DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

[anniejohnson]

In an interview with Danny Roddy, @haidut mentioned that someone he knows is using DHEA and progesterone in combination. The acquaintance is a former user of anabolic steroids and apparently cannot tell the different between the DHEA/Progesterone combination and his former "stack."

I believe they were discussing ratios of progesterone to DHEA as something like 3:1, which is apparently what Peat currently uses. I believe that when Peat was younger, he used a lower ratio.

The interview is very long, at least 3 hours, and I don't have the time right now to go back and find Haidut's quotes. He might have mentioned that his acquaintance used more like a 6 to 1 ratio, with 5 mg of DHEA, a few times a day.

Anyway, has anyone else tried something like this?

I was thinking of trying 5 mg DHEA in olive oil and 15 mg of progesterone, although it is difficult for me to guess how much progesterone I am getting from the progest E product.

 

[johnwester130]

onasnatura make a good liquid progesterone.

about 8mg per drop.

 

[anniejohnson]

It looks like her vitamin E / progesterone product violates Ray Peat's patent.

 

[Kram]

Haidut sells a product that has progesterone and DHEA in a 1:1 ratio and you may find some testimonials in the below thread. I believe I have heard him say 3:1 ratio may be optimal (see 'The Requirements For An Optimal Anticatabolic / Anabolic Substance ').

CortiNon - Liquid Progesterone/DHEA Mix

 

[johnwester130]

It looks like her vitamin E / progesterone product violates Ray Peat's patent.

you can't patent vitamin e and progesterone mixed in a bottle

 

[Tbone107]

Would it be more beneficial to use pregnenolone instead of progesterone in the same ratio?

 

[haidut]

In an interview with Danny Roddy, @haidut mentioned that someone he knows is using DHEA and progesterone in combination. The acquaintance is a former user of anabolic steroids and apparently cannot tell the different between the DHEA/Progesterone combination and his former "stack."

I believe they were discussing ratios of progesterone to DHEA as something like 3:1, which is apparently what Peat currently uses. I believe that when Peat was younger, he used a lower ratio.

The interview is very long, at least 3 hours, and I don't have the time right now to go back and find Haidut's quotes. He might have mentioned that his acquaintance used more like a 6 to 1 ratio, with 5 mg of DHEA, a few times a day.

Anyway, has anyone else tried something like this?

I was thinking of trying 5 mg DHEA in olive oil and 15 mg of progesterone, although it is difficult for me to guess how much progesterone I am getting from the progest E product.

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

 

[nbznj]

What’s a low dose of t3? I tend to think that t3 should be taken at 25mcg per day ish. That’s what put my free t3 levels right at the top of the normal range with tsh=0.2 (which scared my endo, funny)

 

[Tbone107]

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

Just out of curiosity.. what do you think the main difference would be if you swapped the progesterone for pregnenolone

 

[tankasnowgod]

I have also found that progesterone and DHEA can be great for adding muscle. I started using 12 mg preg and 6 dhea on the inner elbow, and in a week or two, biceps felt and looked " jacked." Didnt get this with topical application in other areas, but it might have been rubbing off on my clothes or sheets. Review haiduts "anti catabolic" thread posted earlier, I am really impressed so far.

 

[xetawaves]

I love DHEA, especially combined with progesterone, but why does it make my hair fall out?

 

[anniejohnson]

Thanks. I didn't realize that there was already a idealabs product for this--very interesting. I will likely try DHEA+progesterone along with some lifting and hopefully report back.

 

[Tbone107]

I have also found that progesterone and DHEA can be great for adding muscle. I started using 12 mg preg and 6 dhea on the inner elbow, and in a week or two, biceps felt and looked " jacked." Didnt get this with topical application in other areas, but it might have been rubbing off on my clothes or sheets. Review haiduts "anti catabolic" thread posted earlier, I am really impressed so far.

Are you using preg or prog? Saw both in the post and am thinking about experimenting for myself

 

[tankasnowgod]

Are you using preg or prog? Saw both in the post and am thinking about experimenting for myself

Both, but it is progesterone that really seems to have made a difference.

 

[Tbone107]

Both, but it is progesterone that really seems to have made a difference.

Hmmm I’ve hesitated to try prog due to other males saying it caused libido problems. Was this not the case for you. What ratio were you using for both?

 

[Waynish]

And not everything anabolic is testosterone-promoting, I'd say.

 

[tankasnowgod]

And not everything anabolic is testosterone-promoting, I'd say.

Yeah, it's probably nothing to do with anabolism, and everything to do with opposing cortisol.

 

[haidut]

What’s a low dose of t3? I tend to think that t3 should be taken at 25mcg per day ish. That’s what put my free t3 levels right at the top of the normal range with tsh=0.2 (which scared my endo, funny)

Bodybuilders are known to use 100mcg-300mcg T3 daily to lose weight when needed to make a specific category. At those doses T3 would of course lead to some catabolic effects of mostly on fat and MAYBE a tiny amount of muscle simply due to the enhanced thermogenesis. Not much different from DNP, yet most doctors and athletes do not call DNP "catabolic". In fact, they even call is "muscle spairing" and targetting fat only. Well, guess what, T3 is the pretty much the same when it comes to tissue recomposition.
DNP muscle catabolism : steroids
is dnp catabolic?

 

[haidut]

Just out of curiosity.. what do you think the main difference would be if you swapped the progesterone for pregnenolone

Progesterone has a direct GR blocking effect while pregnenolone's anti-cortisol effects seem to be more indirect. Also, progesterone is only one step away from androstenedione and there is evidence that gonads may be able to convert P4 directly into T. My guess is that just like adding DHEA to pregnenolone makes it a whole different animal, the same happens when adding it to P4. There are studies showing DHEA increases steroidogenesis in the gonads, and this is why I posted the thread on raising serum androgens by applying pregnenolone, DHEA, etc on the scrotum. There is a chance a progesterone/DHEA combination may be even more effective when it comes to gonadal stimulation or maybe it is simply from blocking cortisol so well.

 

[Arnold Grape]

Ehh — Beg to differ with the aforementioned claims. Not sure if this is totally relative, but low dose Dhea/ Progesterone virtually subtracted any muscle tone that I had, and I ate all day. It did ameliorate depression symptoms, save for when I stood before full length mirrors.