Deca Nandrolone As A Bio Identical Form Of Trt

[haidut]

do you think masteron or stenbolone could be used well standalone or with dhea or progesterone to mitigate anti androgen and further increase anabolism and androgenic action of topical or oral dhea with out suppression? Maybe ratio idea of these dht derivatives in conjunction with dhea and or progesterone. I’m sure most people could care less about 50 pounds of mass gain. most of us really want to increase androgens and sensitivity with at least athletic and mental benefit to a safe degree without being a vampire to trt clinics for life.

I think adding some pregnenolone/DHEA is a good idea for any AAS regimen. Not only it helps mitigate side effects but pregnenolone may also potentiate effects of AAS and allow much lower doses to be used. The main Pansterone post has a study that talks about that.
Primobolan is pretty much the same as Stenbolone. Actually, the latter may be a bit more resistant to deactivation since the methyl group is on position C-2 instead of C-1, but the differences are probably minor. I would not use esters though and Primobolan seems to be used/available mostly as an ester.

 

[Ami]

I think adding some pregnenolone/DHEA is a good idea for any AAS regimen. Not only it helps mitigate side effects but pregnenolone may also potentiate effects of AAS and allow much lower doses to be used. The main Pansterone post has a study that talks about that.
Primobolan is pretty much the same as Stenbolone. Actually, the latter may be a bit more resistant to deactivation since the methyl group is on position C-2 instead of C-1, but the differences are probably minor. I would not use esters though and Primobolan seems to be used/available mostly as an ester.

Aren't most esters just saturated fatty acids?

 

[japanesedude]

@haidut Does progesterone potentiate the effects of AAS too?

 

[haidut]

@haidut Does progesterone potentiate the effects of AAS too?

If the AAS is weaker than progesterone as antagonist on GR, then probably yes. So, combining T with progesterone should be more "anabolic" than T on its own, and will also inhibit T conversion into estrogen. However, trenbolone will probably not benefit much in terms of anabolism from combining with progesterone since trenbolone is itself a VERY potent GR antagonist. However, adding progesterone to potent steroids like trenbolone may still be beneficial as it would negate some of their harmful effects on mood/brain, which is due mostly to those steroids' inhibitory effects on progesterone synthesis and its conversion into other neurosteroids like allopregnanolone.

 

[Cameron]

I think adding some pregnenolone/DHEA is a good idea for any AAS regimen. Not only it helps mitigate side effects but pregnenolone may also potentiate effects of AAS and allow much lower doses to be used. The main Pansterone post has a study that talks about that.
Primobolan is pretty much the same as Stenbolone. Actually, the latter may be a bit more resistant to deactivation since the methyl group is on position C-2 instead of C-1, but the differences are probably minor. I would not use esters though and Primobolan seems to be used/available mostly as an ester.

original primobolan is mainly marketed by Schering, which sells primobolan as 5 mg tabs, 25 mg tabs, 50 mg tabs, and sells Primobolan Depot as Primobolan Depot (Mexico) 50 mg/ml, Primobolan Depot mites (G) 50 mg/ml, and Primobolan Depot 100 mg/ml. However, due to high cost of Primobolan, a number of fake Primo products have come into the market. Viromone is probably the heaviest faked product on the market. British Dragon (BD) Primobol 100 is a solid and trusted product. primobolan is commonly used by the people who don't want estrogenic side effects. It is generally used as a replacement for nandrolone or boldenone to those who have no access to Deca-Durabolin or Laurabolin or Equipoise. Many bodybuilders use primobolan in between steroid cycles during their "off-time" to help maintain their gains and strength. Primobolan is often used as a replacement for nandrolone or boldenone to those who have no access to Deca-Durabolin or Laurabolin or Equipoise. Also The chemical name of primobolan is Methenolone, and the pharmaceutical pame of primobolan is 1-methyl-1-testosterone. Thus, primobolan is chemically Methenolone Enanthate, Or Methenolone Enanthate. It is a dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Its chemical structure is 17 beta-hydroxy-1-methyl-5 alpha-androst-1-en-3-one. It does not aromatise to estrogen; primobolan does not form any estrogens when it interacts with the aromatase enzyme. The active life of Primobolan Depot (injectable) is 10-14 days, and of Primobolan (tablets) is 4-6hrs. Its detection time is 4-5 weeks.

DOSAGE The available doses of Primobolan (tablets) and Primobolan Depot (injectable) are 50 or 100 mg/ml or 5, 25 and 50 mg tabs. Its effective dose is 200-300 mg/week injections or 50-150 mg/day orally. The effective dose of primobolan (oral) for Men is 50-100mgs/day, and for Women is 10-25mgs/day. The effective dose of Primobolan Depot (injectable) for Men is 350-600mgs/week, and for Women is 100mgs/week.

SIDE EFFECTS Primobolan is a safe steroid. It has few side effects. It doesn't cause any estrogenic side effects, such as acne, water retention, gyno, etc. Its effects on cholesterol levels are minimal. It rarely alter blood pressure. Primobolan is usually considered as side-effect free. Normally, primobolan does not affect libido, but in some vary rare cases, primobolan may lower down libido.

 

[Cameron]

Primo or Masteron oral seems to be the best bet with proper nutrition and a focus in keeping dhea preg progesterone levels sufficient also using in cycles I’m still a fan of coming off hormones and not being stuck on trt for life or blasting and crushing and being a drug addict and relying on compounds to function. Not promoting don’t do anything illegal but big difference in hormones in performance enhancing.

 

[Kram]

Nandrolone is 19-nortestosterone and is an "estrane" (C18) steroid. It is on the pathway of T to estrogen. Not only is it aromatized more easily than T, but nandrolone itself has estrogenic properties at ER due to the C18 core. Nandrolone's "anabolic" effects are likely almost entirely anti-catabolic by blocking cortisol. It is also a progestin. So, you can achieve more safely the same (and likely better) effects by combining progesterone (an antiglucocorticoid progestin as a replacement of nandrolone) and some DHEA and T. Actually, you can probably get the same effects as nandrolone by using ONLY progesterone+DHEA and stay entirely in the OTC realm.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/structural-requirements-for-an-optimal-anti-catabolic-steroid.20108/

The only synthetic AAS I would ever consider using are the DHT derivatives drostanolone and maybe stenbolone. The former is one of the few AAS shown to have beneficial effects on the liver while nandrolone is considered problematic for liver even by bodybuilders.
Influence of nandrolone decanoate administration on serum lipids and liver enzymes in rats
The Anabolic Androgenic Steroid Nandrolone Decanoate Disrupts Redox Homeostasis in Liver, Heart and Kidney of Male Wistar Rats
[Experimental study of an antitumor preparation proloteston]. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Prolotestone [drostanolone] treatment in the dose of 14 mg once in two weeks produced a high antiblastogenic effect in rats with hormone-dependent cancer of the mammary gland induced by dimethylbenz(a)anthracene. It was shown in tests involving the use of a number of transplantable tumors that prolotestone potentiates the antitumor effect of sarcolysin and mitigates its untoward side-effects. It was shown in tests involving the use of a number of transplantable tumors that prolotestone potentiates the antitumor effect of sarcolysin and mitigates its untoward side-effects. The preparation is practically non-toxic, possesses a high anabolic index, has a beneficial effect on hepatic function and lowers the glucocorticoid function of the adrenals. It is thought that application of the drug should not be limited to the treatment of breast cancer."

@haidut
Do you think the safety profile and effects of methyldrostanolone are the same as drostanolone? I read that this just contains an extra methyl group to survive oral ingestion but my understanding of biochemistry is limited. Thank you.

 

[haidut]

@haidut
Do you think the safety profile and effects of methyldrostanolone are the same as drostanolone? I read that this just contains an extra methyl group to survive oral ingestion but my understanding of biochemistry is limited. Thank you.

Nope, the methylated version are hepatotoxic. I would not use methylated steroids. The non-methylated ones work quite well orally when taken with enough fat.

 

[Cameron]

Nope, the methylated version are hepatotoxic. I would not use methylated steroids. The non-methylated ones work quite well orally when taken with enough fat.

Can raw oral dht powder survive oral ingesting with sfa or maybe even without fat? Say in low doses 2-3 mgs to slightly increase dht blood and tissue levels.

 

[Cameron]

Nope, the methylated version are hepatotoxic. I would not use methylated steroids. The non-methylated ones work quite well orally when taken with enough fat.

10mgs a day with some fat can be very potent. I think per 1mg can be about 100ng/dl represented in blood values if absorbed well? This in regard to both test and dht.

 

[haidut]

Can raw oral dht powder survive oral ingesting with sfa or maybe even without fat? Say in low doses 2-3 mgs to slightly increase dht blood and tissue levels.

Yes, it can. The example I always give to people is that doctors have no problem telling patients that steroids like pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA are absorbed well orally. Yet, when it comes to T, DHT, etc somehow these rules do not apply? Nonsense! If we use the oral progesterone product Prometrium as comparison, taking orally steroids such as T, DHT, etc should have 15%-20% bioavailability. When taken with fat, and especially if dissolved in vitamin E, that bioavaiability rapidly rises and may approach 100%.

 

[olive]

Yes, it can. The example I always give to people is that doctors have no problem telling patients that steroids like pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA are absorbed well orally. Yet, when it comes to T, DHT, etc somehow these rules do not apply? Nonsense! If we use the oral progesterone product Prometrium as comparison, taking orally steroids such as T, DHT, etc should have 15%-20% bioavailability. When taken with fat, and especially if dissolved in vitamin E, that bioavaiability rapidly rises and may approach 100%.

It’s not really applicable because the liver rapes non-methylated oral steroids then whatever’s left gets raped again by SHBG. If oral testosterone was effective we’d know, people don’t just like injecting themselves for no reason.

I know what you’ll suggest next: “if oral doesn’t work, why not apply transdermally?”
They’ve tried that, doesn’t work. For example DHT orally has bioavailability of ~1%. Not good, so pharma companies tried DHT trandermally, absorption is ~10% so much better right? Well no, local 3a-HSD rapes it since albumin is not around to protect it.

Like I said, if there was a better way we’d know. Either take methylated oral steroids and harm the liver, alkylated steroids and harm the kidneys or just come to terms with injections.

 

[haidut]

It’s not really applicable because the liver rapes non-methylated oral steroids then whatever’s left gets raped again by SHBG. If oral testosterone was effective we’d know, people don’t just like injecting themselves for no reason.

I know what you’ll suggest next: “if oral doesn’t work, why not apply transdermally?”
They’ve tried that, doesn’t work. For example DHT orally has bioavailability of ~1%. Not good, so pharma companies tried DHT trandermally, absorption is ~10% so much better right? Well no, local 3a-HSD rapes it since albumin is not around to protect it.

Like I said, if there was a better way we’d know. Either take methylated oral steroids and harm the liver, alkylated steroids and harm the kidneys or just come to terms with injections.

Can you please explain why does the liver somehow destroy T and DHT but leaves pregnenolone, DHEA and progesterone alone?? You don't think I would have made such bold statement if there was no evidence for it, right? As you can see below, unesterified T was even more bioavailable than the undecanoate ester.
Bioavailability of oral testosterone in males. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Twenty-six male volunteers received a single oral dose of testosterone as free crystals or as the undecanoate ester. The latter was given either in crystalline form or in arachis oil. All preparations were tested three times in the same individual, whilst fasting on 2 days and on one day together with a breakfast rich in fat. Serum testosterone concentration was measured at intervals for up to 6--24 h after the dose. A significant and reproducible rise in serum testosterone level was found after ingestion of free testosterone. Testosterone esterified with undecylenic acid was only effective when administered in arachis oil. The meal increased the bioavailability of the ester, but had hardly any effect on that of the free hormone. It is concluded that bioavailability of oral testosterone can be improved by pharmaceutical means to an extent sufficient to produce adequate blood levels in substitution therapy."

 

[skycop00]

Can you please explain why does the liver somehow destroy T and DHT but leaves pregnenolone, DHEA and progesterone alone?? You don't think I would have made such bold statement if there was no evidence for it, right? As you can see below, unesterified T was even more bioavailable than the undecanoate ester.
Bioavailability of oral testosterone in males. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Twenty-six male volunteers received a single oral dose of testosterone as free crystals or as the undecanoate ester. The latter was given either in crystalline form or in arachis oil. All preparations were tested three times in the same individual, whilst fasting on 2 days and on one day together with a breakfast rich in fat. Serum testosterone concentration was measured at intervals for up to 6--24 h after the dose. A significant and reproducible rise in serum testosterone level was found after ingestion of free testosterone. Testosterone esterified with undecylenic acid was only effective when administered in arachis oil. The meal increased the bioavailability of the ester, but had hardly any effect on that of the free hormone. It is concluded that bioavailability of oral testosterone can be improved by pharmaceutical means to an extent sufficient to produce adequate blood levels in substitution therapy."

Transcrotal cream has really been a game changer for me. Simple BID dosing. I do add in pansterone and occassionally (3-4 months) HCG. No bloat, no acne etc etc

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Along with the prolactin-angle:

The Suppression Of Prolactin Is Required For The Treatment Of Advanced Prostate Cancer

Tell your urologist that testosterone is protective and prolactin causative... and behold

 

[Momado965]

Nandrolone is 19-nortestosterone and is an "estrane" (C18) steroid. It is on the pathway of T to estrogen. Not only is it aromatized more easily than T, but nandrolone itself has estrogenic properties at ER due to the C18 core. Nandrolone's "anabolic" effects are likely almost entirely anti-catabolic by blocking cortisol. It is also a progestin. So, you can achieve more safely the same (and likely better) effects by combining progesterone (an antiglucocorticoid progestin as a replacement of nandrolone) and some DHEA and T. Actually, you can probably get the same effects as nandrolone by using ONLY progesterone+DHEA and stay entirely in the OTC realm.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/structural-requirements-for-an-optimal-anti-catabolic-steroid.20108/

The only synthetic AAS I would ever consider using are the DHT derivatives drostanolone and maybe stenbolone. The former is one of the few AAS shown to have beneficial effects on the liver while nandrolone is considered problematic for liver even by bodybuilders.
Influence of nandrolone decanoate administration on serum lipids and liver enzymes in rats
The Anabolic Androgenic Steroid Nandrolone Decanoate Disrupts Redox Homeostasis in Liver, Heart and Kidney of Male Wistar Rats
[Experimental study of an antitumor preparation proloteston]. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Prolotestone [drostanolone] treatment in the dose of 14 mg once in two weeks produced a high antiblastogenic effect in rats with hormone-dependent cancer of the mammary gland induced by dimethylbenz(a)anthracene. It was shown in tests involving the use of a number of transplantable tumors that prolotestone potentiates the antitumor effect of sarcolysin and mitigates its untoward side-effects. It was shown in tests involving the use of a number of transplantable tumors that prolotestone potentiates the antitumor effect of sarcolysin and mitigates its untoward side-effects. The preparation is practically non-toxic, possesses a high anabolic index, has a beneficial effect on hepatic function and lowers the glucocorticoid function of the adrenals. It is thought that application of the drug should not be limited to the treatment of breast cancer."

A high anabolic index, meaning it is anabolic for organs +skeletal muscle mass or only organs?

 

[TheBeard]

10mgs a day with some fat can be very potent. I think per 1mg can be about 100ng/dl represented in blood values if absorbed well? This in regard to both test and dht.

Why wouldn’t you mix it in pure DMSO to get 99% bioavailability?

 

[TheBeard]

Like I said, if there was a better way we’d know.

Pure AAS powders in pure DMSO has 99% biovailability, applied to the scrotum it has 8x more penetration than abdominal skin.

So yes, we do have better ways, and total weekly volumes have absolutely no issue matching those achieved with injections.

 

[Cameron]

Ester based testosterone has many issues. Dose at one time 100-200 mgs in a shot 20 or more times the amount a body produces a day. aromatizing effects at the dose. Esters and roller coaster of blood levels . Toxic oil. Toxic additives oh and lastly is not bio identical. test e being closest with availability of 70% useable. If dhea can be absorbed and converted to necessary hormones testosterone from what I’ve seen would do very much the same. What mechanism is there to actually break down any oral hormone if enough is ingested. Even 2 mgs of dhea has been seen in blood levels of oral supplementing. Oral dosing may not be a one size fits all just like thyroid or anything else depending on current blood levels or metabolism. If shbg is high in someone of course they wouldn’t notice as much extra t as someone using more oral t with lower shbg

 

[haidut]

A high anabolic index, meaning it is anabolic for organs +skeletal muscle mass or only organs?

The anabolic index is typically used to refer to the anabolic/androgenic ratio and favors muscles more than anything else. However, androgenic steroid tend to have organ-anabolic effects as well and since drostanolone is a DHT isomer it may also have the kidney, heart, spleen, liver, etc benefits seen with DHT/androsterone.