Depleting Serotonin With BCAA

[docall18]

According to many bodybuilding forums BCAA's cause excess ammonia in the body.
Symptoms of excess ammonia:
''On a more subtle level, the effect of ammonia on the brain include reduced cognition, lack of focus, diminished motivation, loss of sense of self, heightened emotionality and extreme mental fog.''


http://suppversity.blogspot.ie/2012/11/ ... ation.html

 

[haidut]

According to many bodybuilding forums BCAA's cause excess ammonia in the body.
Symptoms of excess ammonia:
''On a more subtle level, the effect of ammonia on the brain include reduced cognition, lack of focus, diminished motivation, loss of sense of self, heightened emotionality and extreme mental fog.''


http://suppversity.blogspot.ie/2012/11/ ... ation.html

That is true and I did point out that taking more than 5g of BCAA per dose would not be wise. From the link you posted:

"...Based on what we know about the mammalian body, the increased build-up of ammonia in the high BCAA group could be a result of the unfortunate combination of temporary energy shortage and learned wastefulness' in a situation, where the otherwise sparse BCAAs are available in abundance. Furthermore, with a glutamine content of only 9-13% in the casein fraction of their diets (Swails. 1992), the rodents in the high BCAA group did ingest more than 2.6-3.8 times more BCAAs than glutamine; a fact which may have contributed to a temporary glutamine deficiency as a result of its increased use in the detoxification of the ammonia that's generated when the BCAAs are oxidized. The resulting peripheral and possibly central ammonia build-up (see figure 2) could then have begun to intoxicate liver and brains of the rodents and thus hampered gluconeogensis (normal levels stimulate, high levels of ammonia hamper gluconeogensis; cf. Fritz. 1988) and induced central fatigue (Wagenmakers. 1990; Nybo. 2004) -- and that not despite, but rather due to the chronic "high dose" BCAA supplementation (HED ~50g/day)".

My recommendations are actually even more conservative since I saw several human studies showing that BCAA increased ammonia even at doses of 20g per dose. However, other studies showed that there was no increase of ammonia in humans when BCAA are taken even in repeated doses of <6g per dose. That matches well with the products of Ajinomoto that have 2400mg of BCAA combined with 1g of arginine and 1g of glutamine, and are marketed for endurance purposes and improvement of ammonia clearance.

 

[katiekeen]

Haidut, just wondering, do you use L phenylalanine, D Phenylalanine or DL phenylalanine?

 

[haidut]

Haidut, just wondering, do you use L phenylalanine, D Phenylalanine or DL phenylalanine?

I only use L-phenylalanine as I am not very comfortable with the D-amino acids. The research on them is very mixed, and some of them can kill bacteria (and human cells for that matter) better than radiation.
Also, lately I have been just adding BCAA to my protein meals and not using tyrosine and phenylalanine. I think it is safer.

 

[BingDing]

Hi haidut, wanted to double check. All the commercial BCAAs are 2 : 1 : 1 ratio. In your original post the study used 19 : 12 : 12 and tyrosine at 14 (mg/kl for all). Do you figure it doesn't make much difference?

 

[haidut]

Hi haidut, wanted to double check. All the commercial BCAAs are 21 ratio. In your original post the study used 19:12:12 and tyrosine at 14 (mg/kl for all). Do you figure it doesn't make much difference?

Any of the BCAA (leucine, valine, or isoleucine) would compete for transport through the BBB with the aromatic aminos (e.g. tryptophan) so even if you take only leucine and tyrosine that should still deplete tryptophan. In fact, you can find studies on PubMed from 1950s and 1960s doing just that.
So, any BCAA product should do. I think the different ratios you see in various products are used due to more recent research showing presumably bigger anabolic effect from higher ratio of leucine and not due to tryptophan depletion effects.
Makes sense?

 

[DdR]

Hey haidut,

I'm a first time poster.

This post of yours has intrigued me, and I have ordered and received the Ajinomoto BCAA product.

To recap the safest dosage: 5g of BCAAs together with a whole protein, e.g., cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, etc., 1-3x daily. This will downgrade serotonin while maintaining dopamine, which should result in a boost of mental and physical performance. Is this correct? Is there anything I should watch out for?

Thanks!

 

[haidut]

Hey haidut,

I'm a first time poster.

This post of yours has intrigued me, and I have ordered and received the Ajinomoto BCAA product.

To recap the safest dosage: 5g of BCAAs together with a whole protein, e.g., cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, etc., 1-3x daily. This will downgrade serotonin while maintaining dopamine, which should result in a boost of mental and physical performance. Is this correct? Is there anything I should watch out for?

Thanks!

This is good for a start. If you don't feel much effects from just using the BCAA and protein, you can try BCAA + tyrosine or phenylalanine for a more pronounced effect. But most people do well on protein + some extra BCAA (5g).

 

[DdR]

Thanks for all your help. I'll report back after trying this protocol for a few weeks.

 

[DdR]

Sorry, one last question: should I ingest 5g of BCAAs or 5g of the Ajinomoto powder? If the former, then that translates to 40g of the powder for 5g of BCAAs. This seems like an insane amount.

 

[haidut]

Sorry, one last question: should I ingest 5g of BCAAs or 5g of the Ajinomoto powder? If the former, then that translates to 40g of the powder for 5g of BCAAs. This seems like an insane amount.

It seems like the powder product you bought contains 3g of L-Glutamine, even though the product name only says BCAA. So, due to that "dilution" you are getting less BCAA per serving than you might expect. You'd need to take 3 scoops of the product for a total of 36g of product, but only 15g of protein with the rest being sweeteners and other additives. Note that 12g of product only has 5g total of protein. There are other Ajinomoto products out there that provide only BCAA and in less volume. Here is one (note that I am not endorsing it in any way):
http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nutriti ... caps/24134

 

[BingDing]

Any of the BCAA (leucine, valine, or isoleucine) would compete for transport through the BBB with the aromatic aminos (e.g. tryptophan) so even if you take only leucine and tyrosine that should still deplete tryptophan. In fact, you can find studies on PubMed from 1950s and 1960s doing just that.
So, any BCAA product should do. I think the different ratios you see in various products are used due to more recent research showing presumably bigger anabolic effect from higher ratio of leucine and not due to tryptophan depletion effects.
Makes sense?

Makes perfect sense, haidut. As Huxley said after reading Darwin, "How extremely stupid not to have thought of that."

 

[Such_Saturation]

According to many bodybuilding forums BCAA's cause excess ammonia in the body.
Symptoms of excess ammonia:
''On a more subtle level, the effect of ammonia on the brain include reduced cognition, lack of focus, diminished motivation, loss of sense of self, heightened emotionality and extreme mental fog.''


http://suppversity.blogspot.ie/2012/11/ ... ation.html

That is true and I did point out that taking more than 5g of BCAA per dose would not be wise. From the link you posted:

"...Based on what we know about the mammalian body, the increased build-up of ammonia in the high BCAA group could be a result of the unfortunate combination of temporary energy shortage and learned wastefulness' in a situation, where the otherwise sparse BCAAs are available in abundance. Furthermore, with a glutamine content of only 9-13% in the casein fraction of their diets (Swails. 1992), the rodents in the high BCAA group did ingest more than 2.6-3.8 times more BCAAs than glutamine; a fact which may have contributed to a temporary glutamine deficiency as a result of its increased use in the detoxification of the ammonia that's generated when the BCAAs are oxidized. The resulting peripheral and possibly central ammonia build-up (see figure 2) could then have begun to intoxicate liver and brains of the rodents and thus hampered gluconeogensis (normal levels stimulate, high levels of ammonia hamper gluconeogensis; cf. Fritz. 1988) and induced central fatigue (Wagenmakers. 1990; Nybo. 2004) -- and that not despite, but rather due to the chronic "high dose" BCAA supplementation (HED ~50g/day)".

My recommendations are actually even more conservative since I saw several human studies showing that BCAA increased ammonia even at doses of 20g per dose. However, other studies showed that there was no increase of ammonia in humans when BCAA are taken even in repeated doses of <6g per dose. That matches well with the products of Ajinomoto that have 2400mg of BCAA combined with 1g of arginine and 1g of glutamine, and are marketed for endurance purposes and improvement of ammonia clearance.

That's good because a quart of milk has exactly six grams of BCAA.

 

[DdR]

It seems like the powder product you bought contains 3g of L-Glutamine, even though the product name only says BCAA. So, due to that "dilution" you are getting less BCAA per serving than you might expect. You'd need to take 3 scoops of the product for a total of 36g of product, but only 15g of protein with th erest being sweeteners and other additives. Note that 12g of product only has 5g total of protein. Thee are other Ajinomoto products out there that only provide only BCAA and in less volume. Here is one (note that I am not endorsing it in any way):
http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nutriti ... caps/24134

D'oh! No way am I taking that amount. I'll just send it back and order the v-caps. Guess it'll be a few more weeks before I can report in.

And may I endorse all of Ajinomoto products? I use their glycine (3g per night sometimes), which provides me an incredibly restful sleep.

 

[haidut]

It seems like the powder product you bought contains 3g of L-Glutamine, even though the product name only says BCAA. So, due to that "dilution" you are getting less BCAA per serving than you might expect. You'd need to take 3 scoops of the product for a total of 36g of product, but only 15g of protein with th erest being sweeteners and other additives. Note that 12g of product only has 5g total of protein. Thee are other Ajinomoto products out there that only provide only BCAA and in less volume. Here is one (note that I am not endorsing it in any way):
http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nutriti ... caps/24134

D'oh! No way am I taking that amount. I'll just send it back and order the v-caps. Guess it'll be a few more weeks before I can report in.

And may I endorse all of Ajinomoto products? I use their glycine (3g per night sometimes), which provides me an incredibly restful sleep.

You can endorse any product you want
Just keep in mind that if the vendor changes their product for the worse (for whatever reason) it is very difficult to withdraw your past endorsements from the Internet. Google never forgets
Just my 2c.

 

[BingDing]

That's good because a quart of milk has exactly six grams of BCAA.

Good point! And if you add the tyrosine and phenylalanine there are 9g of AAs competing with .7g of tryptophan for crossing the BBB. Maybe that is why Ray says the tryptophan in milk is less problematic than in other foods.

 

[BingDing]

Thanks for the link to Swanson's, DdR. All I had found was this. At $45 it is almost three times as much as the Swanson's version. But they both have excipients I'd rather avoid.

 

[Such_Saturation]

That's good because a quart of milk has exactly six grams of BCAA.

Good point! And if you add the tyrosine and phenylalanine there are 9g of AAs competing with .7g of tryptophan for crossing the BBB. Maybe that is why Ray says the tryptophan in milk is less problematic than in other foods.

If you make it into farmer's cheese it will be even less tryptophan.

 

[loess]

if you are supplementing tyrosine keep in mind that studies show it gets converted to dopamine only if your retina (which is part of your CNS) is exposed to direct sunlight. Otherwise it could get converted to adrenaline, which is not what you want at all.

Would red light from incadescent bulbs be a reasonable substitute for sunlight with regard to tyrosine and taurine's increase in synthesis of dopamine and avoiding their conversion to adrenaline?

 

[haidut]

if you are supplementing tyrosine keep in mind that studies show it gets converted to dopamine only if your retina (which is part of your CNS) is exposed to direct sunlight. Otherwise it could get converted to adrenaline, which is not what you want at all.

Would red light from incadescent bulbs be a reasonable substitute for sunlight with regard to tyrosine and taurine's increase in synthesis of dopamine and avoiding their conversion to adrenaline?

I am not sure, but I think it was the UV light from sunlight that triggered the conversion into dopamine.