Depleting Serotonin With BCAA

[Vinero]

Lately I have been experimenting with taking individual BCAAs. I have taken Leucine and Isoleucine in high doses. I did not take Valine as I have read studies Valine can feed some endotoxin producing bacteria.
It seems that Leucine feels very different than Isoleucine.
When taking Leucine in doses 5 gram 3 x daily I can report the following:

high mental clarity, insomnia, anxiety, high glutamate feeling.

When taking Isoleucine in doses 5 gram 3 x daily:


high mental clarity, sedation, low mental energy, benzo-like feeling.

Combining Leucine and Isoleucine gives me a perfect balance of mental clarity and energy with no anxiety.

I wonder if Leucine is a precursor to glutamate and if isoleucine is a GABA agonist or something.

 

[TreasureVibe]

Does anyone else have positive experiences with BCAA for serotonin?

 

[Lokzo]

You're not concerned about INSULIN RESISTANCE from BCAA's?

Branched Chain Amino Acids Are Associated with Insulin Resistance Independent of Leptin and Adiponectin in Subjects with Varying Degrees of Glucose... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Frankdee20]

Lately I have been experimenting with taking individual BCAAs. I have taken Leucine and Isoleucine in high doses. I did not take Valine as I have read studies Valine can feed some endotoxin producing bacteria.
It seems that Leucine feels very different than Isoleucine.
When taking Leucine in doses 5 gram 3 x daily I can report the following:

high mental clarity, insomnia, anxiety, high glutamate feeling.

When taking Isoleucine in doses 5 gram 3 x daily:


high mental clarity, sedation, low mental energy, benzo-like feeling.

Combining Leucine and Isoleucine gives me a perfect balance of mental clarity and energy with no anxiety.

I wonder if Leucine is a precursor to glutamate and if isoleucine is a GABA agonist or something.

The Gabbapentinoids and one of these BCAA’s share the same receptor binding site in the brain.

 

[Jerimy Brown]

When I first got SS, I spent about 3 months, getting myself right... Thought I was pretty close to 100%, got complacent with diet and relapsed myself a bit. Not too bad, since I immediately recognized the symptoms this time, but...

The first time, I was so sensitive to everything, that BCAA's didn't seem to agree with me. This time around, I have been having really great results from them. I am probably just over analyzing everything my body is doing right now... I am on hyper alert with the most micro sensations right now . But wondering if any of you guys have any ideas around the following...

At first I was taking the recommended dose of the BCAA's I have, and they worked great, made me feel great. After a while I started noticing that I would feel a little dizzy and get very mild tingling in extremities. I wondered if I was potentially lowering serotonin too much so lowered the dose a bit, then they work great for a while, then rinse and repeat. What I am wondering if anyone here knows, is if the BCAA's are depleting anything I should be replacing, or does this sound like I just need to keep adjusting the dose according to my personal levels. I would just quit using them all together but they are so helpful with managing the SS effects, and really help with sleep in the evenings if I am having a bad day. Any ideas are appreciated. I will read back through this thread in the mean time and see what else I can learn.

TreasureVibe - They are working really well for me currently(Maybe a little too well?), but I was too sensitive in the very beginning of my SS

Also, this is the BCAA I have been using, if that's helpful
https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Machin..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=WA5NG1Y1D7NY3JM39QC3

 

[Jerimy Brown]

When I first got SS, I spent about 3 months, getting myself right... Thought I was pretty close to 100%, got complacent with diet and relapsed myself a bit. Not too bad, since I immediately recognized the symptoms this time, but...

The first time, I was so sensitive to everything, that BCAA's didn't seem to agree with me. This time around, I have been having really great results from them. I am probably just over analyzing everything my body is doing right now... I am on hyper alert with the most micro sensations right now . But wondering if any of you guys have any ideas around the following...

At first I was taking the recommended dose of the BCAA's I have, and they worked great, made me feel great. After a while I started noticing that I would feel a little dizzy and get very mild tingling in extremities. I wondered if I was potentially lowering serotonin too much so lowered the dose a bit, then they work great for a while, then rinse and repeat. What I am wondering if anyone here knows, is if the BCAA's are depleting anything I should be replacing, or does this sound like I just need to keep adjusting the dose according to my personal levels. I would just quit using them all together but they are so helpful with managing the SS effects, and really help with sleep in the evenings if I am having a bad day. Any ideas are appreciated. I will read back through this thread in the mean time and see what else I can learn.

TreasureVibe - They are working really well for me currently(Maybe a little too well?), but I was too sensitive in the very beginning of my SS

Also, this is the BCAA I have been using, if that's helpful
https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Machin..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=WA5NG1Y1D7NY3JM39QC3

Wanted to add one more thought to this... Today I tried 100mg of theanine with the BCAA's I mentioned and this seemed to lower symptoms very quickly for me... The last time I tried this, I did it for 3 days in a row and I felt like I lowered my serotonin too much, so this time I approached with caution, and did it earlier today, and this evening just let them wear off, and as they wore off, I notice I was feeling sleepy at my normal time, and the pulsing sensation I get in my head when serotonin is too high is gone now and only comes on for a short time after a meal, and I think I can probably sleep tonight without a dose of BCAA's to make it possible... Think I am going to have a decaf black tea with collagen instead and see if that's enough... First night since my little chocolate setback that's felt possible.

 

[methylenewhite]

There are some SSRI with some benefits like increase in BDNF, and I'm curious if we can get benefits apart from serotonin from AD medications avoiding rise in serotonin by combining them with serotonin depletion using BCAA?

 

[Frankdee20]

When I first got SS, I spent about 3 months, getting myself right... Thought I was pretty close to 100%, got complacent with diet and relapsed myself a bit. Not too bad, since I immediately recognized the symptoms this time, but...

The first time, I was so sensitive to everything, that BCAA's didn't seem to agree with me. This time around, I have been having really great results from them. I am probably just over analyzing everything my body is doing right now... I am on hyper alert with the most micro sensations right now . But wondering if any of you guys have any ideas around the following...

At first I was taking the recommended dose of the BCAA's I have, and they worked great, made me feel great. After a while I started noticing that I would feel a little dizzy and get very mild tingling in extremities. I wondered if I was potentially lowering serotonin too much so lowered the dose a bit, then they work great for a while, then rinse and repeat. What I am wondering if anyone here knows, is if the BCAA's are depleting anything I should be replacing, or does this sound like I just need to keep adjusting the dose according to my personal levels. I would just quit using them all together but they are so helpful with managing the SS effects, and really help with sleep in the evenings if I am having a bad day. Any ideas are appreciated. I will read back through this thread in the mean time and see what else I can learn.

TreasureVibe - They are working really well for me currently(Maybe a little too well?), but I was too sensitive in the very beginning of my SS

Also, this is the BCAA I have been using, if that's helpful
https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Machin..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=WA5NG1Y1D7NY3JM39QC3

BCAA's compete with Phenylalanine and Tryptophan. If you want to lower Serotonin, then also replace the Phenylalanine or Tyrosine. Otherwise Dopamine may drop as well. As far as early recovery from SS, you become sensitive to everything, and paradoxical reactions are the norm. That takes time to correct itself.

 

[Vinero]

BCAA's compete with Phenylalanine and Tryptophan. If you want to lower Serotonin, then also replace the Phenylalanine or Tyrosine. Otherwise Dopamine may drop as well. As far as early recovery from SS, you become sensitive to everything, and paradoxical reactions are the norm. That takes time to correct itself.

I have no problem taking BCAAs by themselves without tyrosine or phenylalanine. In fact, I have been taking BCAAs for 6 months every day with each meal. I don't experience any low-dopamine feelings.

 

[bromuda]

Anyone have a good brand of bcaa's? I'm using myproteins unflavoured bcaa and it's quite hard to mix. I have to do a lot of mouth swishing action to get it to dissolve

 

[methylenewhite]

I use pure BCAA powder and cheap blender. Mixes perfectly. Strange fact all pure bcaa users tend to claim about horrible taste but I find it taste so great lol.

 

[GmC]

Hi all,

I mentioned a similar idea in one of my other posts, but a new study just came out and I wanted to follow up on it. As many of you are aware the BCAA compete for transport into the brain (and other cells maybe??) with tryptophan, tyrosine, and phenylalanine. So, if you raise the ratio of BCAA to the other acids less tryptophan will get into the brain/cells and thus less serotonin will be produced. There have been many studies testing this idea and at this point it has been pretty well established that it works. The problem with this approach is that BCAAs will also deplete tyrosine, which is the amino acid from which dopamine is synthesized. So, the question scientists have been trying to answer is whether BCAA can be used to deplete serotonin only but leave dopamine unchanged. The reason for these tests is that in theory reducing serotonin and raising dopamine will have a positive effect on physical (and maybe) performance.
So, the attached study recently came out and it confirmed that one can reduce serotonin BUT keep dopamine intact (maybe even increase it a little) by ingesting a BCAA combo in the dosage 19mg/kg:12mg/kg:12mg/kg (leucine:isoleucine:valine) AND adding tyrosine at the dosage of 14mg/kg. To me this amounts to about taking 3500mg of BCAA and 1500mg tyrosine.
I am using the BCAA products from Ajinomoto since they are the only vendor claiming that the product is of pharmaceutical quality, and I have found that I don't get stomach irritation from their products.
My results so far are very positive. I get very calm and sleepy after taking the above combo. In fact it makes me feel almost exactly like taking cyproheptadine.
Speaking of the cyproheptadine, I thought that I can amplify the effects by doing cypro and BCAA combo together. So I took 2mg cypro and the BCAA+tyrosine combo together. Even more potent effect! My temperature rose to about 38 degrees Celsius, which is considered fever levels. I managed to get even more potent effects by doing cypro + (BCAA+tyrosine) + goat milk protein + gelatin. Both goat milk protein and gelatin have no tryptophan (actually goat milk protein has very very little) and contribute to the tryptophan depletion effect. I would not recommend the last option to anybody unless they have way too much serotonin that they want to get rid of. To me, this resulted in a heartbeat of over 100 BPM, temperature of 39 Celsius, and absolute inability to sleep. I felt like I had ingested some sort of supercharged gasoline and I kept turning and tossing all night while being madly thirsty no matter how much water I drink.
Given that drugs that increase dopamine in the body have very similar side effects on temperature, pulse, hunger, thirst, etc. I suspect that the last option depleted serotonin too much and/or raised dopamine too much. Keep in mind that since a lot of tyrosine will be getting into the brain/cells when you take it with BCAA, you WILL get an increase in dopamine TOGETHER with reduction in serotonin.
Moreover, BCAA seems to interfere with the absorption of both cysteine and methionine, and reduce their plasma levels by up to 50%.

A comparison of the effects of intravenous infusion of individual branched-chain amino acids on blood amino acid levels in man. - PubMed - NCBI

So, BCAAs taken alone or combination with tyrosine and/or gelatin (and other tryptophan deficient protein) interfere with the absorption and metabolism of all 3 "bad" amino acids Ray Peat talks about - tryptophan, cysteine, methionine.

Finally, to make the super cocktail even more potent one can add taurine, which has a number of good effects on the liver, mitochondria and brain (through GABA modulation). Ray Peat talks about it in some of his articles.

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/07 ... one-w.html

The human dosage is about 15g per day for the above effect to occur. So taking 5g with the BCAA+tyrosine combo seems like a very good way to give your health a super boost.

I would like to end with a question for the community. So far I have only been able to find studies on BCAAs depleting serotonin in the brain through the competitive inhibition of tryptophan transport. Ray Peat seems to think that the same happens in other cells/organs as well. Can somebody point me an article or interview of his where he says that? I just want to get more info on BCAA effects on cells other than brain cells.
Thanks in advance and I am looking forward to your comments/questions.

Hello everyone.

Thank you so much for all the information.

I want to start taking BCAA+gelatin but don't know which kind of gelatin Haidut is talking.
Is powder gelatin, is gelatin ( food ) with different flavors ?
Is Glycine the same as gelatin ?
Does BCAA works better with gelatin or Glycine?
How many mg of gelatin/glycine should I take with BCAA ?

Sorry about all this newbie questions !

Thank you so much guys.

Best regards.

 

[Jerimy Brown]

Hello everyone.

Thank you so much for all the information.

I want to start taking BCAA+gelatin but don't know which kind of gelatin Haidut is talking.
Is powder gelatin, is gelatin ( food ) with different flavors ?
Is Glycine the same as gelatin ?
Does BCAA works better with gelatin or Glycine?
How many mg of gelatin/glycine should I take with BCAA ?

Sorry about all this newbie questions !

Thank you so much guys.

Best regards.

I can tell you from all my research and experience, that this(below - "Great Lakes") seems to be the brand of gelatin that is regarded by most as great quality and good price... I will let someone else more knowledgable than me answer some of these other questions, I wouldn't want to give you any misinformation. When I was dealing with the worst of my SS symptoms, I was so desperate for relief that I think I over did it a bit with the gelatin(so be careful with that), but if you follow the suggested usage on the product you should be just fine. I found that taking gelatin right before bed would help me sleep better, so I was taking it in the evenings to help with that.

Collagen is a more processed form of gelatin that's easier on your system and dissolves easier in liquids/drinks, but you can experiment with the red can of Great Lakes too and see which works better for you.

Gelatin is better if you want to make gummy snacks, jello, or something more solid and edible (it thickens, but requires cooking/heat to dissolve into a liquid).

Great Lakes Collagen -
https://www.amazon.com/Great-Lakes-..._11_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1554920438&sr=1-11

Great Lakes Gelatin -
https://www.amazon.com/Great-Lakes-...8QSYQ55FNM6&psc=1&refRID=WBVV11M3R8QSYQ55FNM6

Hope this is helpful, and god speed on your recovery

 

[CLASH]

@haidut

Branched-chain amino acids ameliorate heart failure with cardiac cachexia in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

“BCAA were administered in drinking water from 11weeks of age, when cardiac hypertrophy was established but the cardiac function was preserved. Survival and the cardiac function were monitored, and animals were sacrificed at 21weeks of age and analyzed.”

“In HF rats, BCAA treatment decreased the heart rate, preserved the cardiac function, and prolonged survival. BCAA also prevented body weight loss, associated with preservation of the skeletal muscle weight. Moreover, gene expression related to mitochondrial biogenesis and function was increased with BCAA in skeletal muscles.”


Branched-chain amino acids protect against dexamethasone-induced soleus muscle atrophy in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

“Dexamethasone decreased total protein concentration of rat soleus muscles. Concomitant administration of BCAA reversed the decrease. Dexamethasone decreased mean cross-sectional area of soleus muscle fibers, which was reversed by BCAA.“

“Furthermore, dexamethasone-induced conversion from microtubule-associated protein 1 light chain 3 (LC3)-I to LC3-II, **which is an indicator of autophagy**, was blocked by BCAA. These findings suggest that BCAA decreased protein breakdown to prevent muscle atrophy. BCAA administration appears to be useful for prevention of steroid myopathy.”

 

[Anders86]

So I see there is a trend of fermented amino acids these days. Any thoughts? Would they be free of contaminants/poisons as Peat speak of?

One example.
CLEAN MACHINE, Clean BCAA, 5.03 oz (142.5 g)

 

[methylenewhite]

So I see there is a trend of fermented amino acids these days. Any thoughts? Would they be free of contaminants/poisons as Peat speak of?

One example.
CLEAN MACHINE, Clean BCAA, 5.03 oz (142.5 g)

Fermentation by-products could be even more dangerous then industrial contaminants.

 

[Anders86]

Fermentation by-products could be even more dangerous then industrial contaminants.

I see. Thanks!

 

[methylenewhite]

There is a protocol for acute tryptophane depletion. Its called ATD Moja-de. Designed to prevent undesirable effect on dopamine.

Per 10 kg of weight
L-phenylalanine 1.32 g
L-leucine 1.32 g
L-isoleucine 0.84 g
L-methionine 0.5 g
L-valine 0.96 g
L-threonine 0.6 g,
L-lysine 0.96 g

 

[Kunstruct]

I use pure BCAA powder and cheap blender. Mixes perfectly. Strange fact all pure bcaa users tend to claim about horrible taste but I find it taste so great lol.

I got some unflavored BCAA powder from MyProtein, and it does not mix with water at all. Also takes bad.

 

[Anders86]

There is a protocol for acute tryptophane depletion. Its called ATD Moja-de. Designed to prevent undesirable effect on dopamine.

Per 10 kg of weight
L-phenylalanine 1.32 g
L-leucine 1.32 g
L-isoleucine 0.84 g
L-methionine 0.5 g
L-valine 0.96 g
L-threonine 0.6 g,
L-lysine 0.96 g

I just took the above in OJ except methione. Mixed with 200mg caffeine and 5 drops Energin, and 250ml milk beside. Feel very on point