haidut

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Is the fact they are not metabolized not a bad sign?
From what you say and what I see in the studies it could help with liver injuries and endotoxin related issues but not sure what effects it could have topically on scar tissue (e.g. peyronie's disease, so scar tissue below the skin).

True, have not see much evidence on scar tissue. As far as metabolism - they are still metabolized, just much more slowly. That's why I said "resistant" to metabolism. The studies that looked at them did not find any issues, but feel free to post here anything you may find in that regard.
 

Koveras

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That's my hope as well, but the methyl oleate in Gonadin is also important for the effects of that supplement. The study in the Gonadin thread showed that methyl palmitate on its own only had androgenic effects but did not raise T levels. Only the combination of MP and MO both raised T levels and had androgenic effects on prostate and seminal vesicles. But I'll settle for the androgenic, anti-serototin, pro-dopamine and anti-endotoxin effects :)

I've seen here and elsewhere that saturated fats can contribute to some endoplasmic reticulum stress. Wonder if the benefit of the MP/MO combination is through a reduction in ER stress with the oleate.

Oleate protects beta-cells from the toxic effect of palmitate by activating pro-survival pathways of the ER stress response. - PubMed - NCBI

"Long-term exposure of beta cells to saturated fatty acids impairs insulin secretion and increases apoptosis. In contrast, unsaturated fatty acids protect beta-cells from the long-term negative effects of saturated fatty acids. We aimed to identify the mechanisms underlying this protective action of unsaturated fatty acids. To address the aim, insulin-secreting MIN6 cells were exposed to palmitate in the absence or presence of oleate and analyzed by using nano-LC MS/MS based proteomic approach. Important findings were validated by using alternative approaches. Proteomic analysis identified 34 proteins differentially expressed in the presence of palmitate compared to control samples. These proteins play a role in insulin processing, mitochondrial function, metabolism of biomolecules, calcium homeostasis, exocytosis, receptor signaling, ER protein folding, antioxidant activity and anti-apoptotic function. When oleate was also present during culture, expression of 15 proteins was different from the expression in the presence of palmitate alone. Most of the proteins affected by oleate are targets of the ER stress response and play a pro-survival role in beta cells such as protein folding and antioxidative defence. We conclude that restoration of pro-survival pathways of the ER stress response is a major mechanism underlying the protective effect of unsaturated fatty acids in beta-cells treated with saturated fatty acids."
 

Orion

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@haidut When the body is unable to maintain glycogen storage for longer periods, what is the mechanism that prevents this? Considering the liver, is it fibrosis and fat levels that block storage? DeFibron seems like some that could help with storage.
 

jb116

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About fatty liver, here is a paper that is pretty anti Peat and pro @tyw Nutritional Pathology
That's deceiving since it's not necessarily fatty liver that's the issue but liver steaosis, fibrosis and cirrhosis that really create health problems. Right before pathological states the fat starts to dissipate but the individual is in a worse state healthwise. Specifically pointing out fatty liver is not the same as saying here's a severe pathological state. It's the unsaturated fats that deplete apoproteins as well as create peroxide that harm the liver. There's a reason those specific Indians regions Peat mentioned hardly experience these pathologied because of the protective saturated fatty acids of coconut oil. That's what could make this new haidut supplement such a hit.
 

dfspcc20

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Looks like a gonadin and diamant had a baby and this is it.

I haven't been keeping up with all the IdeaLabs research chemicals and am trying to catch up now. Comments like this make it seem like some newer products might supersede old ones. @haidut is this the case?
 

haidut

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@haidut When the body is unable to maintain glycogen storage for longer periods, what is the mechanism that prevents this? Considering the liver, is it fibrosis and fat levels that block storage? DeFibron seems like some that could help with storage.

A fattened liver does not store glycogen well due to the overload with fat and a fibrotic liver is filled with dead tissue which cannot store anything (glucose or fat). Low metabolism and low ATP levels are usually behind inability to store glycogen, and fat deposits in the liver contribute to that process as well. Saturated fat intake has been shown to help with liver fibrosis and recovery of glycogen storage abilities. The interaction of PUFA with iron as well as PUFA metabolism down the inflammatory pathways is the main driver of fibrosis (and ultimately cancer). The mechanism of protection of saturated fat is mainly prevention of PUFA oxidation and reaction with iron, and some SFA also directly inhibit COX and LOX enzymes, so SFA lowers inflammation as well.
 

haidut

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I haven't been keeping up with all the IdeaLabs research chemicals and am trying to catch up now. Comments like this make it seem like some newer products might supersede old ones. @haidut is this the case?

I think there are parallels between Diamant and DeFibron, as well as Gonadin but I would not consider one of them superseding the other(s). The adamantane in Diamant is akin to an extremely stable form of saturated fat that cannot be metabolized much and when present in the cell it protects from some of the negative effects of PUFA. It makes the cell more lipophillic, with all of the associated benefits. Adamantane is basically a fully saturated cage of carbon and hydrogen. Saturated fats are a fully saturated chain of carbon and hydrogen, with some extra elements like COOH groups and since our body has enzymes designed to metabolize them they get converted to energy and some byproducts. So, adamantane and saturated fats have similarly stabilizing effects on the cell but adamantane is likely much longer-acting as we have seen in practice. But adamantane has other properties of its own, including increaseing dopamine synthesis, and inhibting reuptake much more potently than saturated fats would. But saturated fats also have some of these. The general principle is the same - delivering saturated carbon/hydrogen compounds is likely to be beneficial but due to their different molecular structure, the focus of benefits may vary. In the case of saturated fats it seems liver, lungs, skin and gonads are the primary targets, while in the cases of adamantanes the brain seems like a preferential target.
Gonadin has steroidal precursors like squalene and phytol, which neither Diamant nor DeFibron have so the effects on steroid metabolism of Gonadin is likely not shared by neither Diamant nor DeFeibron.
But good thinking on the parallels. I think is underscores the consistency of everything Peat has been writing about and why I have so many ideas to follow up on for every supplement we release :):
 

GAF

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Methyl palmitate P5177

Description
Packaging
1, 5, 25 g in glass bottle

Biochem/physiol Actions
Methyl palmitate has anti-inflammatory and anti-fibrotic effect. Methyl palmitate prevents bleomycin-induced lung inflammation and fibrosis in rats, by inhibiting NF-κB [2]. Methyl palmitate also prevents CCl4-induced liver fibrosis linked to reduced TGF-β [3].
 

haidut

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I think that study is in the References section already. Anyways, the study is framed neutrally but the same group of scientists did another study with MP as a vasorelaxant for large blood vessels like aortas and another study showed MP to be protective in ischemic strokes and other ischemic events. It seems to oppose the vasocontriction effects of adrenaline and (very importantly) the mechanism of action is NOT dependent on the release of NO. So, it seems to be a safer vasodilator and may result in lowering of blood pressure, which is also an effect seen with consuming larger amounts coconut oil or isolated palmitic acid.
Endogenous methyl palmitate modulates nicotinic receptor-mediated transmission in the superior cervical ganglion. - PubMed - NCBI

Neuroprotection in ischemic stroke:
The role of fatty acids in the regulation of cerebral vascular function and neuroprotection in ischemia. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.ocl-journal.org/articles/ocl/pdf/2016/01/ocl150040-s.pdf
"...Lin et al., 2008, 2014 reported that PAME but not SAME is a vasoactive substance causing vasodilation while SAME is not a vasoactive substance but can provide neuroprotection against ischemia along with PAME in both animal models of global and focal ischemia. It is interesting to note that the synthesis of PA/SA is well-known but the methyl esterification of PA/SA to form PAME/SAME is not prevalent in nature and therefore, not well-understood (Lin and Perez-Pinzon, 2013)."

"...Only recently has PAME and SAME been presented as a novel component in neuroprotection during cerebral ischemia (Lin and Perez-Pinzon, 2013; Lin et al., 2014). PAME and SAME are simultaneously released from the sympathetic nervous system (Lin et al., 2008). More specifically, PAME has been shown to induce aortic vasodilation and neuroprotection, while SAME causes neuroprotection in cardiac arrest and middle cerebral artery occlusion (MCAO) models of ischemia. More specifically, PAME/SAME was first discovered to be released from the superior cervical ganglion (SCG) upon electrical/chemical depolarization. Endogenous application of PAME induced aortic vasodilation and was found to be 3000 times more potent than other known nitric oxide (NO) donors (Lin et al., 2008). With proper timing and dosage, administration of PAME and SAME can be a successful therapy against cerebral ischemia."
 

Velve921

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A fattened liver does not store glycogen well due to the overload with fat and a fibrotic liver is filled with dead tissue which cannot store anything (glucose or fat). Low metabolism and low ATP levels are usually behind inability to store glycogen, and fat deposits in the liver contribute to that process as well. Saturated fat intake has been shown to help with liver fibrosis and recovery of glycogen storage abilities. The interaction of PUFA with iron as well as PUFA metabolism down the inflammatory pathways is the main driver of fibrosis (and ultimately cancer). The mechanism of protection of saturated fat is mainly prevention of PUFA oxidation and reaction with iron, and some SFA also directly inhibit COX and LOX enzymes, so SFA lowers inflammation as well.

As I've been low PufA for over 3 years, I still need 150 grams of total fat to get through the day and sleep well. Would this product have any effect on lowering appetite and improving blood sugar?
 

haidut

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As I've been low PufA for over 3 years, I still need 150 grams of total fat to get through the day and sleep well. Would this product have any effect on lowering appetite and improving blood sugar?

It did for me, as far as appetite is concerned. Seems to make me more energetic for some reason. Haven't measured blood sugar but mine is not high to start with.
 

Velve921

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It did for me, as far as appetite is concerned. Seems to make me more energetic for some reason. Haven't measured blood sugar but mine is not high to start with.

Have any other substances compared in lowering appetite?

For example, at night I generally need a ton of ice cream to get through the night which I know a lot of my fat retention is coming from. Id like to find something that would lower my appetite but keep metabolism high.
 

brix

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It did for me, as far as appetite is concerned. Seems to make me more energetic for some reason. Haven't measured blood sugar but mine is not high to start with.

What other effects did your rats notice during experimentation?
 

haidut

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What other effects did your rats notice during experimentation?

More energy, better mood, and fuller/harder muscles combined with increased strength. Much better digestion and resistance to spicy foods, which normally cause IBS-like symptoms depending on how spicy the food is.
 

tallglass13

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@haidut. . Is there Any reason why we can't combine a bottle of Gonadin and a bottle of Defibron to get the best of both worlds in One supplement.. for experimental use on rats
 

haidut

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@haidut. . Is there Any reason why we can't combine a bottle of Gonadin and a bottle of Defibron to get the best of both worlds in One supplement.. for experimental use on rats

Sure, I don't see an issue with combining them. But the doses will get mixed up as they are very different in bottle and dropper size.
 
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