Depleting Serotonin With BCAA

[juanitacarlos]

So, the attached study recently came out and it confirmed that one can reduce serotonin BUT keep dopamine intact (maybe even increase it a little) by ingesting a BCAA combo in the dosage 19mg/kg:12mg/kg:12mg/kg (leucine:isoleucine:valine) AND adding tyrosine at the dosage of 14mg/kg. To me this amounts to about taking 3500mg of BCAA and 1500mg tyrosine.

Finally, to make the super cocktail even more potent one can add taurine, which has a number of good effects on the liver, mitochondria and brain (through GABA modulation). Ray Peat talks about it in some of his articles.

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/07 ... one-w.html

The human dosage is about 15g per day for the above effect to occur. So taking 5g with the BCAA+tyrosine combo seems like a very good way to give your health a super boost.

haidut, did you take the BCAA/tyrosine combo once per day? Or more?

And did you try adding 5g of taurine to the combo and did you notice any effect?

 

[haidut]

So, the attached study recently came out and it confirmed that one can reduce serotonin BUT keep dopamine intact (maybe even increase it a little) by ingesting a BCAA combo in the dosage 19mg/kg:12mg/kg:12mg/kg (leucine:isoleucine:valine) AND adding tyrosine at the dosage of 14mg/kg. To me this amounts to about taking 3500mg of BCAA and 1500mg tyrosine.

Finally, to make the super cocktail even more potent one can add taurine, which has a number of good effects on the liver, mitochondria and brain (through GABA modulation). Ray Peat talks about it in some of his articles.

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/07 ... one-w.html

The human dosage is about 15g per day for the above effect to occur. So taking 5g with the BCAA+tyrosine combo seems like a very good way to give your health a super boost.

haidut, did you take the BCAA/tyrosine combo once per day? Or more?

And did you try adding 5g of taurine to the combo and did you notice any effect?

I took the combo 3 times a day, together with 5g of taurine each time. So total taurine intake was 15g and I did this for a month. After about a month taurine benefits reached a plateau for me and I dropped it. I still take it occasionally, but no more than 3g at a time.
Also, if you supplement with tyrosine, there are studies that it only converts to dopamine if you are exposed to daylight.

 

[Dayman]

Hi I Did a dose of BCAA/l-tyrosine and got a headache. I just realized I probably did too much at once. Also what benefits have you notice after doing this for a prolonged period?

 

[haidut]

Hi I Did a dose of BCAA/l-tyrosine and got a headache. I just realized I probably did too much at once. Also what benefits have you notice after doing this for a prolonged period?

I got a headache as well, and for me it looks like it was from the tyrosine. When I replaced it with Phenylalanine I did not get a headache. It could be just a contaminated tyrosine supplement. However, if you are supplementing tyrosine keep in mind that studies show it gets converted to dopamin only if your retina (which is part of your CNS) is exposed to direct sunlight. Otherwise it could get converted to adrenaline, which is not what you want at all.
The benefits from BCAA/tyrosine were strong increase in motivation, concentration, and endurance for exercise. With Phe instead of tyrosine I also got a big boost in libido lasting 2-3 hours. Then I realized I can just take BCAA and get the Phe/Tyr from food since many foods have high contents of those aminos. So, eating a good deal of cheese (casein) and supplementing 5g-7g of BCAA should have a strong effect on muscle power, endurance, and libido.

 

[himsahimsa]

I've been using these guys for proteins since Feb 2010 and have liked the quality and price. Good air-tight packs. Good selection of proteins and specialties like BCAAs. Most of their products are straight protein, no flavoring, sweetener, fill, whatever, unless you ask for it. They deliberately use Sunflower lecithin in non-soy products to preclude soy estrogenic effects. They custom mix.

And, they have potato protein. How weird is that?
I just ordered some. I'll post a note when it's delivered about the flavor, etc'.

(I have no connection to them other than as a customer)

http://proteinfactory.com/shop/home.php

 

[max219]

Himsashimsa, do they have BCAAs? I searched it on the search bar and I found one that had BCAA added, but not a full BCAA one.

 

[himsahimsa]

Right. I don't see straight BCAAs either.

 

[jyb]

However, if you are supplementing tyrosine keep in mind that studies show it gets converted to dopamin only if your retina (which is part of your CNS) is exposed to direct sunlight. Otherwise it could get converted to adrenaline, which is not what you want at all.

Can conversion of tyrosine to adrenaline in the dark also occur when tyrosine is from food, not isolated protein powder? If so, it would support RP's suggestion to eat protein earlier in the day, and more fat and sugar at night. But I guess there are many other reasons to do this anyway, such as avoiding conversion of tryptophan to serotonin (this is metabolism dependent, so this would occur more at night when metabolism slows) and loading up the muscles and liver for a night's sleep.

 

[haidut]

However, if you are supplementing tyrosine keep in mind that studies show it gets converted to dopamin only if your retina (which is part of your CNS) is exposed to direct sunlight. Otherwise it could get converted to adrenaline, which is not what you want at all.

Can conversion of tyrosine to adrenaline in the dark also occur when tyrosine is from food, not isolated protein powder? If so, it would support RP's suggestion to eat protein earlier in the day, and more fat and sugar at night. But I guess there are many other reasons to do this anyway, such as avoiding conversion of tryptophan to serotonin (this is metabolism dependent, so this would occur more at night when metabolism slows) and loading up the muscles and liver for a night's sleep.

It is possible, but I read that whole protein is processed differently than isolated amino acids. Whole protein triggers protein (muscle) synthesis and the body used all the amino acids, so there is not much left to go to the brain. Studies with mice show that ingesting whole protein in doses less than 50g does not change much neither serotonin nor dopamine in the brain, which suggests it is all shuttled to the cells for protein synthesis. Individual amino acids initially trigger the protein synthesis mechanism but when the body realizes it does not have all of the needed aminos to build muscle, the response subsides and free amino acids in plasma are detectable for hours after intake, allowing them to go to the brain and affect serotonin/dopamine.
So, for liver support and protein synthesis I'd say whole protein is best. For manipulating brain neurotransmitters either individual amino acids or proteins deficient in some aminos are more suitable. So, BCAA, Tyr, Phe, zein, gelatin, and their combinations are more effective for brain manipulation.

 

[jyb]

Studies with mice show that ingesting whole protein in doses less than 50g does not change much neither serotonin nor dopamine in the brain, which suggests it is all shuttled to the cells for protein synthesis.

Wait, 50g is a lot, so tryptophan in muscle meat / milk would have no effect on brain serotonin?

 

[Kasper]

I thought BCAA was also used for creating extra muscle mass.

 

[haidut]

Studies with mice show that ingesting whole protein in doses less than 50g does not change much neither serotonin nor dopamine in the brain, which suggests it is all shuttled to the cells for protein synthesis.

Wait, 50g is a lot, so tryptophan in muscle meat / milk would have no effect on brain serotonin?

Yes, probably not much effect on brain serotonin. At least that's what the studies say. But about 90% of serotonin is synthesized in the gut, hence its original name enteramine. So, tryptophan will certainly affect that. Also, tryptophan is bad for the rest of the cell in your body as well. It is excitotoxic and glycine/gelatin have the opposite effect. It is also antithyroid, and the only amino acid that is carcinogenic. So, as you can see there are valid reasons to limit tryptophan intake. I would not focus too much on limiting brain serotonin, the issue is "systemic" as Ray said in one of his last articles.

 

[jyb]

Yes, probably not much effect on brain serotonin. At least that's what the studies say. But about 90% of serotonin is synthesized in the gut, hence its original name enteramine. So, tryptophan will certainly affect that. Also, tryptophan is bad for the rest of the cell in your body as well. It is excitotoxic and glycine/gelatin have the opposite effect. It is also antithyroid, and the only amino acid that is carcinogenic. So, as you can see there are valid reasons to limit tryptophan intake. I would not focus too much on limiting brain serotonin, the issue is "systemic" as Ray said in one of his last articles.

I thought that glycine/gelatin was useful due to limiting tryptophan access to the brain, therefore limiting brain serotonin. I didn't know it was more general as you say...

 

[haidut]

Yes, probably not much effect on brain serotonin. At least that's what the studies say. But about 90% of serotonin is synthesized in the gut, hence its original name enteramine. So, tryptophan will certainly affect that. Also, tryptophan is bad for the rest of the cell in your body as well. It is excitotoxic and glycine/gelatin have the opposite effect. It is also antithyroid, and the only amino acid that is carcinogenic. So, as you can see there are valid reasons to limit tryptophan intake. I would not focus too much on limiting brain serotonin, the issue is "systemic" as Ray said in one of his last articles.

I thought that glycine/gelatin was useful due to limiting tryptophan access to the brain, therefore limiting brain serotonin. I didn't know it was more general as you say...

Only the LNAA (large neutral amino acids) compete for transport to the brain. Those include the BCAA, Tyr, Phe, Tryptophan and maybe as some people claim also methionine and glutamine. To the best of my knowledge tryptophan does not compete with glycine for transport. Gleatin has some of the LNAA like Phenyalanine and Tyrosine but probably not in quantities high enough to limit brain transport. BCAA also have other indirect tryptophan antagonism such as limiting tryptophan uptake in gut and, for the tryptophan that does get absorbed steering its metabolism towards niacin and not serotonin.

 

[sm1693]

What are the links to any studies on tyrosine's conversion to dopamine in the presence of sunlight? I can't seem to find any using google search.

I have been using a 600W grow lamp placed in my peripheral vision (I'm sure this isn't the best setup, but it's what I had laying around) in my room the last few days, and I have been feeling phenomenal.

It seems there is now a flourishing market for these "SAD" lamps, but perhaps the science behind their effectiveness is misunderstood. Many people appear to attribute the good effects to a boost in brain serotonin, but, obviously, Peat practitioners will disagree with this opinion.

 

[haidut]

What are the links to any studies on tyrosine's conversion to dopamine in the presence of sunlight? I can't seem to find any using google search.

I have been using a 600W grow lamp placed in my peripheral vision (I'm sure this isn't the best setup, but it's what I had laying around) in my room the last few days, and I have been feeling phenomenal.

It seems there is now a flourishing market for these "SAD" lamps, but perhaps the science behind their effectiveness is misunderstood. Many people appear to attribute the good effects to a boost in brain serotonin, but, obviously, Peat practitioners will disagree with this opinion.

Here is one study that talks about tyrosine raising dopamine only when retina is exposed to sunlight:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513421

Look at pages 1 and 2, but I would suggest reading the whole study.

 

[jyb]

Here is one study that talks about tyrosine raising dopamine only when retina is exposed to sunlight:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513421

Look at pages 1 and 2, but I would suggest reading the whole study.

I usually read that tobacco smoking is good for dopamine, so I was a bit surprised to read this

Physiologically relevant levels of nicotine inhibit DA release triggered by cholinergic interneurons (ChIs) in the dorsal striatum

 

[haidut]

Here is one study that talks about tyrosine raising dopamine only when retina is exposed to sunlight:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513421

Look at pages 1 and 2, but I would suggest reading the whole study.

I usually read that tobacco smoking is good for dopamine, so I was a bit surprised to read this

Physiologically relevant levels of nicotine inhibit DA release triggered by cholinergic interneurons (ChIs) in the dorsal striatum

There is a lot more in smoke from tobacco than just nicotine. For instance, for a long time people thought that nicotine is responsible for the higher testosterone in smokers, but it turned out to be a mix of things like cotinine, anabasine, etc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3711333
I don't think anybody knows the full metabolic profile of smoke and what exactly raises dopamine, but it has been confirmed multiple times that smokers have higher dopamine levels.

 

[jyb]

Anyone tried BCAA on its own or with insufficient tyro/phe, see what happens to dopamine and if it gets killed? I took a large amount of BCAA with a small cup of milk and got pretty strong effects. Very relaxed, yet no motivation to do anything whatsoever, persisting all day. Seems like it would promote sleep if it has the same effect at night...

 

[Blossom]

Here is one study that talks about tyrosine raising dopamine only when retina is exposed to sunlight:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513421

Look at pages 1 and 2, but I would suggest reading the whole study.

I usually read that tobacco smoking is good for dopamine, so I was a bit surprised to read this

Physiologically relevant levels of nicotine inhibit DA release triggered by cholinergic interneurons (ChIs) in the dorsal striatum

There is a lot more in smoke from tobacco than just nicotine. For instance, for a long time people thought that nicotine is responsible for the higher testosterone in smokers, but it turned out to be a mix of things like cotinine, anabasine, etc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3711333
I don't think anybody knows the full metabolic profile of smoke and what exactly raises dopamine, but it has been confirmed multiple times that smokers have higher dopamine levels.

That's interesting. Cotinine is the test they give for my work physical to determine if a person is using nicotine. Once after I quit smoking I tested positive for cotinine while using the nicotine patch. So do we think the cholinergic properties of smoking are not negative like other cholinergic drugs?