Despite Striking Increase In Dieting And Exercise, Obesity Is Skyrocketing

[Broken man]

Introducing The Croissant Diet - Fire In A Bottle good one.

 

[LLight]

Jimmy Moore has been doing a Keto diet now longer than anyone else in modern times, and likely longer than anyone in history. Even when the Keto diet is started for children with epilepsy, it only lasts 2-3 years. Moore jumped on the Keto bandwagon before anyone else, and has maintained it longer than anyone else.

But again, I don't understand why anyone would expect anything different from muscle wasting on a true ketogenic diet. The two macronutrients most important for muscles are protein and carbohydrate. If you eliminate one and seriously restrict the other, muscle wasting is exactly what you would expect, along with fat gain from a lowered metabolism and 80% (or more) of fat in the diet. Moore is relevant because his condition proves exactly what would be expected to happen long term on a ketogenic diet.

And I don't understand why anyone fell for this keto idea in the first place. Low Carb could at least be painted as fun, "The Steak and Salad Superdiet!" But the "Eat Butter and Mayonnaise like a Meal" diet just doesn't have the same sort of appeal.

If you have long term studies of adults doing an 80% fat keto diet supervised for six months to a year, by all means, post them.

There must exist tons of people (they may not produce podcast or write books) following carb restricted / keto diets for as long as him or even longer and are not fat, or are they fat and devoid of muscles but they are hidden from us by the Keto Industry? Again, I do not understand why you focus so much on that one guy, there must exist hundred potential reasons for him to be fat and in bad health on a ketogenic diet. Nobody said it is the panacea that will save you from the multiple other reasons that could induce fat gains and bad health (lack of sleep, stress, for example).

I would not advocate a restricted protein ketogenic diet long term myself, but I recognize that, as other means like a vegan diet or fasting, it can have a therapeutic action regarding chronic diseases, done in the short term. What could be best is cycling periods of time which are either protein restricted or not.

Ketones are glucose and protein sparing, we have already talked about that, so that's why you don't have to "expect muscle wasting" (and that's why a guy fasting for more than 1 year is not dead during it). And I'm not sure where you have seen a lowered metabolism from a keto diet (where calories are not restricted more than what hunger dictates of course), I will need data on this one again (and no, lowered T3 is not an argument because T3 is supposedly needed for carbs metabolism, so a decrease is expected). Some people doing a keto diet report having more energy (but I guess "it's the cortisol") and the ones that loose fat clearly do not have a lowered metabolism.

There is no one and only ketogenic diet (i.e. a diet that elevates the blood ketones concentration), and I'm not interested in versions that do not respect simple dietetic rules like restricting PUFA and processed foods.

I'm pretty sure that the average keto guy eat more meat and animal proteins (you will tell me they do not follow a keto diet then?) than the average SADer, or even here where some people are afraid of meat.

 

[Zigzag]

Introducing The Croissant Diet - Fire In A Bottle good one.

This was an interesting read.

 

[haidut]

I'm not getting the 'despite'. Why wouldn't anyone, mainstream or otherwise, expect them to increase together? Isn't increased obesity a key contributor ('cause'?) of dieting and exercise?

That's what the study's (frustrated) tone basically is. It kinds of asks the question "why are we still gaining weight even though all the measures recommended for losing weight are being adopted at higher than ever before rates?"

 

[tankasnowgod]

I'm pretty sure that the average keto guy eat more meat and animal proteins (you will tell me they do not follow a keto diet then?) than the average SADer, or even here where some people are afraid of meat.

Exactly. They aren't following a true keto diet, just a low carb diet diet that's been re-branded with a trendy buzzword. Check how a ketogenic diet is employed for epilepsy- Ketogenic Diet

One of the diets employed for epilepsy is the MAD, which stand for Modified Atkins Diet. It does permit more protein than the Classic Ketogenic diet. There is also the MCT Oil diet, which uses quite a bit of MCT, and also allows for more protein, as MCTs produce ketones at a greater rate. Ask anyone you know doing a keto diet if they know the difference between those three. My guess is they don't have a clue.

Epileptic kids on a keto diet aren't eating lots of steak, but they have a much more serious goal than just trying to lose some weight following a fad diet. They are trying to control seizures and cure a disease.

Here's an example meal from a site that helps kids and families doing the ketogenic diet. Check out the macro breakdown. 52g Fat, 9g Protein, 5g Carbs- http://www.matthewsfriends.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/frankfurter-risotto.pdf

And that is my exact point. Not only is a true keto diet probably the worst possible diet to try and preserve lean mass while losing fat, the vast majority of people following this tread (including the so-called leaders) have no clue what they are truly advocating, and not truly following the diet.

 

[LLight]

They aren't following a true keto diet, just a low carb diet diet that's been re-branded with a trendy buzzword. Check how a ketogenic diet is employed for epilepsy- Ketogenic Diet

I perfectly know how trash a "true keto diet" can be and I'm happy to know you care for those children (same for me).

Semantic issues put aside, any diet inducing ketones over a certain threshold can be called ketogenic, and I've yet to see the real evidences that a ketogenic diet will dissolve one's muscles.

Please check Dominic d'Agostino or Luis Villasenior.

 

[haidut]

I was just listening to a podcast that had Dr. Anthony Jay on from the Mayo Clinic talking about estrogen. He was saying testosterone has tanked particularly since the 80's as well. Testosterone was first able to be measured in the 1920's and was double what it is today. In the 80's, the male average was around 500. In the 90's it was about 400 and it's presently closer to 300. That's a precipitous drop. This is one of the studies he referenced: Population-Level Decline in Serum Testosterone Levels in American Men

I agree with that. The ongoing drop in sperm count / male fertility since the 1970s matches that data perfectly. That's really the underlying goal of my post - to convey that maybe the obesity rates currently seen are mostly due to an endocrine disorder and not so much overeating. Keep in mind animals around us are also gaining weight, and it is hard to argue that they are watching TV all day and not moving at all. Btw, the argument that we do not move enough has also been shown to be false. We move at least as much if not more than our "wild" ancestors.
Modern, Lazy People Burn as Many Calories as Hunter-Gatherers, So What Makes Us Fat?
Opinion | Warnings From a Flabby Mouse
It's Not Just Us: Even American Animals Are Getting Fatter

So, it's not the calories and it is not the (lack of) movement. That leaves endocrine disruptors, stress, pharma drugs, food composition, etc as remaining causes and all of these tend to have a decimating effects on T levels in males and progesterone levels in females.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I perfectly know how trash a "true keto diet" can be and I'm happy to know you care for those children (same for me).

Semantic issues put aside, any diet inducing ketones over a certain threshold can be called ketogenic, and I've yet to see the real evidences that a ketogenic diet will dissolve one's muscles.

Please check Dominic d'Agostino or Luis Villasenior.

Well, if words don't mean anything anymore, why not just eat 500 grams of carbs a day, throw in a bit of coconut oil, and call it a keto diet?

The way it's presented is simply a marketing gimmick, and then it's just no different from Low Carb diets. It's not a semantic issue, it's just a new name for the exact same diet that's been promoted since the 1940s.

And if you're so big into low carb diets, why would you be on the Ray Peat forum anyway?

 

[LLight]

Well, if words don't mean anything anymore, why not just eat 500 grams of carbs a day, throw in a bit of coconut oil, and call it a keto diet?

The way it's presented is simply a marketing gimmick, and then it's just no different from Low Carb diets. It's not a semantic issue, it's just a new name for the exact same diet that's been promoted since the 1940s.

And if you're so big into low carb diets, why would you be on the Ray Peat forum anyway?

If you want to discuss about a diet that may represent maybe less than 5% of all the followers of diets than induce ketones such that they can be called ketogenic, you're free to do that.

I'm not "big into low carb diets". I like not to live in an echo chamber if I can. There are interesting discussions here, interesting studies posted and interesting people and feedbacks. Moreover, I think the Ray Peat approach is more than just high carb vs low carb. The constant low carb bashing, more so when done with dubious arguments, is a bit tiring.

 

[Blossom]

Ray is very flexible. He has said it’s possible to be healthy on both a vegan and a carnivore diet. I think he sets a nice example of respecting how others choose to eat and discussing issues surrounding specific diets to help people avoid common pitfalls.

 

[tara]

Youre relativizing to much, its not like peat didnt say anything or like he said everything... there is a baseline
Siping milk and juice, adding sugar, maybe dairy, eating organ meats-from time to time... eating more than 2.000 calories, 3-4.000 or more... eating often, sometimes eating while sleeping,,, carbs being the turbo main macro, eating 100 gram of proteins, carb ratio 4:1 or more, some fat or no fat, only saturated fat, salt salt salt, coffee coffee coffee...
and then some sups are also very often recommended... taking thyroid also...
So you cant say that there isnt any peat diet at all...

This is a set of dietary guidelines that some people have cobbled together and tried after reading Peat's work. Others have come up with various diets that differ quite a lot from this, also inspired by Peat's work. AIUI, it's not what Peat has said everyone should do, and I don't think it really describes what he's been doing himself, either, though it might have some aspects like that.

Also i dont accept weight loss from 35%bf to 30 or 30 to 25%, anything can do that, give me weight loss under 20%bf, or better under 15 (im between 15-20% bf btw, closer to 15)
183 cm, 85 kg
I consider my self fat and slightly obese

Why? That weight/height ratio is around the top of the 'normal' BMI range and the bottom of the so-called 'overweight' range.
I agree that sitting all day is stressful. Hope you can make chances to move.

That's what the study's (frustrated) tone basically is. It kinds of asks the question "why are we still gaining weight even though all the measures recommended for losing weight are being adopted at higher than ever before rates?"

It's odd, isn't it? I mean, back when most people used to spend much of each day working, traveling, and if they were lucky playing using their bodies there would have been a lot less 'exercise', in the sense of dedicated movement for no other purpose. But probably a lot more physical movement/work happening as part of daily life. The idea of prescribing 'exercise' to lots of people seems to me to be a symptom of a generally much less physical culture. If more people report 'exercising' than they did 70 years ago, I wouldn't have thought it indicated that people are in general using their bodies more.

50 years ago, almost all children in my city walked or bicycled to school, and a good proportion of adults biked or bused (which involves walking) to work. There are efforts, and some gains being made, to start to get back to a bit more of that, but there are still way more people driving kids to school and themselves to work. And there are way more sedentary jobs. And way more time spent at screens outside of work too. Exercise seems like an attempt to counteract some of the worst effects of this.

 

[lampofred]

It's odd, isn't it? I mean, back when most people used to spend much of each day working, traveling, and if they were lucky playing using their bodies there would have been a lot less 'exercise', in the sense of dedicated movement for no other purpose. But probably a lot more physical movement/work happening as part of daily life. The idea of prescribing 'exercise' to lots of people seems to me to be a symptom of a generally much less physical culture. If more people report 'exercising' than they did 70 years ago, I wouldn't have thought it indicated that people are in general using their bodies more.

50 years ago, almost all children in my city walked or bicycled to school, and a good proportion of adults biked or bused (which involves walking) to work. There are efforts, and some gains being made, to start to get back to a bit more of that, but there are still way more people driving kids to school and themselves to work. And there are way more sedentary jobs. And way more time spent at screens outside of work too. Exercise seems like an attempt to counteract some of the worst effects of this.

Same reason that autism is increasing and fertility is dropping. Pollution in air and water, EMF, GMO foods, lack of sunlight, etc. I think screens have a negative effect because of blue light exposure, but I don't think sedentarism has much to do with it, maybe 20%, but I think 80% of it is due to the degrading environment. I read on here a while ago that even wild animals who forage for food all day are gaining weight.

 

[tara]

Same reason that autism is increasing and fertility is dropping. Pollution in air and water, EMF, GMO foods, lack of sunlight, etc. I think screens have a negative effect because of blue light exposure, but I don't think sedentarism has much to do with it, maybe 20%, but I think 80% of it is due to the degrading environment. I read on here a while ago that even wild animals who forage for food all day are gaining weight.

I agree that environmental toxins and lack of sunlight (another side-effect of increased screen use and less time in active transport, work, play etc) are probably also involved.

 

[boxers]

I agree with that. The ongoing drop in sperm count / male fertility since the 1970s matches that data perfectly. That's really the underlying goal of my post - to convey that maybe the obesity rates currently seen are mostly due to an endocrine disorder and not so much overeating. Keep in mind animals around us are also gaining weight, and it is hard to argue that they are watching TV all day and not moving at all. Btw, the argument that we do not move enough has also been shown to be false. We move at least as much if not more than our "wild" ancestors.
Modern, Lazy People Burn as Many Calories as Hunter-Gatherers, So What Makes Us Fat?
Opinion | Warnings From a Flabby Mouse
It's Not Just Us: Even American Animals Are Getting Fatter

So, it's not the calories and it is not the (lack of) movement. That leaves endocrine disruptors, stress, pharma drugs, food composition, etc as remaining causes and all of these tend to have a decimating effects on T levels in males and progesterone levels in females.

But even they say its about calories. From the link you posted “While the authors don’t look at diet in much detail, they add that their findings suggest that high energy intake — eating too much — is responsible for the West’s obesity epidemic, rather than too little energy expenditure. They do note, however, that physical activity is well-known to have many beneficial health effects in addition to any role in weight management.”

 

[Sofia]

I understood that people dont have energy and gain weight because they cant use carbs. so they take niacinamide in order to use carbs. Otherwise all those sugars that Peat recomends go to bodyfat to be stored. And they still dont have energy even if they go on diet recommended by R.P.eat.