Delaying/blocking Tryptophan Absorption In Gut

haidut

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Ray hinted in some of his email correspondence that BCAA competes with tryptophan for uptake not only in the brain but in cells throughout the body. I have been searching for studies confirming that and it seems I found some. They are attached to this email. Long story short - for every unit (mg) of tryptophan you consume, if you consume additional 10 units of BCAA that will significantly delay (or maybe even block) tryptophan absorption in gut, and thus in other cells in the body. If you don't want to consume additional supplements, it looks like plain casein can do the same.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3870690
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6213744

"...Co-administration of a mixture of ten essential amino acids, in proportions simulating casein, with
[3H]tryptophan markedly delayed absorption of tryptophan from the digestive tract."

Adding leucine to casein does NOT result in more inhibition, so eating plain old casein is just good enough. Maybe the tryptophan absorption inhibition is one of the reasons Ray said that casein had a "profound anti-stress effect".
 

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Mittir

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RP explained in an interview that cheese has a better amino acid composition
because the whey portion is removed. But there are few cheeses that have
good amount of whey. I am wondering if whole milk has similar advantage
of blocking tryptophan in the gut.
 

charlie

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Mittir said:
I am wondering if whole milk has similar advantage
of blocking tryptophan in the gut.
I was wondering the same thing. Why would whole milk matter though as opposed to lower fat milk? Is the casein in the fat?
 

Mittir

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@charlie
I meant to write milk, but i only drink whole milk.
so in my mind whole milk is the only milk.
@Haidut
I have read somewhere that casein breaks down slowly in
the digestive tracts, so that alone would slow down tryptophan
absorption. But in that rat study they used separate
amino acids to reflect casein's ratio.
I am thinking if they used casein would they have slower
absorption of tryptophan.
 

juanitacarlos

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Dumb question - but what is the benefit of delaying absorption of tryptophan? Doesn't it just get absorbed eventually?
 

haidut

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ttramone said:
Dumb question - but what is the benefit of delaying absorption of tryptophan? Doesn't it just get absorbed eventually?

Not a dumb question - I think the longer tryptophan stays in the stomach the higher the chance it will get destroyed by stomach acid, so there will be less to absorb.
 

juanitacarlos

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Thanks haidut.

So back to the milk - just googled how much casein in milk and it seems to be about 6.4g per cup. Do you think that amount would inhibit tryptophan much? I couldn't really see how much casein would be needed from the studies.
 

haidut

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ttramone said:
Thanks haidut.

So back to the milk - just googled how much casein in milk and it seems to be about 6.4g per cup. Do you think that amount would inhibit tryptophan much? I couldn't really see how much casein would be needed from the studies.

Tryptophan is only about 1% per unit of weight of casein protein. Some places listed as high as 1.2% but have not seen much more than that. Beef, lamb, goat, chicken protein has about the same amount of tryptophan (~1%) but they are much higher in phosphates, which is bad, and also lower in calcium so the tryptophan will get converted to serotonin and not to niacin.
I think I posted in one of my other threads on BCAA and carbs, that having as little as 2% of protein in any given meal will block the serotonin increases in the brain from that meal. So, if you look at milk, I think it passes the 2% test, so you should be able to delay tryptophan absorption with ~6g of casein.
 
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If 100 grams of milk have 75 milligrams of tryptophan and 2500 of casein, you could say milk actually has casein to spare for other meats and such. But if casein is really 80% of the protein in milk and 1% of 80% of 3.2g = 25mg are the other 50mg coming from just 20% of the protein?
 

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
If 100 grams of milk have 75 milligrams of tryptophan and 2500 of casein, you could say milk actually has casein to spare for other meats and such. But if casein is really 80% of the protein in milk and 1% of 80% of 3.2g = 25mg are the other 50mg coming from just 20% of the protein?


Yes, I think it's quite likely the other 50mg are coming from the remaining 20% protein (whey). Ray has said in the past that he doesn't like whey for a number of reasons, one being its higher tryptophan contents.
 

livrepensador

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haidut said:
post 34779
Such_Saturation said:
If 100 grams of milk have 75 milligrams of tryptophan and 2500 of casein, you could say milk actually has casein to spare for other meats and such. But if casein is really 80% of the protein in milk and 1% of 80% of 3.2g = 25mg are the other 50mg coming from just 20% of the protein?


Yes, I think it's quite likely the other 50mg are coming from the remaining 20% protein (whey). Ray has said in the past that he doesn't like whey for a number of reasons, one being its higher tryptophan contents.


Hey guys, another question: If you eat 75g of beef with 75g of cheese, the aminoacid profile of cheese will block the tryptophan of the meat?
 
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Nicholas

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have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
 

Giraffe

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Nicholas said:
post 114998 have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
According to the data base I check 255.1 g ground beef, raw contain 551 mg tryptophan / 9.5 g BCAA.
 
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Nicholas

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Giraffe said:
post 115014
Nicholas said:
post 114998 have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
According to the data base I check 255.1 g ground beef, raw contain 551 mg tryptophan / 9.5 g BCAA.

so wouldn't this be more than enough BCAA to delay/block tryptophan absorption?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

livrepensador

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Last edited by a moderator:

haidut

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Nicholas said:
post 115042
Giraffe said:
post 115014
Nicholas said:
post 114998 have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
According to the data base I check 255.1 g ground beef, raw contain 551 mg tryptophan / 9.5 g BCAA.

so wouldn't this be more than enough BCAA to delay/block tryptophan absorption?

The studies noticed delay of absorption but could not determine if there was also a block even though they thought it is likely. Aspirin taken with a meal will actually block a significant portion of the ingested tryptophan from absorption. I posted another thread on that so it should be easy to find.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nicholas

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haidut said:
post 115120
Nicholas said:
post 115042
Giraffe said:
post 115014
Nicholas said:
post 114998 have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
According to the data base I check 255.1 g ground beef, raw contain 551 mg tryptophan / 9.5 g BCAA.

so wouldn't this be more than enough BCAA to delay/block tryptophan absorption?

The studies noticed delay of absorption but could not determine if there was also a block even though they thought it is likely. Aspirin taken with a meal will actually block a significant portion of the ingested tryptophan from absorption. I posted another thread on that so it should be easy to find.

ok, well i would be hesitant to delay or block tryptophan anymore than the food itself does for you. the body needs tryptophan. and the body needs serotonin. in trying to manipulate aminos and hormones you are creating imbalance. I have been told that when i disagree with people here that i am not being nice. The only reason that it's not considered nice is because it goes against the establishment which you are part of. And when the establishment disagrees with a poster (whether valid or invalid) this disagreement is felt to be respectable.
 
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haidut

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Nicholas said:
post 115145
haidut said:
post 115120
Nicholas said:
post 115042
Giraffe said:
post 115014
Nicholas said:
post 114998 have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
According to the data base I check 255.1 g ground beef, raw contain 551 mg tryptophan / 9.5 g BCAA.

so wouldn't this be more than enough BCAA to delay/block tryptophan absorption?

The studies noticed delay of absorption but could not determine if there was also a block even though they thought it is likely. Aspirin taken with a meal will actually block a significant portion of the ingested tryptophan from absorption. I posted another thread on that so it should be easy to find.

ok, well i would be hesitant to delay or block tryptophan anymore than the food itself does for you. the body needs tryptophan. and the body needs serotonin. in trying to manipulate aminos and hormones you are creating imbalance. I have been told that when i disagree with people here that i am not being nice. The only reason that it's not considered nice is because it goes against the establishment which you are part of. And when the establishment disagrees with a poster (whether valid or invalid) this disagreement is felt to be respectable.

What establishment am I a part of?? If you found an approach that works for you then I don't see why there is a need for any argument about serotonin, or any other biomarker for that matter. But if you are still searching, then I have a question for you - what is the optimal level of serotonin? I'd prefer if you include references in your response.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nicholas

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haidut said:
post 115151
Nicholas said:
post 115145
haidut said:
post 115120
Nicholas said:
post 115042
Giraffe said:
post 115014
Nicholas said:
post 114998 have i done the math wrong?
9oz beef Roughly equals 405mg tryptophan/40g BCAA
According to the data base I check 255.1 g ground beef, raw contain 551 mg tryptophan / 9.5 g BCAA.

so wouldn't this be more than enough BCAA to delay/block tryptophan absorption?

The studies noticed delay of absorption but could not determine if there was also a block even though they thought it is likely. Aspirin taken with a meal will actually block a significant portion of the ingested tryptophan from absorption. I posted another thread on that so it should be easy to find.

ok, well i would be hesitant to delay or block tryptophan anymore than the food itself does for you. the body needs tryptophan. and the body needs serotonin. in trying to manipulate aminos and hormones you are creating imbalance. I have been told that when i disagree with people here that i am not being nice. The only reason that it's not considered nice is because it goes against the establishment which you are part of. And when the establishment disagrees with a poster (whether valid or invalid) this disagreement is felt to be respectable.

What establishment am I a part of?? If you found an approach that works for you then I don't see why there is a need for any argument about serotonin, or any other biomarker for that matter. But if you are still searching, then I have a question for you - what is the optimal level of serotonin? I'd prefer if you include references in your response.

i am no longer searching for an understanding of the body. my understanding of the body is rooted in biochemistry. my approach is biochemical.
 
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