Depleting Serotonin With BCAA

[Blossom]

Anyone tried BCAA on its own or with insufficient tyro/phe, see what happens to dopamine and if it gets killed? I took a large amount of BCAA with a small cup of milk and got pretty strong effects. Very relaxed, yet no motivation to do anything whatsoever, persisting all day. Seems like it would promote sleep if it has the same effect at night...

Sorry jyb, to interrupt. I just noticed all the information about nicotine/smoking. Do you have any insight into this? I will happily try the BCAA tonight with milk to see if it helps with sleep. I had my first night of poor sleep in a long time last night.

 

[jyb]

Sorry jyb, to interrupt. I just noticed all the information about nicotine/smoking. Do you have any insight into this? I will happily try the BCAA tonight with milk to see if it helps with sleep. I had my first night of poor sleep in a long time last night.

No, just a random finding. For sleep I'm not sure what's the most calming between gelatin, bcaa, theanine, taurine, milk or casein...

 

[haidut]

Anyone tried BCAA on its own or with insufficient tyro/phe, see what happens to dopamine and if it gets killed? I took a large amount of BCAA with a small cup of milk and got pretty strong effects. Very relaxed, yet no motivation to do anything whatsoever, persisting all day. Seems like it would promote sleep if it has the same effect at night...

One of the studies I posted tested exactly that (in rodents) and found that BCAA on their own reduce dopamine by as much as they reduce serotonin. It is expected to do exactly that since BCAA compete with all aromatic aminos for entering the brain. I have also seen human studies showing the same effect - BCAA on their own deplete dopamine (measured in plasma) and that's one of the proposed reasons why BCAA have such a mixed reputation as an ergogenic aid. Most studies either don't find much of an improvement or if the dose is high enough (20g+) BCAA actually hurt performance both due to depleting dopamine too much and also increasing ammonia. Hence my proposed dose of taking no more than 5g of BCAA per dose. When combined with other protein, BCAA have a pronounced anabolic and ergogenic effects most likely due to the fact that the extra protein has phenylalanine and tyrosine and they synergize with BCAA to both reduce serotonin and increase dopamine in the brain.

 

[jyb]

high enough (20g+) BCAA actually hurt performance both due to depleting dopamine too much and also increasing ammonia.

It was pretty interesting experience. Now I know exactly what it means to have low dopamine. It's not the same as being tired or brain fogged.

 

[Blossom]

high enough (20g+) BCAA actually hurt performance both due to depleting dopamine too much and also increasing ammonia.

It was pretty interesting experience. Now I know exactly what it means to have low dopamine. It's not the same as being tired or brain fogged.

Yeah, I don't think I'll be trying that to help me sleep . Although when I take 5 grams with food it works great!

 

[4peatssake]

Found this BCAA powder, supposed to be pure.

Anyone familiar with this product?

Pure BCAA Powder?

 

[haidut]

Found this BCAA powder, supposed to be pure.

Anyone familiar with this product?

Pure BCAA Powder?

I have a friend who takes it. Other than the "funny" taste, which I have confirmed is how BCAA tastes like across many brands, the product seems fine and without adverse reactions so far.

 

[jyb]

I have a friend who takes it. Other than the "funny" taste, which I have confirmed is ho BCAA tastes like across many brands, the product seems fine and without adverse reactions so far.

I have some "pure" glycine powder and noticed some kind of taste or flavor. A bit reluctant to use it.

 

[overkees]

What are the risks in BCAA, tyrosine and phenylanaline supplementation? Do you need to have an intermittent rest period?

 

[haidut]

What are the risks in BCAA, tyrosine and phenylanaline supplementation? Do you need to have an intermittent rest period?

If you just add some BCAA and/or gelatin to your protein meals then I think it's pretty "natural" and can be done long term. Not so sure about taking isolated aminos for a long time, but as a "therapy" to bring setotonin under control it probably can be done for couple of months. There are studies on all isolated aminos showing good safety profile for up to 12 months of supplementation. Tyrosine is big at DARPA. They think it's the poor man's Provigil for keeping special ops soldiers awake and working under stress.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Speaking of the cyproheptadine, I thought that I can amplify the effects by doing cypro and BCAA combo together. So I took 2mg cypro and the BCAA+tyrosine combo together. Even more potent effect! My temperature rose to about 38 degrees Celsius, which is considered fever levels. I managed to get even more potent effects by doing cypro + (BCAA+tyrosine) + goat milk protein + gelatin. Both goat milk protein and gelatin have no tryptophan (actually goat milk protein has very very little) and contribute to the tryptophan depletion effect. I would not recommend the last option to anybody unless they have way too much serotonin that they want to get rid of. To me, this resulted in a heartbeat of over 100 BPM, temperature of 39 Celsius, and absolute inability to sleep. I felt like I had ingested some sort of supercharged gasoline and I kept turning and tossing all night while being madly thirsty no matter how much water I drink.

I wen to the gym, did some push presses for half an hour. Afterwards I took a PW drink with Sugar, Cocoa powder, Gelatin, 500mg Niacinamide, Baking soda, ~3g BCAA & ~1,5g tyrosine and 1g taurine. I have taken this mix as a PW before without adverse effects. However, last time I spent couple hours after the workout with a resting pulse of 150-160. Approximately, it's hard to get a good estimate when it's that high. I felt rather weak but not very bad. I'm sedentary and have terrible conditioning.

I did not get much sunlight after the drink, so it could be adrenaline. However, I did not feel tension I usually associate with adrenaline. I'd like to ask if I should be concerned about a heart failure and how I can test if the issue was simply too much dopamine.

Also are there any dangers associated with such high dopamine levels? I understand that cocaine, which has similar effects can cause heart attacks.

 

[haidut]

Speaking of the cyproheptadine, I thought that I can amplify the effects by doing cypro and BCAA combo together. So I took 2mg cypro and the BCAA+tyrosine combo together. Even more potent effect! My temperature rose to about 38 degrees Celsius, which is considered fever levels. I managed to get even more potent effects by doing cypro + (BCAA+tyrosine) + goat milk protein + gelatin. Both goat milk protein and gelatin have no tryptophan (actually goat milk protein has very very little) and contribute to the tryptophan depletion effect. I would not recommend the last option to anybody unless they have way too much serotonin that they want to get rid of. To me, this resulted in a heartbeat of over 100 BPM, temperature of 39 Celsius, and absolute inability to sleep. I felt like I had ingested some sort of supercharged gasoline and I kept turning and tossing all night while being madly thirsty no matter how much water I drink.

I wen to the gym, did some push presses for half an hour. Afterwards I took a PW drink with Sugar, Cocoa powder, Gelatin, 500mg Niacinamide, Baking soda, ~3g BCAA & ~1,5g tyrosine and 1g taurine. I have taken this mix as a PW before without adverse effects. However, last time I spent couple hours after the workout with a resting pulse of 150-160. Approximately, it's hard to get a good estimate when it's that high. I felt rather weak but not very bad. I'm sedentary and have terrible conditioning.

I did not get much sunlight after the drink, so it could be adrenaline. However, I did not feel tension I usually associate with adrenaline. I'd like to ask if I should be concerned about a heart failure and how I can test if the issue was simply too much dopamine.

Also are there any dangers associated with such high dopamine levels? I understand that cocaine, which has similar effects can cause heart attacks.

Speaking of the cyproheptadine, I thought that I can amplify the effects by doing cypro and BCAA combo together. So I took 2mg cypro and the BCAA+tyrosine combo together. Even more potent effect! My temperature rose to about 38 degrees Celsius, which is considered fever levels. I managed to get even more potent effects by doing cypro + (BCAA+tyrosine) + goat milk protein + gelatin. Both goat milk protein and gelatin have no tryptophan (actually goat milk protein has very very little) and contribute to the tryptophan depletion effect. I would not recommend the last option to anybody unless they have way too much serotonin that they want to get rid of. To me, this resulted in a heartbeat of over 100 BPM, temperature of 39 Celsius, and absolute inability to sleep. I felt like I had ingested some sort of supercharged gasoline and I kept turning and tossing all night while being madly thirsty no matter how much water I drink.

I wen to the gym, did some push presses for half an hour. Afterwards I took a PW drink with Sugar, Cocoa powder, Gelatin, 500mg Niacinamide, Baking soda, ~3g BCAA & ~1,5g tyrosine and 1g taurine. I have taken this mix as a PW before without adverse effects. However, last time I spent couple hours after the workout with a resting pulse of 150-160. Approximately, it's hard to get a good estimate when it's that high. I felt rather weak but not very bad. I'm sedentary and have terrible conditioning.

I did not get much sunlight after the drink, so it could be adrenaline. However, I did not feel tension I usually associate with adrenaline. I'd like to ask if I should be concerned about a heart failure and how I can test if the issue was simply too much dopamine.

Also are there any dangers associated with such high dopamine levels? I understand that cocaine, which has similar effects can cause heart attacks.

Cocaine used chronically raises serotonin levels and acts like estrogen - i.e. it is neuroexcitotoxic. The serotonergic effects of cocaine are what's behind its very detrimental effects on the heart. Anti-serotonin drugs are the "future" wave in the treatment of heart fibrosis and failure.
The effects you describe from ingesting the combo could be either from adrenalin or dopamine. It's hard to tell without doing some tests. Too much dopamine can bring about hypertensive crisis, just like adrenalin. However, based on this chart of tyrosine metabolism, before any adrenalin is produced the pathway goes through dopamine. In other words, dopamine is always raised but it can be further metabolized into adrenalin and noradrenalin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosine#Metabolism

So, maybe the issue is metabolic again. If metabolism is fine and blood sugar is up then tyrosine gets metabolized to dopamine AND the levels of dopamine stay higher for some time. If metabolism is not working well or there is hypoglycemia then the extra tyrosine will end up as more adrenalin and not stay as dopamine for long. Also, the baking soda you ingested also contributes to higher temperature and pulse. When I take more than 5g of baking soda in one sitting I get similar effects on pulse, except mine does not go as high as 150bpm.
The only reliable way to know what is happening is to do a blood work. Plasma levels of both dopamine and serotonin correlate well with brain levels.
Sorry for the ramble, just reasoning out loud here.

 

[sm1693]

What are the risks in BCAA, tyrosine and phenylanaline supplementation? Do you need to have an intermittent rest period?

If you just add some BCAA and/or gelatin to your protein meals then I think it's pretty "natural" and can be done long term. Not so sure about taking isolated aminos for a long time, but as a "therapy" to bring setotonin under control it probably can be done for couple of months. There are studies on all isolated aminos showing good safety profile for up to 12 months of supplementation. Tyrosine is big at DARPA. They think it's the poor man's Provigil for keeping special ops soldiers awake and working under stress.

I used to work in the special forces community and the amount of stress these guys are under is unbelievable. Nothing in the civilian world can come close. You meet many of these guys and you will swear that they are in their 40's; you would bet money on it. In reality, they are 28 and their bodies have simply aged at many times the normal rate due to constant long-term stress, poor nutrition, etc. If a substance is useful to them, it shouldn't necessarily convince anyone that it will be useful to a civilian.

Tyrosine may be useful if you are literally running out of it as a substrate, but other than that, it seems very poorly used by the body as an individual amino. Ingesting tyrosine causes near-immediate dopamine receptor downgrade and will bring down brain dopamine until a good night time homeostasis reset.

This is not a Peatology concept (and could be scientifically incorrect), however, my own personal experience has proven this with over a year of tyrosine use.

The first time I tried tyrosine it brought on the most exciting, manic feeling and lasted for 3 days (all the symptoms now point to this being "thyroid storm"[interestingly enough, iodine use brought the same symptoms months later]). After the 3 days, I was exhausted but convinced I had found the "answer". Tyrosine never worked that way for me again and would literally cause depression unless I took a 2-3 week break from it. And then it would only work well for 1 dose and 3-4 hours.

I have tried the BCAAs with and without tyrosine (and/or phenylalanine). With tyrosine (or phe) it hasn't been a good experience because of what I have written above. With a protein meal, BCAAs by themselves (I was taking 2 tsp) seem to work well for a day or 2, but the constant lowering of dopamine seems to catch up with you and eventually receptor upgrade can't keep up with the loss. Your super relaxed feeling imperceptibly turns to apathy and depression.

[Hypothesis: perhaps a lower BCAA dose is the only acceptable answer to this protocol. Taking something like 1 tsp BCAA with meals may only slightly lower dopamine/serotonin, but perhaps receptor upgrade can compensate on the dopamine side. The long term effects from slightly lowered serotonin may be worth it.]

I was very disappointed that this protocol wouldn't seem to work for me long term because it had so much promise. If anyone has a tweak to the dosages/timing/consistency that seems to make this work long-term, I would love to hear about it.

 

[nwo2012]

Any thoughts I had of trying out manipulation of serotonin by amino acids came to an abrupt halt:

What do you think of BCAA? Some research claims it can lower serotonin levels and some on one of the RP forums are saying the same thing. Wondered if you had a specific viewpoint on them.

RP says

I think manufactured amino acids should generally be avoided, because of common contamination.

 

[haidut]

What are the risks in BCAA, tyrosine and phenylanaline supplementation? Do you need to have an intermittent rest period?

If you just add some BCAA and/or gelatin to your protein meals then I think it's pretty "natural" and can be done long term. Not so sure about taking isolated aminos for a long time, but as a "therapy" to bring setotonin under control it probably can be done for couple of months. There are studies on all isolated aminos showing good safety profile for up to 12 months of supplementation. Tyrosine is big at DARPA. They think it's the poor man's Provigil for keeping special ops soldiers awake and working under stress.

I used to work in the special forces community and the amount of stress these guys are under is unbelievable. Nothing in the civilian world can come close. You meet many of these guys and you will swear that they are in their 40's; you would bet money on it. In reality, they are 28 and their bodies have simply aged at many times the normal rate due to constant long-term stress, poor nutrition, etc. If a substance is useful to them, it shouldn't necessarily convince anyone that it will be useful to a civilian.

Tyrosine may be useful if you are literally running out of it as a substrate, but other than that, it seems very poorly used by the body as an individual amino. Ingesting tyrosine causes near-immediate dopamine receptor downgrade and will bring down brain dopamine until a good night time homeostasis reset.

This is not a Peatology concept (and could be scientifically incorrect), however, my own personal experience has proven this with over a year of tyrosine use.

The first time I tried tyrosine it brought on the most exciting, manic feeling and lasted for 3 days (all the symptoms now point to this being "thyroid storm"[interestingly enough, iodine use brought the same symptoms months later]). After the 3 days, I was exhausted but convinced I had found the "answer". Tyrosine never worked that way for me again and would literally cause depression unless I took a 2-3 week break from it. And then it would only work well for 1 dose and 3-4 hours.

I have tried the BCAAs with and without tyrosine (and/or phenylalanine). With tyrosine (or phe) it hasn't been a good experience because of what I have written above. With a protein meal, BCAAs by themselves (I was taking 2 tsp) seem to work well for a day or 2, but the constant lowering of dopamine seems to catch up with you and eventually receptor upgrade can't keep up with the loss. Your super relaxed feeling imperceptibly turns to apathy and depression.

[Hypothesis: perhaps a lower BCAA dose is the only acceptable answer to this protocol. Taking something like 1 tsp BCAA with meals may only slightly lower dopamine/serotonin, but perhaps receptor upgrade can compensate on the dopamine side. The long term effects from slightly lowered serotonin may be worth it.]

I was very disappointed that this protocol wouldn't seem to work for me long term because it had so much promise. If anyone has a tweak to the dosages/timing/consistency that seems to make this work long-term, I would love to hear about it.

There are a number of studies with Tyrosine on PubMed, using a dose of 12g as a bolus. The studies say their motivation is to find a compound that can be used by the military community specifically for handling stress. I know DARPA has given a grant for tyrosine research to prevent sleepiness after 24-48 hours of sleep deprivation. Maybe they have given up on it since the studies are several years old...
Btw, I never take more than 5g of BCAA per dose, and that is about one teaspoon as you suggested. More than that would deplete BOTH serotonin and dopamine and acts like a drug Peat has written about - reserpine. It is an ancient tranquilizer and it does the same depletion of both neurotransmitters. There are several studies on BCAA depleting both neurotransmitters, and nobody is questioning it. Hence, the supplementation with Phe / Tyr so that the ratio of Tryptophan/LNAA falls but the ratio of Phe/LNAA and Tyr/LNAA stay the same or rise. I seem to remember that tyrosine in higher doses inhibits the enzyme synthesizing dopamine, so if your tyrosine is already high then maybe even a little extra shuts down the dopamine production. They key of the protocol is NOT so much to raise dopamine with the extra tyrosine, but to deplete tryptophan (and hence serotonin) and add some tyrosine so that BCAA does NOT deplete dopamine as well. That's why the post title is about "depleting serotonin". The study I posted with rats said that tyrosine is added to simply prevents depletion of dopamine, and the dose was 100mg/kg for rats (about 1.2g-1.5g for a human). It's the lowered serotonin that is responsible for increased libido, better concentration, more energy. The drug pCPA does the same - lowers serotonin, but does not raise dopamine.
Since serotonin and dopamine are sort of functional antagonists of each other, it's their ratio that matters, and not so much their absolute levels. So, maybe I should have said that the goal is to raise the dopamine/serotonin ratio, and not so much to raise dopamine.
How much BCAA were you taking? When I take 5g of BCAA and 1.5g-2g of Phenylalanine I invariably get the motivated feeling and high libido. I am pretty sure it is not a placebo effect as there are physical "symptoms" that never fail to show up when taking the combo and they can't really be faked.
Tyrosine is more of mixed results. When taken during the day I do get a very motivated feeling and energy rush. At night it just relaxes me and makes me capable of reading for hours and hours. So, you may have to lay with a lower dose of tyrosine.
Just my 2c.

 

[sm1693]

Ah, unfortunately I have been going off the dosage on the package for the bulksupplements brand that says 1.8g per tsp. I just measured the ajinomoto brand that I just got in the mail and the scale says around 4g per tsp, so I was clearly taking a higher dose in previous experiments.

I will try again this week with the lower dose.

By the way, I have been having massive success with the ray peat style diet overall for the last 2 months so I have to offer thanks to the main contributors of this forum! Without you guys, I never would have been persuaded to try such "crazy" ideas! Thank you

 

[Combie]

Has anyone tried 200-400mg on an empty stomach on rising, then whichever protein, BCAA etc 30-30 mins later? I use tyrosine regularly like this for its dopamine effect. Those doses are huge what ure taking. I took 600mg other day and went out into the sun to do some digging and had a huge headache all day. I didn't realise tyr/dopamine was light activated, now I know why I got the headache, and why sometimes it works as sometimes it doesn't.

People I have given tyrosine in the past have likened it's effect to amphetamine, which makes some sense.

 

[haidut]

Has anyone tried 200-400mg on an empty stomach on rising, then whichever protein, BCAA etc 30-30 mins later? I use tyrosine regularly like this for its dopamine effect. Those doses are huge what ure taking. I took 600mg other day and went out into the sun to do some digging and had a huge headache all day. I didn't realise tyr/dopamine was light activated, now I know why I got the headache, and why sometimes it works as sometimes it doesn't.

People I have given tyrosine in the past have likened it's effect to amphetamine, which makes some sense.

The study I am basing this dosage on did do the BCAA + Tyr combo on empty stomach. The BCAA dose is coming directly from the study where they said BCAA should be 4g-5g per dose. Tyrosine dosage comes from a rat study, which used the same BCAA dosage (in rat equivalent conversion) and about 100mg/kg of tyrosine for rat, which translates to about 1.5g for a human. Obviously there can be huge variability in reaction to tyrosine at various doses so these are just guidelines. If 600mg tyrosine gave you headache then you need lower dose. I am not pushing any dose in particular, simply reporting what the study found was effective for depleting serotonin while keeping dopamine stable and even slightly elevated.

 

[Combie]

Sure, just pointing out that people might want to start on the lower end of the dosage scale.y experience over many years is that messing about with amino acids can seriously affect ones mental health if not done properly. Dopamine and serotonin levels aren't something you want to get wrong!

 

[docall18]

Tried BCAA by themselves for a few days. Felt the same kinda apathetic/depressed mood as mentioned in a previous post. I was doing appros 7.5g/dose. Felt like i was getting low cortisol symptoms..

Didnt take Tyrosine with it as it causes day-long high anxiety, headaches etc, probably from increased nor-epinephrine.