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Deep Sea Gigantism - Could Carbon Dioxide/metabolism play a role in deep-sea animals gigantic size

JamesGatz

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Deep-Sea Gigantism


" In zoology, deep-sea gigantism is the tendency for species of invertebrates and other deep-sea dwelling animals to be larger than their shallower-water relatives across a large taxonomic range. Proposed explanations for this type of gigantism include colder temperature, food scarcity, reduced predation pressure and increased dissolved oxygen concentrations in the deep sea. The inaccessibility of abyssal habitats has hindered the study of this topic."


I think we should have a discussion on the size of animals in the oceans - it seems that the deeper you go into the ocean - the larger that animals become within their own species (I'm sure most of you have heard of the Giant Squid) - I will post the many theories of why "experts" think this is so and post my thoughts and we can have a discussion

I think this argument maybe can help support that metabolic rate does seem to affect the height or size of an organism - I am not making the claim that genetics do not matter - I am making the claim that metabolic rate may have a noticeable effect on size


300px-Giant_squid_Ranheim2.jpg

Examination of a 9 m (30 ft) giant squid, the second largest cephalopod, that washed ashore in Norway.
In marine crustaceans, the trend of increasing size with depth has been observed in mysids, euphausiids, decapods, isopods and amphipods.[1][2] Non-arthropods in which deep-sea gigantism has been observed are cephalopods, cnidarians, and eels from the order Anguilliformes.[3]

Other [animals] attain under them gigantic proportions. It is especially certain crustacea which exhibit this latter peculiarity, but not all crustacea, for the crayfish like forms in the deep sea are of ordinary size. I have already referred to a gigantic Pycnogonid [sea spider] dredged by us. Mr. Agassiz dredged a gigantic Isopod 11 inches [28 centimetres] in length. We also dredged a gigantic Ostracod. For over 125 years, scientists have contemplated the extreme size of Bathynomus giganteus. – Henry Nottidge Moseley, 1880[4]
Examples of deep-sea gigantism include the big red jellyfish,[5] the giant isopod,[4] giant ostracod,[4] the giant sea spider,[4] the giant amphipod, the Japanese spider crab, the giant oarfish, the deepwater stingray, the seven-arm octopus,[6] and a number of squid species: the colossal squid (up to 14 m in length),[7] the giant squid (up to 12 m),[7] Onykia robusta, Taningia danae, Galiteuthis phyllura, Kondakovia longimana, and the bigfin squid.

Deep-sea gigantism is not generally observed in the meiofauna (organisms that pass through a 1 mm mesh), which actually exhibit the reverse trend of decreasing size with depth.[8]


291px-Japanese_spider_crab.jpg

A Japanese spider crab whose outstretched legs measured 3.7 m (12 ft) across.

Giant_Oarfish.jpg

A 7 m (23 ft) king of herrings oarfish, caught off California.


Normie Explanations for why this seems to be the case:

Lower temperature - (this sounds like BS to me personally)​

In crustaceans, it has been proposed that the explanation for the increase in size with depth is similar to that for the increase in size with latitude (Bergmann's rule): both trends involve increasing size with decreasing temperature.[1] The trend with latitude has been observed in some of the same groups, both in comparisons of related species, as well as within widely distributed species.[1] Decreasing temperature is thought to result in increased cell size and increased life span (the latter also being associated with delayed sexual maturity[8]), both of which lead to an increase in maximum body size (continued growth throughout life is characteristic of crustaceans).[1] In Arctic and Antarctic seas where there is a reduced vertical temperature gradient, there is also a reduced trend towards increased body size with depth, arguing against hydrostatic pressure being an important parameter.

Temperature does not appear to have a similar role in influencing the size of giant tube worms. Riftia pachyptila, which lives in hydrothermal vent communities at ambient temperatures of 2–30 °C,[9] reaches lengths of 2.7 m, comparable to those of Lamellibrachia luymesi, which lives in cold seeps. The former, however, has rapid growth rates and short life spans of about 2 years,[10] while the latter is slow growing and may live over 250 years.

Food scarcity - (these are some interesting thoughts but don't seem to be 100% right)​

Food scarcity at depths greater than 400 m is also thought to be a factor, since larger body size can improve ability to forage for widely scattered resources.[8] In organisms with planktonic eggs or larvae, another possible advantage is that larger offspring, with greater initial stored food reserves, can drift for greater distances.[8] As an example of adaptations to this situation, giant isopods gorge on food when available, distending their bodies to the point of compromising ability to locomote;[12] they can also survive 5 years without food in captivity.[13][14]

According to Kleiber's rule,[15] the larger an animal gets, the more efficient its metabolism becomes; i.e., an animal's metabolic rate scales to roughly the ¾ power of its mass. Under conditions of limited food supply, this may provide additional benefit to large size.

Reduced predation pressure - (this sounds like BS to me personally because i think if predation pressure was a thing i think we would see humans as a species growing a lot larger - the opposite seems to be true)​

An additional possible influence is reduced predation pressure in deeper waters.[16] A study of brachiopods found that predation was nearly an order of magnitude less frequent at the greatest depths than in shallow waters.[16]

Increased dissolved oxygen (this i find interesting)​

Dissolved oxygen levels are also thought to play a role in deep-sea gigantism. A 1999 study of benthic amphipod crustaceans found that maximum potential organism size directly correlates with increased dissolved oxygen levels of deeper waters.[17] The solubility of dissolved oxygen in the oceans is known to increase with depth because of increasing pressure, decreasing salinity levels and temperature.[17]

The proposed theory behind this trend is that deep-sea gigantism could be an adaptive trait to combat asphyxiation in ocean waters.[18] Larger organisms are able to intake more dissolved oxygen within the ocean, allowing for sufficient respiration. However, this increased absorption of oxygen runs the risk of toxicity poisoning where an organism can have oxygen levels that are so high that they become harmful and poisonous.[18]

(this is from a global warming scam website but i think is good to insert here)


"Low concentrations of oxygen can have similar effects. Currently, deep-sea life is threatened by a combination of increasing carbon dioxide and decreasing oxygen concentrations. The amount of dissolved carbon dioxide is increasing because the oceans are taking up more and more carbon dioxide from the atmosphere."


I am interested in hearing more theories for users too - many animal species across the board seem to grow extremely large compared to their relatives the deeper in the water you go

6. GIANT SQUID​

The giant squid is very large since it can grow up to 14m. They are equivalent to the size of the five-story building. They are terrifying because it is believed that they eat small whales. The problem is that small whales are not very small actually. Giant squid belongs to the family Architeuthidae. The male can grow up to 14m while the female can grow up to 10m

One of the biggest and dangerous deep-sea creatures, Giant squid can grow up to 59 feet in length making it one of the biggest animal on the planet. It weighs around one ton of weight and females are usually larger than males. You can imagine the size of Giant squid because they can be as long as a school bus. Talking about the appearance, It has a large head with eight arms and two tentacles used for grabbing prey. Also, they have strong jaws similar to a parrot beak. The species loved to eat other squids, fish and shrimps, however, according to different researchers they can also attack and eat small whales.

Giant-squid.jpg
Blue Whale Habitat
The blue whale is an oceanic animal, preferring deep waters in the middle of the ocean to coastal waters. They reside in temperate and cold water regions. As such, they can be found in all large water bodies of the world, which include the Pacific Ocean, Antarctic Ocean and the Atlantic Ocean.

The Antarctic blue whale (Balaenoptera musculus ssp. Intermedia) is the biggest animal on the planet, weighing up to 400,000 pounds (approximately 33 elephants) and reaching up to 98 feet in length.

34fu5zob0a_Small_WW2154941.jpg

By using sophisticated satellite tags on this gentle giants, scientists indeed recently made an incredible discovery, that whale sharks can live in depths of nearly 6,000 feet (1,800 meters) in other words the gentle giants are truly masters of the deep.

whaleshark.jpg

The Giant Pacific Octupus seems to be somewhat of an interesting exception:

Giant Pacific octopus occurs along the Pacific coast from Southern California north to Alaska and across to Japan. It is found in habitats that range from shallow tidal pools to ocean depths of about 4,920 feet (1500 m). It is most abundant in shallow waters to 16 feet (5 m) deep.
 

sun-maid

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The bigger you are, the colder you are. The bigger body have less surface for more volume, thus keeping the temperature up. The smaller body have more surface for less volume to help the heat escape the body. Its basic chemistry : Increasing the surface area of a substance generally increases the rate of a chemical reaction.

I think their size is just a way to adapt to a cold (and dark) environment where food is scarce.
 

JamesGatz

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The bigger you are, the colder you are. The bigger body have less surface for more volume, thus keeping the temperature up. The smaller body have more surface for less volume to help the heat escape the body. Its basic chemistry : Increasing the surface area of a substance generally increases the rate of a chemical reaction.

I think their size is just a way to adapt to a cold (and dark) environment where food is scarce.
So is it the bigger you are the warmer you are ? This is interesting and I think it raises the question so then are people and animals in colder climates generally grow bigger as well (maybe have a higher height)
 

md_a

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"The killer proof that CO2 does not drive climate is to be found during the Ordovician- Silurian and the Jurassic-Cretaceous periods when CO2 levels were greater than 4000 ppmv (parts per million by volume) and about 2000 ppmv respectively. If the IPCC theory is correct there should have been runaway greenhouse induced global warming during these periods but instead there was glaciation."
fosteretal2017fromexcel-1600px.jpg
 

Gustav3Y

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There was the question of big whales living on land. Of course nowadays it is claimed the biggest of the whales have been hunted already and the whales today are slightly less big as before.
However the theory is that a very big whale body is not possible on land as easily because water holds that weight better than having to use feet on land.
But then sperm whales go at depths that have huge pressure on them (meaning the same water that allows their heavy bodies to move easily not simply weights on them from all directions putting pressure on their bodies)
 

Gustav3Y

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Yes, look at how high CO2 was when dinosaurs were about.
The claim for very large dragonflies (as discovered in fossils) in the same times was supposedly because there was more oxygen not because less.
 

JamesGatz

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Great article, thank you.
Yes - no problem

Yes, look at how high CO2 was when dinosaurs were about.
Yes I agree - even besides the dinosaurs massive sizes and weight it seems that insects and plants were far larger as well - i think this makes a strong case of atmosphere's effects on size and weight

"The killer proof that CO2 does not drive climate is to be found during the Ordovician- Silurian and the Jurassic-Cretaceous periods when CO2 levels were greater than 4000 ppmv (parts per million by volume) and about 2000 ppmv respectively. If the IPCC theory is correct there should have been runaway greenhouse induced global warming during these periods but instead there was glaciation."
View attachment 29039
Yes I agree with this

There was the question of big whales living on land. Of course nowadays it is claimed the biggest of the whales have been hunted already and the whales today are slightly less big as before.
However the theory is that a very big whale body is not possible on land as easily because water holds that weight better than having to use feet on land.
But then sperm whales go at depths that have huge pressure on them (meaning the same water that allows their heavy bodies to move easily not simply weights on them from all directions putting pressure on their bodies)
People claim that Whales used to live on land ? this is very interesting hadn't heard of this
 

Gustav3Y

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I have not said that whales used to leave on land, they attempted to theory why such huge bodies aren't possible today on land and how water has an advantage to big bodies.
 

JamesGatz

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I also find it interesting how whales and dolphins seem to spend their entire lives holding their breath/retaining Carbon Dioxide -

Dolphins noted for their intelligence

Whales noted for their size

It's interesting that doplhins don't grow as big - but they also don't dive as deep .... interesting to think about
 

sun-maid

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So is it the bigger you are the warmer you are ? This is interesting and I think it raises the question so then are people and animals in colder climates generally grow bigger as well (maybe have a higher height)

Not exactly, the colder your environment, the bigger you get. The same principal applies to all species including human. I think being cold increase your GH, but GH is "bad". Peat always said that smaller people eat more and live longer. I guess its good to be tall, but not too much (from a life expectancy point of view).
 

Quelsatron

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Darker climate, colder temperatures and more scarce food. Am i describing the arctic or the deep sea? Interesting thread
 
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