is a viable alternative to exercise for people who cannot perform physical exertion for various reasons.
The human equivalent dosage was 10mg-15mg of DHEA daily for 6 weeks. This dose matches well the recommendations Peat provided on DHEA supplementation - take 5mg 2-3 times daily.

Increased muscular dehydroepiandrosterone levels are associated with improved hyperglycemia in obese rats | Endocrinology and Metabolism

"...Both DHEA administration and exercise training significantly attenuated body weight compared with the control group (Table 1). Exercise training and DHEA administration did not modify caloric intake compared with obese-control. Average caloric intake during the 6 wk was 74.07 ± 0.74 kcal in the control group, 74.42 ± 0.78 kcal in the DHEA group, and 74.09 ± 0.76 kcal in the exercise group. No significant differences were found among the groups before and during exercise or before and during DHEA administration (Fig. 1). Moreover, a marked increase in soleus muscle weight was observed in the DHEA-treated and exercise-training groups compared with the control group. Citrate synthase activity in soleus muscle was significantly higher in the exercise-training group than in the other groups. Serum insulin and fasting blood glucose levels were significantly lower in the DHEA-treated and exercise-training groups after 6 wk (Table 1). No significant differences were detected between the DHEA-treated and exercise-training groups, however."

 

[A.R]

I think in obese human individuals, it's very hard to take DHEA without it converting to estrogen - even at low doses (5mg) , and especially with having compromised liver function.

 

[Dan010101]

Doesn't 15mg DHEA increase estrogen? or is that when you take it all at once? 21 y/o male here

 

[haidut]

I think in obese human individuals, it's very hard to take DHEA without it converting to estrogen - even at low doses (5mg) , and especially with having compromised liver function.

It's possible, yes. I would take it with aspirin and some pregnenolone to control the estrogenic conversion.

 

[haidut]

Doesn't 15mg DHEA increase estrogen? or is that when you take it all at once? 21 y/o male here

It depends on each person, but the human studies with oral dose of 25mg found barely increased estrogen (but the increase was statistically significant). The animal studies I have seen suggest an upper limit of 15mg - 20mg before prolactin/estrogen starts to increase. Taking in one dose as opposed to smaller multiple doses will increase chance of estrogen conversion.
http://www.nel.edu/pdf_w/23_4/NEL230402A05_Piroli_rw.pdf
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/174/3/447.full.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12195234

 

[Wagner83]

Wouldn't endogenous levels and therefore age and health play a part as well? So that a young lad would have little use of it unless there's a very specific conditions.

 

[haidut]

Wouldn't endogenous levels and therefore age and health play a part as well? So that a young lad would have little use of it unless there's a very specific conditions.

Of course, a young person with high DHEA levels probably does not need supplementation to improve health. But in younger people the propensity for conversion into estrogen is also lower so it may actually have a stronger ergogenic effect.

 

[sladerunner69]

I wonder what the standard convsersion rate for pregnenelone>dhea is? I feel that I recieve some of the same effects within my pregnenlone supplementation as DHEA, because of the pathway, though it is certainyl not as potent. The pregenelone should provide some benefits through other pathways like allopregnenelone and progesterone as well, though it tends to have dissociation as a feeling. A lot fo the effects like estrogen and dissociation can be attenuated by strong thyroid too, I bet.

 

[haidut]

I wonder what the standard convsersion rate for pregnenelone>dhea is? I feel that I recieve some of the same effects within my pregnenlone supplementation as DHEA, because of the pathway, though it is certainyl not as potent. The pregenelone should provide some benefits through other pathways like allopregnenelone and progesterone as well, though it tends to have dissociation as a feeling. A lot fo the effects like estrogen and dissociation can be attenuated by strong thyroid too, I bet.

This is actually a fascinating topic, which if researched properly can hod the key to using only pregnenolne for HRT in both men and women. The rate of DHEA synthesis is determined by the activity of the enzyme 17,20-lyase. The activity of that enzyme is inhibited by DHEA, and higher levels of pregnenolone or progesterone. So, there seems to be a negative feedback loop. Lower doses pregnenolone stimulate 17,20-lyase while higher doses stimulate 17-HSD. So, a higher dose pregnenolone can actually result in lower levels of DHEA compared to no supplementation. That matches well with the other study I posted on pregnenolone being an inhbitor of androgen synthesis beyond certain level. The in vitro concentration beyond which pregnenolone started being inhibitory was 2uM/L, which is probably achievable with 10mg pregnenolone. It also matches with reports from people that doses of under 10mg pregnenolone (as in Pansterone) give them a boost in libido and muscle strength (so increase in androgens) while higher doses having neutral or even negative effects on the parameters. There aren't many things that stimulate 17,20-lyase directly and most of them are not something you want to experiment with. Aldosterone, alcohol, ACTH, and low blood sugar stimulate 17,20-lyase. Insulin, estrogen, and cortisol are the primary endogenous inhibitors. If there is a safe substance that can increase 17,20-lyase activity, combined with the proper dose pregnenolone it can make even T supplementation obsolete, and it would be much safer than direct T use.
Needless to say, I am in hot pursuit of this unicorn

 

[superhuman]

@haidut any idea of the "correct" pregnenolone dosage(range) to stimulate the 17,20- lyase so you get the androgenic effect from preg ? and is it a daily dosage thing or can you divide that dosage to frequent daily dosages etc ? in terms of how long lasting the preg will be

 

[haidut]

@haidut any idea of the "correct" pregnenolone dosage(range) to stimulate the 17,20- lyase so you get the androgenic effect from preg ? and is it a daily dosage thing or can you divide that dosage to frequent daily dosages etc ? in terms of how long lasting the preg will be

Like I said in my post, staying below 10mg per dose should be OK. You can probably repeat that dose a few times daily. Teh human studies with mental issues found biggest benefit from 30mg daily, and that is probably no coincidence as another unrelated study found that relief from depression, schizophrenia, bipolar, autism, etc was strongly correlated with increase of DHEA levels. So, the 30mg pregnenolone probably raised DHEA unlike the higher doses. The study with schizophrenia using 500mg daily also found DHEA-S increase but it was very small.

 

[superhuman]

Thank you

 

[A.R]

This is actually a fascinating topic, which if researched properly can hod the key to using only pregnenolne for HRT in both men and women. The rate of DHEA synthesis is determined by the activity of the enzyme 17,20-lyase. The activity of that enzyme is inhibited by DHEA, and higher levels of pregnenolone or progesterone. So, there seems to be a negative feedback loop. Lower doses pregnenolone stimulate 17,20-lyase while higher doses stimulate 17-HSD. So, a higher dose pregnenolone can actually result in lower levels of DHEA compared to no supplementation. That matches well with the other study I posted on pregnenolone being an inhbitor of androgen synthesis beyond certain level. The in vitro concentration beyond which pregnenolone started being inhibitory was 2uM/L, which is probably achievable with 10mg pregnenolone. It also matches with reports from people that doses of under 10mg pregnenolone (as in Pansterone) give them a boost in libido and muscle strength (so increase in androgens) while higher doses having neutral or even negative effects on the parameters. There aren't many things that stimulate 17,20-lyase directly and most of them are not something you want to experiment with. Aldosterone, alcohol, ACTH, and low blood sugar stimulate 17,20-lyase. Insulin, estrogen, and cortisol are the primary endogenous inhibitors. If there is a safe substance that can increase 17,20-lyase activity, combined with the proper dose pregnenolone it can make even T supplementation obsolete, and it would be much safer than direct T use.
Needless to say, I am in hot pursuit of this unicorn :)

Let's hope you find this unicorn!

 

[sladerunner69]

This is actually a fascinating topic, which if researched properly can hod the key to using only pregnenolne for HRT in both men and women. The rate of DHEA synthesis is determined by the activity of the enzyme 17,20-lyase. The activity of that enzyme is inhibited by DHEA, and higher levels of pregnenolone or progesterone. So, there seems to be a negative feedback loop. Lower doses pregnenolone stimulate 17,20-lyase while higher doses stimulate 17-HSD. So, a higher dose pregnenolone can actually result in lower levels of DHEA compared to no supplementation. That matches well with the other study I posted on pregnenolone being an inhbitor of androgen synthesis beyond certain level. The in vitro concentration beyond which pregnenolone started being inhibitory was 2uM/L, which is probably achievable with 10mg pregnenolone. It also matches with reports from people that doses of under 10mg pregnenolone (as in Pansterone) give them a boost in libido and muscle strength (so increase in androgens) while higher doses having neutral or even negative effects on the parameters. There aren't many things that stimulate 17,20-lyase directly and most of them are not something you want to experiment with. Aldosterone, alcohol, ACTH, and low blood sugar stimulate 17,20-lyase. Insulin, estrogen, and cortisol are the primary endogenous inhibitors. If there is a safe substance that can increase 17,20-lyase activity, combined with the proper dose pregnenolone it can make even T supplementation obsolete, and it would be much safer than direct T use.
Needless to say, I am in hot pursuit of this unicorn :)

Perhaps a very non-estrogenic liquor such as potatoe vodka or gin would be helpful? Or maybe it would have to be a synthetic compound that could influence the 17,20-lyase receptor while hopefully not causing any of the side effects...

 

[sladerunner69]

10mg per dose sounds miniscule to me- I doubt I would even feel such a small dose. As a pst-finasteride sufferer I can attest that 100-150mg orally daily has definitely helped my libido and has returned spontaneous erections along with a small amount of dhea. According to your explanatio above, it sounds like dhea is crucial to supplement if I am taking higher doses of preg because most of my preg is hoepfuly being converted to allopreg which studies have proven is very low among finasteride users. The supplemental DHEA will hopefulyl fill in my lowerred dht and t.

with 5a-dhp though I thinkt he pregenenlone is a bit redundant so maybe I should try lowering the dosage to 10mg 3x a day with 5-10 drops of 5adhp and that might give me a good allopregnenlone/androgen effect that I am looking for.

 

[haidut]

10mg per dose sounds miniscule to me- I doubt I would even feel such a small dose. As a pst-finasteride sufferer I can attest that 100-150mg orally daily has definitely helped my libido and has returned spontaneous erections along with a small amount of dhea. According to your explanatio above, it sounds like dhea is crucial to supplement if I am taking higher doses of preg because most of my preg is hoepfuly being converted to allopreg which studies have proven is very low among finasteride users. The supplemental DHEA will hopefulyl fill in my lowerred dht and t.

with 5a-dhp though I thinkt he pregenenlone is a bit redundant so maybe I should try lowering the dosage to 10mg 3x a day with 5-10 drops of 5adhp and that might give me a good allopregnenlone/androgen effect that I am looking for.

A dose of 10mg is not miniscule. Human studies showed that even 1mg daily had a very pronounced effects on stress and improved sleep. The 30mg - 50mg daily also happens to be average daily production, so that is what the body seems to produce without overwhelming the downstream steroidogenic enzymes.

 

[redlight]

I do much better with topical dhea

 

[haidut]

I do much better with topical dhea

Yes, forgot to mention that aspect. Human studies showed that topical DHEA favors the androgen pathways a lot more than oral use. So, in people prone to estrogenic conversion of DHEA maybe topical route is the way to go

 

[sladerunner69]

A dose of 10mg is not miniscule. Human studies showed that even 1mg daily had a very pronounced effects on stress and improved sleep. The 30mg - 50mg daily also happens to be average daily production, so that is what the body seems to produce without overwhelming the downstream steroidogenic enzymes.

Wow that is interesting... worth it to check out a lowerred dosage for a while and see if it increases the androgenic activity. Would 5a-dhp result in downregulation of this 17,20 lyase??

 

[haidut]

Wow that is interesting... worth it to check out a lowerred dosage for a while and see if it increases the androgenic activity. Would 5a-dhp result in downregulation of this 17,20 lyase??

Not much info on the effects of progesterone metabolites on 17,20-lyase activity. Progesterone is known to inhibit it and also 17,20-lyase strongly prefers 17-OH-pregnenolone as a source for DHEA synthesis. In rodents and some other animals it is the other way around and that is why in those animals progesterone seems to be very androgenic and boost T/DHT a lot. So, in humans, pregnenolone is the way to go for DHEA synthesis while progesterone seems to be mostly an estrogen antagonist.