Depression May Be Caused By Estrogen In Females And Cortisol In Males

haidut

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A very interesting study, which points to a potential difference in the depression etiology between the sexes. However, given that cortisol is one of the strong activators of the aromatase enzyme, high cortisol also means high estrogen in males. The study openly discusses the effect of stress on raising estrogen, and the effects of estrogen and cortisol on increasing serotonin synthesis, reducing degradation, and increasing serotonin "receptor" activity, which once again points to the untenability of serotonin as a cure of depression or estrogen as youthful and desirable hormone.
Blocking estrogen in females and cortisol in males prevented the development of depression (learned helplessness), as did the perception of continued ability to exercise control over the situation - i.e. just as Peat said.

Estrogen-mediated effects on depression and memory formation in females. - PubMed - NCBI

"...In this scenario, low levels of estrogen as observed during estrus and diestrus would be associated with poor performance, moderate levels of estrogen would be associated with moderate levels of performance and very high levels of estrogen in response to stress would be associated with poor performance. In order to test which of these hypotheses was correct, one would need to know whether stress elevated or reduced endogenous levels of estradiol. We conducted this experiment and determined that exposure to the stressor of either tailshock or swim stress increases estrogen (Shors et al., 1999)"

"...In addition to serotonergic dysfunction, depression has been associated with disturbances in the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis (HPA) in humans. Drug-free depressed patients have enhanced levels of adrenal hormones and corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) in the blood (Banki et al., 1987). CRF and its receptors are prevalent in brain regions associated with affect such as the amygdala, the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, the cerebellum and the dorsal raphe nuclei. Interestingly, it is reported that an injection of CRF into laboratory animals can induce similar responses as depressed patients such as weight loss, sleep disturbances and fear of novelty (Nemeroff, 1998). From the previous discussion, it is clear that serotonin and adrenal hormones may contribute to the symptoms of depression."

"...Serotonergic neurons in the raphe of the rhesus macaque have also been found to contain estrogen inducible progestin receptors thus providing a direct target for the regulation of serotonergic function by ovarian hormones (Bethea, 1993). Ovarian hormones have also been shown to affect numerous factors regulating serotonin synthesis and serotonin levels in the central nervous system (see Bethea et al., 1999 for review). For example, ovarian hormones promote the induction of tryptophan hydroxylase, the rate-limiting enzyme in the synthesis of serotonin, and reduce serotonin reuptake transporter (SERT) mRNA expression in the raphe nuclei. In addition, numerous serotonergic receptor subtypes are reportedly regulated by ovarian steroids, as well as implicated in depression. For example, expression of the 5HT1A autoreceptor in the dorsal raphe is decreased by estrogen and progestin (Pecins-Thompson and Bethea, 1998). Estrogen has also been shown to increase the density of 5HT2A receptors in brain regions associated with mood (Fifa and Fillion, 1992)."

"...As discussed, many of the instances of depression in females are associated with levels of reproductive hormones and their fluctuations across time. The effect of stress on conditioning in females is sensitive to both these factors. First of all, the effect of stress is prevented by removal of ovarian hormones via ovariectomy (Wood and Shors, 1998) (Fig. 2A). Secondly, the effect can be prevented by administration of the estrogen antagonist, tamoxifen (Fig. 2B)."

"...As discussed, there is some evidence that a disruption in the HPA activity is associated with depression, at least in males. Interestingly, we have found that adrenal glucocorticoids are necessary for the enhancing effect of stress on conditioning in males (Fig. 5A), yet they do not contribute significantly to the impairment in females (Wood et al., 2000) (Fig. 5B). That adrenal steroids do not contribute is somewhat surprising since females under both stressed and unstressed conditions have much higher levels than males (Shors et al., 1999). None-theless, these results suggest that the sexually dimorphic effects of stress on conditioning are mediated by differing hormonal substrates—by adrenal hormones in males and ovarian hormones in females. Minimally, the data illustrate why we cannot assume that female expression of a disorder is simply the same as a male with the addition of ovarian hormones."

"...Whether or not the phenomenon just described has potential as a model for depression in females remains to be determined. If so, several contributing factors would have to be shown. For example, the ability to control the stressful event should ameliorate the deficit in performance."
 
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natedawggh

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I suffered from severe depression for years, and later developed outward signs of chronic high cortisol like stretch marks, hair loss, and weight gain. After getting my health in order my depression has disappeared and so have the outward signs of high cortisol with weight loss, hair regrowth, and stretch marks actually vanishing.
 

dookie

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@haidut

I think estrogen is the main culprit in depression for females and males alike.

In myself I found that even when I drank so much coffee that I started to have high cortisol side-effects, like the bloated sides of back, skinny legs but large belly, etc., it never got me depressed in the same way that estrogen does. It actually helped with depression, probably because of its anti-estrogen effects (it reduces water retention, face puffiness, emotionality, etc)
 
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haidut

haidut

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@haidut

I think estrogen is the main culprit in depression for females and males alike.

In myself I found that even when I drank so much coffee that I started to have high cortisol side-effects, like the bloated sides of back, skinny legs but large belly, etc., it never got me depressed in the same way that estrogen does. It actually helped with depression, probably because of its anti-estrogen effects (it reduces water retention, face puffiness, emotionality, etc)

I would agree. Also, the fact that vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist and it is an effective anti-depressant lends even more credibility to estrogen being the cause of depression for both sexes.
Vitamin E (alpha tocopherol) is effective anti-depressant
 

dookie

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@haidut

I find it funny they used the estrogen antagonist "tamoxifen", which is known to be rather toxic, yet even with those toxicities, they still claim it stops the stressor:

"The effect of stress .... can be prevented by administration of the estrogen antagonist, tamoxifen"
Estrogen-mediated effects on depression and memory formation in females

Given the other studies you have posted on estrogen, for example that estrogen causes seizures and aromatase inhibitors are a viable treatment option for that, I'm thinking it won't be long until it's recognized that estrogen is the main thing implicated in the development of things like dementia, etc. What do you think?
 
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haidut

haidut

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@haidut

I find it funny they used the estrogen antagonist "tamoxifen", which is known to be rather toxic, yet even with those toxicities, they still claim it stops the stressor:

"The effect of stress .... can be prevented by administration of the estrogen antagonist, tamoxifen"
Estrogen-mediated effects on depression and memory formation in females

Given the other studies you have posted on estrogen, for example that estrogen causes seizures and aromatase inhibitors are a viable treatment option for that, I'm thinking it won't be long until it's recognized that estrogen is the main thing implicated in the development of things like dementia, etc. What do you think?

I really hope you are right. Unfortunately, it seems that big pharma is pushing for estrogen treatment for dementia to stage a comeback. I am seeing more and more publications that say the Women Health Initiative (WHI) studies were wrong and the hormones were administered incorrectly, and that estrogen is in fact protective for women. So, I am afraid we'll have to endure another round of unnecessary deaths and dementia cases before it dawn on somebody in power that estrogen may be the cause of illness rather than the cure. The status of estrogen as protective is very important for Big Pharma because many other "treatments" currently approved by the FDA depend on that. Chemical castration in prostate cancer, SERM treatment for breast cancer, SSRI (which are highly estrogenic) for all kinds of mood and neurological issues, etc. If estrogen falls, it may drag the entire pharma industry with it. Estrogen and serotonin are closely linked and the fall of one of them can cause a lot of damage to profit and credibility.
 

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Is it possible for someone (probably females) to suffer depression due to a lack of progesterone (or other steroid hormones), rather than elevated estrogen/cortisol levels? I'm sure serotonin, estrogen & cortisol have something to do with it, but there are plenty of depressed people who are very thin. I for one, was most depressed (and a bit psychotic) at my thinnest. Anxiety also tends to be higher in very thin people.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Is it possible for someone (probably females) to suffer depression due to a lack of progesterone (or other steroid hormones), rather than elevated estrogen/cortisol levels? I'm sure serotonin, estrogen & cortisol have something to do with it, but there are plenty of depressed people who are very thin. I for one, was most depressed (and a bit psychotic) at my thinnest. Anxiety also tends to be higher in very thin people.

It is the ratio of progesterone to the other hormones that matters. So, if progesterone is low even if other steroids like estrogen and cortisol are "normal" then you are in a state of functional excess of these steroids. So, yes, upping progesterone would be a good thing to try. Low DHEA is also associated with depression in women. The thin people being depressed is due to serotonin. Serotonin is very catabolic and most people with severe depression (high serotonin) are very thin, as you noticed. Progesterone and DHEA (in low doses) inhibit serotonin synthesis.
 

StrongMom

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The thin people being depressed is due to serotonin. Serotonin is very catabolic and most people with severe depression (high serotonin) are very thin.

Why is that haidut? Is high level of serotonin reducing their appetite? Or, are they restricting their diet, anorexic etc., so that nutritional deficiencies are raising their serotonin?
 
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haidut

haidut

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Why is that haidut? Is high level of serotonin reducing their appetite? Or, are they restricting their diet, anorexic etc., so that nutritional deficiencies are raising their serotonin?

Serotonin is one of the most potent stimulators of ACTH release, which increases cortisol and estrogen. You can't really have healthy body measurements when the latter 2 hormones are high. The suppressed appetite is also due to serotonin as hibernating "animals" (humans) really do not need high appetite and serotonin is the driver of hibernation.
 

dookie

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Serotonin is one of the most potent stimulators of ACTH release, which increases cortisol and estrogen. You can't really have healthy body measurements when the latter 2 hormones are high. The suppressed appetite is also due to serotonin as hibernating "animals" (humans) really do not need high appetite and serotonin is the driver of hibernation.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Whenever I drink high amounts of coffee, an anti-serotonin thing, my appetite decreases markedly.
When I eat bananas, which contain serotonin and also irritate the gut creating serotonin, I sleep 13-14 hours per day (in a hibernation-like haze, with vivid uncomfortable dreams), am fatigued and zombie-like during the day, but my appetite becomes ravenous, to the point where can eat pounds of meat.

What could be the connection?
 
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Something doesn't make sense here.

Whenever I drink high amounts of coffee, an anti-serotonin thing, my appetite decreases markedly.
When I eat bananas, which contain serotonin and also irritate the gut creating serotonin, I sleep 13-14 hours per day (in a hibernation-like haze, with vivid uncomfortable dreams), am fatigued and zombie-like during the day, but my appetite becomes ravenous, to the point where can eat pounds of meat.

What could be the connection?

Your large coffee consumption is doing nothing but flooding your system with adrenaline which blunts your appetite.
 
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Really - that's all coffee is doing?

In your case, most likely, yes. Adrenaline makes you feel good, increases your temp, makes you energetic but you'll notice the tell-tale signs of cold nose, cold and dark colored feet.

I'd say for 95% of people on this forum, who drink coffee or take caffeine on their journey to Peating, find themselves getting worse. If liver cleansing is what's needed then stick to K2 and magnesium, for sugar oxidation stick to thyroid. Use of coffee comes at the end when liver is able to efficiently hold glycogen.
 

Tarmander

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In your case, most likely, yes. Adrenaline makes you feel good, increases your temp, makes you energetic but you'll notice the tell-tale signs of cold nose, cold and dark colored feet.

I'd say for 95% of people on this forum, who drink coffee or take caffeine on their journey to Peating, find themselves getting worse. If liver cleansing is what's needed then stick to K2 and magnesium, for sugar oxidation stick to thyroid. Use of coffee comes at the end when liver is able to efficiently hold glycogen.

I kind of agree with this. When I first started using coffee, the first month was hell, and then the following few months were pretty rough, but not as bad. You can push through if you are consistent. I am a male in my late 20s though, so perhaps someone older would not be able to push through. Coffee for me now is pure awesome relaxation.
 

Pet Peeve

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Cyproheptadine for a couple of months and then Ritanserin.

Whenever I drink high amounts of coffee, an anti-serotonin thing, my appetite decreases markedly.

Coffee increases dopamine. I quit coffee and take caffeine powder and a drop of Ritanserin and it feels exactly like coffee.
 
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dbh25

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I'd say for 95% of people on this forum, who drink coffee or take caffeine on their journey to Peating, find themselves getting worse. If liver cleansing is what's needed then stick to K2 and magnesium, for sugar oxidation stick to thyroid. Use of coffee comes at the end when liver is able to efficiently hold glycogen.
Yes, I think there is something to this. There was also a thread (can't remember all the details) about urinating more--> the less calories you are burning, or not metabolizing properly. If I drink 16 oz coffee on top of water, skim milk & oj- I seem to go at least a liter more. I'm trying to convince myself to cut the coffee for the short term, I just enjoy it so much :)
 

Peater Piper

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I'd say for 95% of people on this forum, who drink coffee or take caffeine on their journey to Peating, find themselves getting worse. If liver cleansing is what's needed then stick to K2 and magnesium, for sugar oxidation stick to thyroid. Use of coffee comes at the end when liver is able to efficiently hold glycogen.
Decaffeinated coffee may still be appropriate, if tolerated.

"Researchers analysed three different groups of mice over a 12 week period. Group one received a standard diet, group two had a high fat diet and group three was given a high fat diet plus a decaffeinated coffee solution."

"Coffee supplementation to a high fat diet significantly reversed levels of cholesterol (p<0.001), alanine aminotransferase (an enzyme which levels increase in the blood when the liver is damaged) (p<0.05), amount of fat in the liver cells (steatosis) (p<0.001) and ballooning degeneration (p<0.05). The combination of coffee and a high fat diet also reduced weight gain over time (p=0.028) in the mice. The study results suggest that coffee supplementation could cause variations in the intestinal tight junctions, which regulate the permeability of the intestine."

"The scientists also showed how coffee protects against NAFLD by raising levels of a protein called Zonulin (ZO)-1, which lessens the permeability of the gut.1 Experts believe that increased gut permeability contributes to liver injury and worsens NAFLD.2 People suffering from NAFLD can develop scaring of the liver, also known as fibrosis, which can progress to a potentially life-threatening condition known as cirrhosis."

Increase in coffee consumption could provide protective effect in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease
 
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Decaffeinated coffee may still be appropriate, if tolerated.

"Researchers analysed three different groups of mice over a 12 week period. Group one received a standard diet, group two had a high fat diet and group three was given a high fat diet plus a decaffeinated coffee solution."

"Coffee supplementation to a high fat diet significantly reversed levels of cholesterol (p<0.001), alanine aminotransferase (an enzyme which levels increase in the blood when the liver is damaged) (p<0.05), amount of fat in the liver cells (steatosis) (p<0.001) and ballooning degeneration (p<0.05). The combination of coffee and a high fat diet also reduced weight gain over time (p=0.028) in the mice. The study results suggest that coffee supplementation could cause variations in the intestinal tight junctions, which regulate the permeability of the intestine."

"The scientists also showed how coffee protects against NAFLD by raising levels of a protein called Zonulin (ZO)-1, which lessens the permeability of the gut.1 Experts believe that increased gut permeability contributes to liver injury and worsens NAFLD.2 People suffering from NAFLD can develop scaring of the liver, also known as fibrosis, which can progress to a potentially life-threatening condition known as cirrhosis."

Increase in coffee consumption could provide protective effect in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease

With the amount of positive research on this forum about coffee and caffeine, we all should be bathing and swimming in it on a daily basis.

Practically, coffee/caffeine should be consumed after the liver is working well and even then, it's a tool like any other in the Peat toolbox, it's not vital to maintaining a high metabolism if you have Thyroid on hand. I've made rapid progress ever since I took out coffee (decaf too) and caffeine from my diet. Temps peak at 98.6f/37c, feet and hands are warm.

Caffeine and dairy are the biggest hurdles when Peating imo. They're best left alone at least until one has reached a good level of health.
 
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