Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (DSPD) And Sleep Inertia

[sleepless1]

I have have looked through Ray Peat's books, articles, and interviews and I have not seen him write about this issue.

Problem:

I have delayed sleep phase syndrome and sleep inertia. This has affected me since I was a child. It has devastated my life as I have been unable to hold down a job or finish school. My life is also solitary because I have no one to interact with except online. The worst part is waking up. The sleep inertia. My sleep schedule seems set at 5AM-12PM. Despite what time go to bed at, if I wake up before 12 I will be filled with fatigue for the entire day and inevitably fall asleep for a few hours solidifying my nocturnal sleep schedule.

Diet: Peatarian (shellfish, low PUFA, adequate sugar, etc)
Supplements: cytomel, pregnenolone, DHEA, caffeine in the morning, 1 g of Aspirin, vitamin D, E, K.

This regimen has helped my mood and health, but it has not make a dent in my sleep issues.

I know Ray Peat's views on melatonin, but it does help me to get to bed a few hours earlier. Mirtazepine, melatonin, and blue light blocking glasses can put me to sleep at a decent time. The problem is waking up and the sleep inertia. If I wake up anytime before 12 I am fatigued to the point of eventually passing out. This makes keeping a good sleep schedule impossible. I have tried chronotherapy (moving sleep a head a few hours each night) but this doesn't help because of the sleep inertia when I do get to a good schedule.

I desire to be a morning person. I say that because I am only happy in the morning, especially in the morning sun. But these days are few and far in between and are usually a result of me staying up.

So what can be done? Also, can someone forward me Ray Peat's email so I can contact him directly with this question? I cannot afford to pay him, but I can post his response online so that it will help other people afflicted with this issue.

 

[Lecarpetron]

You sound like a more extreme version of what I dealt with for about a decade. I had really bad insomnia characterized by difficulty falling asleep; once I fall asleep, I sleep very deeply and never had issues waking too early. But I had a few nights per week of falling asleep at 5 or 6am, with alarm set for 6:30. I managed to keep working through it, though I was often miserable. Anyway...

First thing I notice is that your supplements have more "energy boosters" than "stress relievers." I think with insomnia as your primary issue it's better to focus on stress reducers...cypro is a must, maybe clonidine, Magnesium, etc. Aspirin in large doses, T3, and caffeine are not helping you if your stress hormones are through the roof, I would bet. Other recommendations: focus your diet on very easy to digest food. Never let yourself feel hungry (at first...once you are sleeping well you can allow normal hunger signals to return without spiking adrenaline). Force yourself to wake up at 9am, have something small to eat, then go for a slow walk outside where you have enough clothing on to feel warm. Don't go back to sleep - knit a scarf, go bowling, paint frescoes, just DON'T let yourself sleep.

A few questions: how are your temps - can you track them 4x/day and get a sense of the diurnal fluctuations? Also, what is your pulse? You say you don't have friends...do you live with supportive family?

 

[Terma]

I struggled with that. Basically you need a cortisol and NAD spike (which fuels the tyrosine->dopamine) in the morning. You'd probably want to get your 24 hour cortisol test.

Ultimately the best thing I tried - but this was an odd one - was 15mg of 5a-DHP sublingual on waking, every 2-3 days. I still find it odd because it's not physiological at all, but it worked. The alternative is 5mg before bed. Or a little progesterone but that's getting obvious.

Otherwise at bedtime it's worth trying some other hard hitters like GHB/Sodium oxybate (Xyrem), baclofen, gapapentin, pregabalin (lyrica), to a limited extent phenibut, however these don't produce physiologically-identical or "real" sleep to my knowledge. But it may produce different sleep quality and effect on hormones than the ones you listed.

Something like Lisuride makes much theoretical sense in the morning, but that's completely untested.

B2/R5P upon waking (together with the cytomel) and niacinamide/B3 in the evening (somewhere between dinner and bed).

Vitamin A and retinoic acid are essential for circadian rhythms, so liver. I never figured out the best time time to consume it or if it really matters. One way or another, eating liver helped.

 

[DaveFoster]

Disregulation of circadian rhythms often appears in depression, and those who take antidepressants will sometimes report a normalization of sleeping patterns.

 

[burtlancast]

The pineal gland has a receptor for iodine: fluorine has been known to attach to the same receptor, accumulate in that organ and then disturb melatonin secretion.

People with similar problems in their sleep patterns have used simple iodine at 5-10 drops ( about 35-70 mg) and have miraculously returned to a normal sleep cycle in just a few days, as iodine starts to evacuate fluoride and other toxins (mercury, arsenic, bromide) from the brain.

Worth a shot.

 

[Luckytype]

Have you tried a full 38 awake reset?

Ive struggled with sleep for 20ish years, had some good productive days when I didn't have time to sleep. So what ultimately led to my very poor health was probably something that made me get a lot more done in my younger years. Are used to be able to reset my Sleep Cycle by staying up during the times my then mangled sleep schedule would have me asleep. I would simply stay distracted and stay well fed and by the time 789 or 10 PM rolled around I was so exhausted from being up for more than a day that it was somewhat easy to fall sleep.

I never used stimulants the way a lot of people do to stay up however I have been able to stay up for a few days and an end as long as I was using my brain and making sure I was hydrated with enough salt in enough sugar, this was before I found the forum and Dr. Peats work so it was somewhat instinctive.

If you havent tried a reset you should just stay up overnight tonight and make sure to be active during the day. As long as you are well fed with salt and sugar and have a warm shower when youre ready for bed, youll sleep.

 

[kyle]

Have you tried the potato extract?

 

[stevski]

Hi Sleepless1,

I also suffer from delayed sleep phase syndrome. Ive had it for about 23 years now. Was diagnosed with it by a sleep specialist after having undergone a sleep test. the doctors say there is no cure, that i have to adjust my life to suit. But there have been periods in my life, for about a month or two at a time, that have defied the diagnosis, where ive been able to get to sleep by 10pm. But after a while i returned to my delayed cycle and any attempts i make to try reproduce the conditions are without success. Usually, my circadian clock is set to fall asleep between 5-6am and 12pm just like you.

Though, i hate this condition. I hate sleeping through half the day and staying up all night. As ray says, night time is usually a stressful time on the body and i'd rather not endure the dark hours awake, but sleeping. So, it irritates me to no end. no amount of "clock resetting" by staying up more than 24hours or setting the alarm to wake up at the same time every day works. ive tried all the "resets" possible. Ive spent years getting up at 8am to get to work, only to spend the years with getting by on 3 hours of sleep (thankfully i can catch up a little on weekends), but the sleep debt continues.

I have been eating Peaty for about 3 years now. And have experienced improvements in overall health, but i havent been able to fix my DSPS using diet and supplements. Ive tried many sleep aids and supplements to improve metabolism, such as:

progesterone (doses high enough to induce sedation)
cyproheptadine
diphenhydramine
doxylamine succinate

The above all help in the short term, but the sedative effects usually wear off after several days. so, i can only use them intermittently for their sedation.

pregnenolone
thyroid (tried NDT and T3 only)
aspirin, vit A, D, E and K
Methylene blue
activated charcoal
penicillin, minocycline (i used these because i had digestive issues. e.g. they helped eliminate chronic gas and bloating)

I have hypothyroidism, and believe my DSPS started when i became hypothyroid in my teens. its only until recently, with thyroid and supplements, that ive been able to bring my metabolism up a bit. my temps were always in the low 36's (even high 25's sometimes) and my pulse at 60bpm. always had cold hands and feet, intolerable to cold weather. With T3, ive been able to get temps up to mid to high 36's and pulse up to 85-90bpm. extremeties still get cold, though. Thyroid has helped with many health issues ive had related to hypothyroidism, such as asthma, constipation, alergies, polyuria, keratosis pilaris, and anxiety. But it hasnt helped my sleep.

funnily enough, i used DNP for about 3 weeks (when i found out its a mitoncondrial uncoupler). this helped raise my metabolism more and, whilst i was taking it, i managed to be able to get to sleep much earlier (around 1-2am, instead of 5-6am), but its side effects got to be too much for me so i had to discontinue. Thus, i have a suspicion the high stress hormones at night combined with hypothyroidism might be at play with this condition.

If you are able to receive some direct advice from Ray on delayed sleep phase syndrome id really love to hear about it. so, please post here, id like to hear his response.

 

[sleepless1]

Thank you for your helpful responses.

Could someone with Ray Peat's contact information forward him this thread and post his response? It would be helpful to many people, myself, and stevski included.

I can get to bed 'relatively' early (for me, 2AM) if I follow a strict sleep hygiene regimen of wearing blue light blocking glasses at night, taking 3mg's melatonin at 9PM and Mirtazepine at around 10PM-10:30PM. It is waking up that is the hard part. I will oversleep until my set waking time of 11:30AM-12PM and if I wake up earlier the sleep inertia is so fatiguing I end up falling asleep for a couple hours in the afternoon resetting my schedule back to where it was. Right now I'm trialling: set alarm at 9AM, wake up and take caffeine tablets (adenosine agonist) and a nicotine patch, have a lightbox programmed to start at 9AM, have the curtains open so my room is filled with blue light, but I still sleep right through and if I can find the fortitude to wake up, then I cannot stay up.

As for what worked for me: Pregnenolone helped me wake up early for a month, so did Bupropion, these were the happiest an most productive two months in my life, but both lost efficacy.

Edit:

The "CLOCK gene":
Rs1801260:
GG: higher activity levels in the evening, delayed sleep onset.
AG: somewhat delayed sleep

I am A /G

For another gene linked to DSPS

Rs10462021

I am A / A

 

[burtlancast]

The pineal gland has a receptor for iodine: fluorine has been known to attach to the same receptor, accumulate in that organ and then disturb melatonin secretion.

People with similar problems in their sleep patterns have used simple iodine at 5-10 drops ( about 35-70 mg) and have miraculously returned to a normal sleep cycle in just a few days, as iodine starts to evacuate fluoride and other toxins (mercury, arsenic, bromide) from the brain.

Worth a shot.

Stumbled by chance on this testimonial of using Boron to detoxify fluoride from the brain, resolving 2 cases of delayed sleep phase syndrome in the same family:

Posted by Stacey (Colorado Springs Area, Co, Usa) on 12/01/2011
5 out of 5 stars

I wanted to share my experience with the Borax protocol for removing fluoride from the body. My theory was that my daughter's "non-24 hour sleep-wake syndrome" (very rare circadian rhythm sleep disorder) was caused by unintentional cumulative chronic fluoride intake (water), so we tried Borax to see if it would remove the fluoride and fix the problem. We gave her a tiny fraction of the recommended adult dosage because she is still quite young. Within about two months of gradually stepping up her dose (still not very much! ) she started sleeping at the same time every day (the non-24 hour disorder caused her to operate on a 25-hour internal clock and she went to bed an hour later and woke up an hour later each day). Now she has reverted back to the less severe "delayed sleep phase syndrome" going to bed very late, around 3am each day for the past month at least (which is how she slept before the shifting phase began). I could hardly believe it was working so I waited many weeks before getting too excited about what I was seeing. Nothing else we tried had made the cycle even budge. I believe she will eventually move to a more normal bedtime, which she has never yet been able to have in her first 3.5 years of life. When this happens, I will post updates!

My husband had the delayed sleep phase for most of his adult life and used the same protocol alongside my daughter. He now reports wanting to go to bed much earlier, rarely able to even stay up past midnight. He is reporting sleeping more deeply now as well. He has not even reached his full dose yet, as he does experience mild headaches when he increases his dose so he is going very slowly. I feel that his success with the Borax protocol is further proof that my daughter didn't just grow out of it.

I believe our fluoridated water also caused three of our pets to become ill with kidney failure type of symptoms and all died from this within just over a year's time frame (quite a coincidence). Now I wonder what else the fluoride has been doing to us, but at least we are doing something to reverse it. I urge everyone to look up the many, MANY sources of the fluoride scourge that esp. Americans are being assaulted with from all sides. Then, figure out how to avoid it (most water filters do not remove it). But esp. if you have some crazy sleep patterns, or you have been diagnosed with insomnia but feel you may have been misdiagnosed, please check into the fluoride toxicity issue. I hope this post helps someone!!!

Seems there's a pattern here of fluoride excretion able to reverse delayed sleep phase syndrome, with the help of either Iodine or Boron.

 

[thomas00]

Lisuride reliably resets DSPD for me. Usually within a few days of use.