Depression, circulation problems etc.

[miko]

Hello. I have depression for many years and tried many antidepressant and none worked. My other symptoms are: poor circulation, pale skin, upper eyelid swelling, hands swelling, always cold, cold hands and feet (cold face skin), cold intolerance, dark circles under eyers, acne, seborrhea, anxiety, many symptoms of sympathetic nervous system overactivity - fast pulse, vasoconstriction, nervousness, tension, poor concentration and memory.

I use Ray Peat diet for many months and there is not much improvement.

Blood test results:

TSH: 4
I do not remember what was the FT4 and FT3 but it was in range
sodium: 138 (135-150)
potassium: 3,51 (3,60-5,10)
cortisol: 16 (upper limit 17-19, not sure at what time it was made)
ACTH: 42 (limit 46)
DHEA: 13,4 (upper limit 12,50)
17-oh progesterone: 2,42 (upper limit 2,30)
androstenedione: 3,09 (upper limit 3,10)
SHBG: 25 (13,5-71,40)
parathormon: 23 (15-68)

Do you think it's worth a try thyroid hormone for my symptoms?

 

[north]

Would you tell the details of your diet. I noticed very different results of the "diet" when changing different factors within the "Peat diet".

I would say your compensatory hormones looks high, but you probably know that already.
You could look into things such as salt, very high carb/sugar and light.
Judging from your symptoms i would say adrenaline is high which you could bring down with salt, etc.
Amount of calories is important, and to have a change for the body to get rid of dependance of compensatory hormones, its important to have a certain amount of calories.
Some people also have very good experience with taurine against adrenaline related things, however Peat doesn't recommend single amino acid supplements. Taurine is similar to glycine and GABA though, so maybe get more gelatin. Oxtail is good, since it has gelatin, minerals as well as it tastes very good with a ton of salt, so its a good salt-source. Low dose aspirin could also help with uncoupling and heat production, but you need a lot of sugars.
Caffeine is good but if you have high adrenal hormones you need to be extra careful with enough food if you drink coffee.

My personal experience is that fluid is very hard to handle in a non-optimal state. So sugars and nutrients from sources like honey, cheese, some whole fruits, potatoes, meats made a big difference for me. Also higher calories than i realized for many months.

Thyroid might be helpful and many have been helped by it, it is still needed to find the right dietary needs though.

 

[answersfound]

keep liquids low, focus on high salt foods.
sip coffee with a meal
raw carrots
high dose of aspirin is incredibly important for your recovery-i eat 5 meals a day and take a 325mg tablet after each meal
progest-e may help u
cyproheptadine can help move things in the right direction, will increase appetite too,
make sure you are constantly eating throughout the day. don't go more than 2 hours w/o eating

 

[miko]

Thanks for your answers.

my diet:

- avoiding PUFA,
- milk, butter, bread, cheese, raw carrot, apples - daily,
- liver, beef, potatoes, eggs - sometimes,

which food are rich in gelatin? jelly? :)

I need something stronger than diet. I know that diet can be helpful for disease preventing, but I do not have the energy, desire, motivation to life :/ I took a lot of drugs for depression without success (with many bad side effects).

I can't take coffee because it makes me more nervous, more sweating (from underarms).

You wrote that compensatory hormones are increased. Why is this compensation, for what? Low thyroid? Low sodium?

I have many symptoms of high androgens - baldness (hair loss from 17 years old), acne, high sebum secretion, a lot of hair on the body.

I think many of my problems comes from the very bad circulation (visible on my skin - pale, cold, with many inflammatory issues :/, mostly on my nose and jaw). I read that the thyroid hormone T3 cause vasodilation, warm skin etc. and this is very tempting for me.

I forgot to write that I have high cholesterole ale blood glucose (the fasting about 130-170)...so I can't take so much glucose/fructose rich foods. Maybe my calories are not properly burned (low heat, energy production), and this is another reason for which I look at T3.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Hi miko, it sounds to me like you are hypothyroid as you have all the symptoms. If you have been eating a Peat diet for many months and aren't seeing an improvement then you might try thyroid hormones.

 

[tara]

Hi,
More ideas to add to the ones above.
From you list of food, it's hard to tell how much of each you are eating.

My understanding from reading Peat is that starches, for instance from potatoes and bread, break down to all glucose, and are likely to raise blood glucose more than a corresponding amount of sugars from fruit, juice, honey, etc which break down to half glucose and half fructose. The fructose can also often be used as fuel more easily if the glucose is not getting into the cells easily. I think if you look at a chart of glycemic indices, you'll find bread and potatoes near the top, higher than most fruit.

Fruit and potatoes, but not bread, usually bring with them a decent amount of other nutrients, eg potassium, that help make good use of the sugar.

Other ideas for helping with sugar burning include getting extra B vitamins, and reducing fat if it is high. Have you tried niaciniamide? If so, did you notice a difference?I think diabetes is the only condition for which Peat has recommended brewers' yeast. You can pour hot water over it (or boil it?) drink the liquid, and leave the sediment. Or you can supplement B vitamins. Peat recommends that for lots of people.

When there are a lot of free fatty acids in the blood stream, either from a fatty meal or released under stress conditions, it makes it harder for the cells to burn sugar ('Randle cycle').

If you haven't read this article of Peat's, I'd recommend it.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gl ... etes.shtml

Yes, jelly can be made with gelatin. I mix gelatin with sugar and fruit juice to make OJ jellies.
Also connective tissue, eg in stocks cooked from cartilaginous joints, eg oxtail, knuckles.

I have trouble with full caffeine coffee too, so I drink weak decaf latte.

I think there are more things you can try nutrition-wise before knowing it won't be enough. Good luck.

 

[tara]

Another thought. Have you tried a week or two without wheat and gluten? Some people seem to do OK with wheat, but quite a few have trouble with it. Even without diagnosed celiac disease, it can still be messing with the GI tract, making it less able to absorb nutrients and more likely to let through junk into the system. I think it takes quite strong digestive juices to break down gluten, and those of us with weaker systems may not do it so well. Wheat doesn't give you anything nutrition-wise that you can't get from other sources, though it can taste good and be convenient.

 

[tara]

If you haven't read this article of Peat's, I'd recommend it.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gl ... etes.shtml

And this one:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/sugar-issues.shtml

 

[miko]

Thank you very much. I will try gluten-free diet with vitamin b supplementation and see if there are any effects.

 

[pboy]

how long have you been following that diet? its pretty low, almost absent in, vitamin C...its unlikely one thing causes such symptoms but it might

 

[miko]

This diet does not cause these symptoms because I have them for many years. I always tried to eat healthy, lots of vegetables and fruits. I think my problems are hormonal. I do not know exactly what hormones cause it. I know I have hard working adrenals, but don't know why ("only" stress?), and if it's possible that augmenting thyroid will shut them a little. I have read that adrenals could working hard if thyroid is low (compensating?)

 

[tara]

This diet does not cause these symptoms because I have them for many years. I always tried to eat healthy, lots of vegetables and fruits. I think my problems are hormonal. I do not know exactly what hormones cause it. I know I have hard working adrenals, but don't know why ("only" stress?), and if it's possible that augmenting thyroid will shut them a little. I have read that adrenals could working hard if thyroid is low (compensating?)

Can you give an idea of how much you are eating? How much protein? carbohydrates?
Have you checked whether your diet covers the basics of minerals and vitamins eg by loggoing in cronometer.com? It's generally helpful to get more calcium than phosphorus, and lower iron than RDI is usually OK.

When you say you tried different anti-depressants, do you know if they were all SSRIs? Did they have notible effects on you (desired or not)?

 

[miko]

I think I eat enough, I do not have an active lifestyle. I do not know how to replace energy from bread. I try to drink more milk and eat more fruit.

Not all of these antidepressants were SSRI's. I have tried other antidepressants, like tianeptine, mirtazapine, bupropion, agomelatine. I have tried many of SSRI group and these drugs cause me some worsening of my symptoms. I even tried cyproheptadine for 6 weeks, and it did not work.

I ordered some T3 hormone and I will try whether it will work. I feel that my depression may be from my poor circulation and metabolism in the brain. I have some vertigo and dizziness when I go outside to low temperature, and it gets worse when I'm moving.

 

[tara]

I think I eat enough, I do not have an active lifestyle. I do not know how to replace energy from bread. I try to drink more milk and eat more fruit.

Maybe you do eat enough. I've just read from a number of women who seem to think 1300-1400 cals is enough, 1800 is generous, and 300g carbs is overdoing it. Also growing young men who think 2500 is ample. I don't know that this is yor problem, but undereating will generally supress metabolism and mess with lots of things. As will any other deficiency that is limiting energy production (cronometer ...). Fuel shortage is one of the factors that can contribute to coffee-stress.

These days I don't eat a lot of grains, but long before coming across Peat, I went a long time with little wheat/gluten. Some digetive upset improved when I avoided it. At that time I was also avoiding much sugar and dairy. I ate more rice and potatoes for lunch and dinner, and cooked millet or buckwheat for breakfast. Some gluten-free bread for snacks. I wouldn't recommend that diet particularly - I prefer my current low grain high fruit habits. But it did seem to improve my digestion wen I cut the wheat. More milk and juice may work to replace some of the bread. But if you get cold really easily, I wonder if you need to watch out for drinking too much fluids. Curdling the milk for cottage cheese makes it more energy dense.

Not all of these antidepressants were SSRI's. I have tried other antidepressants, like tianeptine, mirtazapine, bupropion, agomelatine. I have tried many of SSRI group and these drugs cause me some worsening of my symptoms. I even tried cyproheptadine for 6 weeks, and it did not work.

Bad luck.

I feel that my depression may be from my poor circulation and metabolism in the brain. I have some vertigo and dizziness when I go outside to low temperature, and it gets worse when I'm moving.

This seems likely. I'm really noticing how cold-blooded I am. I usually have more energy when I'm warm and grind to a halt when cold. I'm currently assuming my migraines and slow-headedness are related to low brain energy too. If you notice getting cold makes things worse, you could seee what happens if you keep extra warm.

 

[miko]

Thank you :) I can't wait to see whether T3 will improve my blood circulation and metabolism :)

 

[tara]

Thank you :) I can't wait to see whether T3 will improve my blood circulation and metabolism :)

You will of course make your own decisions. My hunch is there could still be gains made in nutrition. Supplementing thyroid where there are nutritional deficiencies is likely to worsen the deficiencies.

I have not tried a T3 supplement. But I've read enough to gather it can cause problems. Please be cautious for the sake of safety, and use small doses. I think a healthy system will produce about 4mcg/hr. It has a short half life of a few hours. So taking a tiny morsel (eg 1 mcg) every couple of hours can have a significant effect. I haven't seen the pills, but I think it means dividing them up into very small bits. Some people add T4 to get through the night.

 

[miko]

Thank you. I am not afraid, I took corticosteroids and many antidepressants in the past, and they gave me nasty side effects. Depression is very dangerous disease - I would say that it's deadly disease... I will take very tiny doses of T3 at first, and then increase to larger doses. Tablets have 25 mcg, so I will cut them to 4-6 parts.

 

[tara]

Thank you. I am not afraid, I took corticosteroids and many antidepressants in the past, and they gave me nasty side effects. Depression is very dangerous disease - I would say that it's deadly disease... I will take very tiny doses of T3 at first, and then increase to larger doses. Tablets have 25 mcg, so I will cut them to 4-6 parts.

Yes, I believe you that depression can be deadly.
People have had sudden heart misbehaviour from too much T3. Not being afraid does not protect from such things.
1/6 of 25mcg ~4mcg. This is not a tiny dose. 1/24 of 25mcg ~ 1mcg could be expected to have a noticable effect. Maybe you would benefit from more, but caution suggests to start small.
Take care.

 

[miko]

I will try to cut it to such a small doses (if it's possible).

 

[treelady]

Hi milko... My experiences in case they may help...

T3 - I have been on thyroid for years but felt I had gotten hypo (after some seizures drugs which I discontinued) so my Dr gave me an rx for 5mcg T3 tablets to try. I cut them into four 1.25mcg pieces. I take my regular thyroid when I get up, then tried the 1.25 at lunch and dinner and 2.5 at bed. (I ALWAYS muscle test before taking.) I seemed to get heart fluttering for a few days after taking them even though I had a positive muscle test. I took hawthorn and it stopped so I have continued the T3 and don't seem to need the hawthorn anymore. I am now usually taking 2.5mcg after lunch, dinner and at bed and I am not dead tired any more, am more alert, motivated, and sometimes even have a feeling of well being... :)

Coffee - I hadn't had coffee for years because it made me nervous. For me the secret was putting a little coffee in alot of milk. I use 1/3 cup coffee and 1-2 cups milk and I sip it slowly, takes 1-2 hrs to finish. I often add a spoon of cocoa and sweetener and gelatin for a great breakfast that makes me feel very upbeat.