Denise Minger Says "Hello Ray Peat"

benaoao

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This is probably a repost, but seriously, this is an incredible article. More like, the longest most incredible review of Peat-friendly ideas run by doctors for decades in North America.

In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1)

The Pritikin database is out there... Seriously, if you hop on a train or a plane or whatever, leave this article open.

So what's the reason, in 2018, for having more than, huh, 20g of saturated fats, maybe the same amount of MUFAs, and trace PUFAs?
 

Hazarlar

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This should be one of the most recommended articles in the field of nutrition.

Another good one is "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease".

I read Minger's one, just a week ago by accidentally googling "carbosis".

This article opened so many new lines of thoughts - especially ouroboric (as above, so below) nature of nutrition. That is - in both extremes (head and tail) - very low carb and very low fat ... are doing some "magic" in the organism!
 

Wagner83

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When I read it I was quite baffled by how pufas didn't lead to issues in roy swank's patients, quite the opposite.
After a few meals of high starch very low fat I had bad endotoxins symptoms develop, which were relieved thanks to pineapples and ground mushrooms (and less high starch very low fat meals). 3 high starch (potatoes, white rice) vlf meals are hard on stable energy levels and satiety too. Beans and lentils may be a different story but come with their own issues. @Koveras had posted the article in the past.
 
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Luk3

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I've never attempted a low fat diet before; I think it's about time I do. What is the reasoning for keeping protein low on these fruitarian-type diets? Low protein is not something that appeals.
 

Hazarlar

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What is the reasoning for keeping protein low on these fruitarian-type diets? Low protein is not something that appeals.

I would like to know that too ... besides ideological-vegetarian reasons. I would add more lean chicken, or fish, or low fat cottage-cheese.

Also these diets are very low in salt for some reason.

In very low protein, autophagy also kicks-in, and it might contribute to the healing.

In rice-diet they also talk about healing the kidney's, by not giving them protein to work with. And I am not sure it makes sense.

Ray Peat has himself said that fruits has things (keto-acids?) that can spare protein. That is why some vegan youtubers have reported gains in fruitarian diets. And fructose is also good for cholesterol and testosterone formation.
 

DDK

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In rice-diet they also talk about healing the kidney's, by not giving them protein to work with. And I am not sure it makes sense.

In the "Milk Cure" they talk about protein healing the kidneys. The people who commenced on the milk diet (usually it was low fat milk) would consume a minimum of 200 grams of protein per day and all of the researchers were baffled how it healed all sorts of kidney diseases, since protein in theory should be straining the kidneys. I guess it depends on the type of protein.
 

DDK

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I've never attempted a low fat diet before; I think it's about time I do. What is the reasoning for keeping protein low on these fruitarian-type diets? Low protein is not something that appeals.

I'm sure you could benefit by eating a low fat diet of fruits, vegetables, potatoes, white rice/white flour, but continue eating protein from lean meat/fish, low fat milk or cheese.
 

benaoao

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The low protein seems to have been prescribed only at the beginning of those diets
 

Luk3

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I'm sure you could benefit by eating a low fat diet of fruits, vegetables, potatoes, white rice/white flour, but continue eating protein from lean meat/fish, low fat milk or cheese.

Yes, I’ll try this, thanks. I’ve eaten moderate-high fat for the majority of my life, and my health is pretty poor for someone my age, so I don’t see the harm in trying low fat for once.
 

DDK

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Yes, I’ll try this, thanks. I’ve eaten moderate-high fat for the majority of my life, and my health is pretty poor for someone my age, so I don’t see the harm in trying low fat for once.

To prevent having liver/gallbladder problems from low fat, make sure you consume at least some fat as well as dietary acids (fruit) and protein that stimulates bile flow (glycine & taurine).
 

yerrag

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When I read it I was quite baffled by how pufas didn't lead to issues in roy swank's patients, quite the opposite.
Although Minger touches on her own confounding factor Neu5Gc, salic acid, which is high in meat, doesn't meat/dairy have vitamin A, and isn't vitamin A excess being discussed as a possible cause of disease in this thread: Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

I'm equally as baffled that PUFAs had no seemingly adverse effects on his subjects. I took liposomal C, which has soy PUFAs in them, and that night I experienced my first ever sleepless night, where I was trying to sleep.

Did they not develop diabetes, or at the very least they had blood sugar control problems. And how was their metabolism? Won't they have developed chronic disease over those years?

The only thing I could think of that would invalidate his conclusions are that maybe the study subjects did not really adhere to the lifestyle prescribed over so many years, as much as fifty years. But it's still interesting that the longest-lived subjects, after 50 years, were able to still walk, and had smooth skin indicating good circulation.

I would expect them to be on a cocktail of prescription drugs by then.
 
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benaoao

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It seems that it is the absolute amount of fat that matters actually. That’s the only explanation I could think of. If those patients had 10g of saturated, I’m guessing not much more monos, and 10-40g PUFAs that’s barely 300-500 KCal from fat in the diet.

Speculating - if the patients basically kept their daily PUFA load for a salad dressing or a dinner eating out, they spend the whole day on a 0 fat diet pretty much. I’m sure that’s significant
 

Elephanto

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I really liked my experiment with almost 0 fat for around a month or so and plan to stick to very low fat. Basically I moved into an appartment and only ate homemade meals consisting of white rice, veggies and properly soaked legumes. For some reason, I just never used oil without thinking about it, just wasn't instinctively compelled to do so. No dairy, meat, coffee or sugar either, and intermittent fasting (16-18h fasting window). That's when my testosterone kickstarted noticeably (so much for dietary fat being required for androgens but I guess I still had fat in storage) and began having much more masculine features. Not from a weight lost, I was always skinny and a high sugar/milk diet actually makes me lose weight to a point where I look unhealthy (probably mostly from the opioid and liver-fattening effects) according to some family members. Energy levels, sense of wellbeing and overall looks were the best I've had too, even not taking any supps. In long term I would re-introduce fat, like 2 teaspoons of coconut oil and 1 teaspoon of olive oil a day. It's just pretty much impossible when you often eat with other people or at restaurants, but if fat intake is very low on most days it seems to mitigate most of the metabolic/testosterone damage. I find that true for about everything, it is the habits that determines health and lifecourse, not the exceptions. When the habits are truly shifting balance toward the positive end, the exceptions hardly make a difference.
 

Wagner83

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I really liked my experiment with almost 0 fat for around a month or so and plan to stick to very low fat. Basically I moved into an appartment and only ate homemade meals consisting of white rice, veggies and properly soaked legumes. For some reason, I just never used oil without thinking about it, just wasn't instinctively compelled to do so. No dairy, meat, coffee or sugar either, and intermittent fasting (16-18h fasting window). That's when my testosterone kickstarted noticeably (so much for dietary fat being required for androgens but I guess I still had fat in storage) and began having much more masculine features. Not from a weight lost, I was always skinny and a high sugar/milk diet actually makes me lose weight to a point where I look unhealthy (probably mostly from the opioid and liver-fattening effects) according to some family members. Energy levels, sense of wellbeing and overall looks were the best I've had too, even not taking any supps. In long term I would re-introduce fat, like 2 teaspoons of coconut oil and 1 teaspoon of olive oil a day. It's just pretty much impossible when you often eat with other people or at restaurants, but if fat intake is very low on most days it seems to mitigate most of the metabolic/testosterone damage. I find that true for about everything, it is the habits that determines health and lifecourse, not the exceptions. When the habits are truly shifting balance toward the positive end, the exceptions hardly make a difference.
It sounds like you were avoiding animal foods which can also come with their own problems regarding digestion and putrefaction (and bad amino-acids balance). It could be interesting to add some gelatinous cuts of meat, at least the broth.When one ditches dairy it is much easier to control fat intake. The taste buds adjust to a lower fat intake too, maybe like they do for salt. Fried foods often become high-fat foods so ditching those as well helps. For the record Zachs had done an experiment with vlf high-starch, I also know someone who follows McDougall and like Zachs said, those people seem to become extremely lean with very little muscles, not that it's necessarily an issue but it is something to keep in mind.
.
 

Elephanto

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It sounds like you were avoiding animal foods which can also come with their own problems regarding digestion and putrefaction (and bad amino-acids balance). It could be interesting to add some gelatinous cuts of meat, at least the broth.When one ditches dairy it is much easier to control fat intake. The taste buds adjust to a lower fat intake too, maybe like they do for salt. Fried foods often become high-fat foods so ditching those as well helps. For the record Zachs had done an experiment with vlf high-starch, I also know someone who follows McDougall and like Zachs said, those people seem to become extremely lean with very little muscles, not that it's necessarily an issue but it is something to keep in mind.
.

Yeah I'm sure it was a combination of factors. I do feel really good when I don't eat meat for extended periods. Plus like you said the very low tryptophan and cysteine intake. As far as testosterone goes, IF seemed to be an important factor. It does make sense evolutionnary, when a man woke up without food requiring him to go hunting, having increased testosterone would have helped him achieve this goal. And then studies show that a meal suppresses testosterone temporarily so the longer I wait before my first meal, the longer I have increased testosterone production (that is if you have the adequate glycogen storage to not trigger cortisol). As far as muscles, I don't think that eating white rice alone will provide the protein requirements for decent muscle synthesis but that the legumes help in my experience (I get about 30g of protein daily if I account for lower bioavailabity in legumes). Complete absence of omega-6s too.
 
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I'm not sure about that 'debunking' from the IDM link. I think an ultra-low/no fat diet can work for weight loss. It just might not be sustainable long term, but perhaps the beneficial effects would have been achieved after enough fat has been lost and then one could switch to a 'normal' diet. I tried it for 4 days and lost 3 pounds, although I was eating around 2900 calories a day, and didn't exercise at all. Another forum member, Zachs, lost around 35 pounds in 5 months, eating around 3000 calories a day.
He gave an overview of his experience here:
Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism
And speculates on the mechanism of fat loss a no fat diet induces here:
Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

I'm not saying it's a panacea for all dietary ailments and not without its drawbacks (e.g., I have seen different things discussed about hormone/skin health) but I can see how it worked for those patients Minger discusses in the blog post.
 

yerrag

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This is probably a repost, but seriously, this is an incredible article. More like, the longest most incredible review of Peat-friendly ideas run by doctors for decades in North America.

In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1)

The Pritikin database is out there... Seriously, if you hop on a train or a plane or whatever, leave this article open.

So what's the reason, in 2018, for having more than, huh, 20g of saturated fats, maybe the same amount of MUFAs, and trace PUFAs?

No reason at all. This was a long, long read but worth it. Can't wait for Part 2 to come out. Ray Peat has been right all along with low fat. I didn't take him that seriously that, as I would still drink whole milk, and I like the taste of fat in beef striploin, but I'll also eat pork fat from pork belly, but Asian pork belly has much less fat than American pork belly.

Now, I'm going to make more effort to minimize on the all animal fat much more, although it would be difficult to avoid fats from organ meats, and it would be hard to avoid pork fat sticking to pork skin.

I think though that a large part of why saturated animal fats are not healthful is due to adipose tissues being where toxins such as heavy metals are stored. This would mean that coconut oil is free from this taint. Coconut oil comes from the fruit or the nut of the tree, and most toxins would have been filtered by the trunk. So I would continue to take coconut oil. But along this line of reasoning, milk and butter should also be spared of toxins, as the toxins from the food cows eat would also have been filtered and stored in their adipose tissues.
 

benaoao

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I'm not sure about that 'debunking' from the IDM link. I think an ultra-low/no fat diet can work for weight loss. It just might not be sustainable long term, but perhaps the beneficial effects would have been achieved after enough fat has been lost and then one could switch to a 'normal' diet. I tried it for 4 days and lost 3 pounds, although I was eating around 2900 calories a day, and didn't exercise at all. Another forum member, Zachs, lost around 35 pounds in 5 months, eating around 3000 calories a day.
He gave an overview of his experience here:
Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism
And speculates on the mechanism of fat loss a no fat diet induces here:
Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

I'm not saying it's a panacea for all dietary ailments and not without its drawbacks (e.g., I have seen different things discussed about hormone/skin health) but I can see how it worked for those patients Minger discusses in the blog post.

I was being sarcastic ;) this Dr isn’t debunking anything. He tries, and gets roasted in his own comment section.

A comment points to another blog who goes into rather refreshing biochemistry & cellular signaling and Dr Fung brushes it off essentially saying “it’s ok, I know better”... which is usually what doctors say when they’re confronted to solid biochemistry they may have forgotten. It would be quite pompous if I, as a pharmacist, claimed that I know Krebs as well as I did 10 years ago before my biochemistry finals. Stuff gets forgotten after decades in the field.
 

benaoao

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No reason at all. This was a long, long read but worth it. Can't wait for Part 2 to come out. Ray Peat has been right all along with low fat. I didn't take him that seriously that, as I would still drink whole milk, and I like the taste of fat in beef striploin, but I'll also eat pork fat from pork belly, but Asian pork belly has much less fat than American pork belly.

Now, I'm going to make more effort to minimize on the all animal fat much more, although it would be difficult to avoid fats from organ meats, and it would be hard to avoid pork fat sticking to pork skin.

I think though that a large part of why saturated animal fats are not healthful is due to adipose tissues being where toxins such as heavy metals are stored. This would mean that coconut oil is free from this taint. Coconut oil comes from the fruit or the nut of the tree, and most toxins would have been filtered by the trunk. So I would continue to take coconut oil. But along this line of reasoning, milk and butter should also be spared of toxins, as the toxins from the food cows eat would also have been filtered and stored in their adipose tissues.

I agree with you on fatty cuts of meat. Full on toxins. I don't know whether that applies to grain fats or mono/dicotyledones that don't have a trunk nor a shell to filter away toxins. The topic on glyphosate in Oats is an interesting one to read.

That said here's my way of doing it. Just a suggestion:
- Breakfast: lemon, orange and cranberry freshly squeezed juice, skim yogurt, dextrose or buckwheat
- Lunch: basmati, shellfish, beet and carrot salad vinegar only dressing
- Workout: fruits
- Dinner: potatoes, extra lean beef or white fish, vegetables puréed

It's not time consuming, it's cheap, it's compatible with a social life... If you feel low on calories it's easy to add more fruits or sugar to the mix.
 
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