Dark Roast Coffee Is Not Only Bad, It's Disrespectful

[Travis]

I vote for medium roast, on account of both taste and pharmacological considerations.

Caffeine: This is of of course the most well-known component of coffee yet is destroyed upon roasting, making light roast coffee the one having most caffeine per bean and per volume. However! because water is also lost during the roasting process, it is paradoxically the dark roast that has more caffeine per unit mass; dark roast also yields caffeine per dollar since coffee is most often sold by the pound.

Caffeine of course agonizes adenosine receptors, yet there's also indication that it inhibits phosphodiesterase directly. This latter enzyme is found on the cell membrane and is responsible for hydrolyzing cyclic-AMP into plain-Jane-AMP. Phosphodiesterase actively prevents us from achieving the bird-like metabolic rate, and caffeine inhibits this enzyme.

Caffeoyl quinide: Produced from coffee's chlorogenic acid—via dehydration proceeding intramolecular lactone—this molecule takes the shape of an opioid. This has been shown to block the μ-opioid receptor with an IC₅₀ on par with naloxone. This molecule is a genuine anti-opiate, and it's inhibition of intestinal μ-receptors best explains coffee's laxative effect. Although this is formed upon roasting, it peaks at mid-roast and then is destroyed upon subsequent roasting. Medium roast has the most caffeoyl quinide, and is also a compromise between having the most caffeine per volume and most per mass.

Caffeoyl quinide could be responsible from much of the dopiminergic activity of coffee, and what perhaps best explains why the caffeinated competitors green tea and Coca-Cola™ fail to perform—even at abuse doses.

 

[Dave Clark]

Forefront Health, Tom Brimeyer's site, who is Peat oriented, is selling a thyroid coffee, supposedly dark roast, organic, which has more vitamin E, B3, and glutathione. Frankly, dark roasts go through a higher heat, longer roasting schedule, so I can't understand how exposing something to that would increase these antioxidants. Peat also says to get magnesium from coffee......how much of these nutrients are really in coffee, hard to believe there would be much.

 

[danishispsychic]

The wisdom is real. Welcome to coffee snobbery - lol.

Hi Lisa... SAME. I need some recommendation for GOOD organic coffee that is not going to ruin my life. What coffee do you love?

 

[lollipop]

Hi Lisa... SAME. I need some recommendation for GOOD organic coffee that is not going to ruin my life. What coffee do you love?

From Longevity Warehouse - I use light roast - crazy good coffee - smooth, no bitterness, no big on ramp or rush, no let down, no off ramping. Just smooth, steady energy. If I miss a few days, NO withdrawals. Seriously impressed. When my friends come over they all ask: “Do you have that great coffee?” LoL. Here is a link:

Notice this is their original coffee. Later they introduced other kinds. This is the one that rocks!

https://www.longevitywarehouse.com/food-for-the-immortals-organic-longevity-coffee-light-roast-12-oz

 

[General Orange]

Hmm
Light Roast vs. Dark Roast Coffee: Which Packs More Health Perks?
This article cites new studies and showing that light coffee is better for you in protecting cells from oxadative damage which we want. Because light roast is exposed to less air aka meaning more benefits in each bean. Col

This study claims the opposite
Dark roast coffee is more effective than light roast coffee in reducing body weight, and in restoring red blood cell vitamin E and glutathione conc... - PubMed - NCBI
Recent results from prospective cohort studies have shown that moderate coffee consumption is associated with a reduced risk for diabetes mellitus type II or Alzheimer's disease. Since reactive oxygen species (ROS) are believed to be involved in the pathogenesis of these diseases, antioxidants in coffee might contribute to this risk reduction.
We aimed at elucidating whether a dark roast coffee beverage (CB) rich in N-methylpyridinium ions (NMP: 785 μmol/L) and low in chlorogenic acids (CGA: 523 μmol/L) has stronger antioxidant effects on human erythrocytes than a CB prepared from a light roast with opposite proportions (CGA: 4538 μmol/L; NMP: 56 μmol/L). Following a 2-wk wash out period, 500 mL of the respective CB was administered to 30 subjects daily for 4-wk. Blood and spot urine samples were collected at the beginning and at the end of each intervention.
Intake of the dark roast CB most effectively improved the antioxidant status of erythrocytes: superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase activity decreased by 5.8 and 15%, respectively, whereas tocopherol and total glutathione concentrations increased by 41 and 14%, respectively. Furthermore, administration of the NMP-rich CB led to a significant body weight reduction in pre-obese subjects, whereas the CGA-rich CB did not.

 

[lvysaur]

The only thing worse than dark roast, is light roast.

Medium roast is the only coffee that actually tastes like coffee

 

[Travis]

The only thing worse than dark roast, is light roast.

Medium roast is the only coffee that actually tastes like coffee

Homemade stovetop flash-roasted coffee—i.e. light on inside, yet charred on outside—actually somewhat approximates a medium roast after it's ground.

 

[danishispsychic]

From Longevity Warehouse - I use light roast - crazy good coffee - smooth, no bitterness, no big on ramp or rush, no let down, no off ramping. Just smooth, steady energy. If I miss a few days, NO withdrawals. Seriously impressed. When my friends come over they all ask: “Do you have that great coffee?” LoL. Here is a link:

Notice this is their original coffee. Later they introduced other kinds. This is the one that rocks!

https://www.longevitywarehouse.com/food-for-the-immortals-organic-longevity-coffee-light-roast-12-oz

Super duper thank you @lisaferraro ! you cracked the coffee code. xx

 

[Mito]

Caffeine: This is of of course the most well-known component of coffee yet is destroyed upon roasting, making light roast coffee the one having most caffeine per bean and per volume. However! because water is also lost during the roasting process, it is paradoxically the dark roast that has more caffeine per unit mass; dark roast also yields caffeine per dollar since coffee is most often sold by the pound.

Caffeine of course agonizes adenosine receptors, yet there's also indication that it inhibits phosphodiesterase directly. This latter enzyme is found on the cell membrane and is responsible for hydrolyzing cyclic-AMP into plain-Jane-AMP. Phosphodiesterase actively prevents us from achieving the bird-like metabolic rate, and caffeine inhibits this enzyme.

Caffeoyl quinide: Produced from coffee's chlorogenic acid—via dehydration proceeding intramolecular lactone—this molecule takes the shape of an opioid. This has been shown to block the μ-opioid receptor with an IC₅₀ on par with naloxone. This molecule is a genuine anti-opiate, and it's inhibition of intestinal μ-receptors best explains coffee's laxative effect. Although this is formed upon roasting, it peaks at mid-roast and then is destroyed upon subsequent roasting. Medium roast has the most caffeoyl quinide, and is also a compromise between having the most caffeine per volume and most per mass.

Caffeoyl quinide could be responsible from much of the dopiminergic activity of coffee, and what perhaps best explains why the caffeinated competitors green tea and Coca-Cola™ fail to perform—even at abuse doses.

Which one (caffeine or caffeoyl quinide) is most responsible for the mood enhancing effects of coffee? I had always assumed it was the caffeine.

 

[Travis]

Which one (caffeine or caffeoyl quinide) is most responsible for the mood enhancing effects of coffee? I had always assumed it was the caffeine.

Perhaps you can figure this out by drinking different roast levels? and different caffeinated drinks.

I think the the methylxanthines are a better candidates for psychological effects, and I don't think there's anything particularly 'mood lifting' about anti-opiates. However, studies have shown that naloxone does in fact displace opiates from the μ-receptor during in vitro radioimmunoassays and can also do this in vivo. Caffeoyl quinide could perhaps 'stir up' μ-opiates from peripheral binding sites, in some people, perhaps making them more available for the brain. So before opiates are depleted, they could actually be an increase in activity. Has anyone experienced that scenario where coffee had paradoxically made them tired?

 

[Nighteyes]

Perhaps you can figure this out by drinking different roast levels? and different caffeinated drinks.

I think the the methylxanthines are a better candidates for psychological effects, and I don't think there's anything particularly 'mood lifting' about anti-opiates. However, studies have shown that naloxone does in fact displace opiates from the μ-receptor during in vitro radioimmunoassays and can also do this in vivo. Caffeoyl quinide could perhaps 'stir up' μ-opiates from peripheral binding sites, in some people, perhaps making them more available for the brain. So before opiates are depleted, they could actually be an increase in activity. Has anyone experienced that scenario where coffee had paradoxically made them tired?

Ooooh yes indeed! I drink it every evening as it puts me straight to sleep. I always assumed it had to with adrenaline sensitivity/blood sugar. I am sensitive to adrenalin and often get nightmares. But not when I have my evening coffee

 

[Kartoffel]

Ooooh yes indeed! I drink it every evening as it puts me straight to sleep. I always assumed it had to with adrenaline sensitivity/blood sugar. I am sensitive to adrenalin and often get nightmares. But not when I have my evening coffee

The much simpler, and more logical, explanation would probably be that coffee helps the liver to regulate blood sugar. Many people sleep better and have fewer nightmares when they have a little snack before going to bed because they won't become hypoglycemic during the night. A moderate amount of coffee with a few calories will propbably support this process, so it's not at all paradoxical that coffee makes some people sleepy when they require sleep. I usually feel much more rested, and wake up pretty energized when I have coffee before bed.

 

[Nighteyes]

The much simpler, and more logical, explanation would probably be that coffee helps the liver to regulate blood sugar. Many people sleep better and have fewer nightmares when they have a little snack before going to bed because they won't become hypoglycemic during the night. A moderate amount of coffee with a few calories will propbably support this process, so it's not at all paradoxical that coffee makes some people sleepy when they require sleep. I usually feel much more rested, and wake up pretty energized when I have coffee before bed.

Well yes as I mentioned, blood sugar is probably involved.. the adrenalin part is something I remember gboluev/Helen talking about. How Caffeine desensitizes you to adrenalin which could be a benefit for some people. Adrenalin also kickes in if blood sugar is allowed to drop so I definitely Think you are right that liver/blood sugar/adrenalin are all tied together

 

[Travis]

The much simpler, and more logical, explanation would probably be that coffee helps the liver to regulate blood sugar.

No surprise there, you also seem to think that: (1) our brain's don't really need DHA, (2) specific antibodies can be raised against just about any protein antigen, and (3) blocking folate autoantibodies don't actually block folate uptake.

Höllt, V. "Comparison of in vivo and in vitro parameters of opiate receptor binding in naive and tolerant/dependent rodents." Life sciences (1975)

'The displacement of ³H-etorphine by naltrexone could also be shown by means of autoradiography . When 50 μCi/kq ³H-etorphine were injected in mice i .v ., considerable differences in the density of silver grains between various brain areas became obvious, e.g . a low labeling in the cerebellum and a rather high labeling in some nuclei of the adjoining brain stem . (The results of such mapping to be described elsewhere .) In mice, which received, besides the same dose of etorphine, 1000 μCi/kg cold naltrexone, the high labeling of some structures seemed to be reduced ; thus the differences between labeling of the brain stem and the cerebellum became less obvious than when etorphine was applied alone.' ―Höllt​

Antagonists of the μ-opioid receptor can displace agonists of like affinity, a very well-established fact, and caffeoyl quinide has potency on par with naloxone. This molecule then would seem capable of displacing dietary-derived exorphins—i.e. soymorphin and β-casomorphin—from the μ-opioid receptor, making them more available for brain uptake.

De Paulis, Tomas. "4-Caffeoyl-1, 5-quinide in roasted coffee inhibits [³H] naloxone binding and reverses anti-nociceptive effects of morphine in mice." Psychopharmacology (2004)​

I can't think of anything more logical than this, and certainly not that ill-defined and miasmic explanation that you threw-out there just to spite me. It is painfully obvious from other threads that you'll literally argue against just about anything I post, even incontrovertible facts, and have even sent me annoying private messages. Now Kartoffel, are you implying that some unstated component in coffee can lower blood sugar to the point of somnolence?

 

[Kartoffel]

No surprise there, you also seem to think that: (1) our brain's don't really need DHA, (2) specific antibodies can be raised against just about any protein antigen, and (3) blocking folate autoantibodies don't actually block folate uptake.

Höllt, V. "Comparison of in vivo and in vitro parameters of opiate receptor binding in naive and tolerant/dependent rodents." Life sciences (1975)

'The displacement of ³H-etorphine by naltrexone could also be shown by means of autoradiography . When 50 μCi/kq ³H-etorphine were injected in mice i .v ., considerable differences in the density of silver grains between various brain areas became obvious, e.g . a low labeling in the cerebellum and a rather high labeling in some nuclei of the adjoining brain stem . (The results of such mapping to be described elsewhere .) In mice, which received, besides the same dose of etorphine, 1000 μCi/kg cold naltrexone, the high labeling of some structures seemed to be reduced ; thus the differences between labeling of the brain stem and the cerebellum became less obvious than when etorphine was applied alone.' ―Höllt​

Antagonists of the μ-opioid receptor can displace agonists of like affinity, a very well-established fact, and caffeoyl quinide has potency on par with naloxone. This molecule then would seem capable of displacing dietary-derived exorphins—i.e. soymorphin and β-casomorphin—from the μ-opioid receptor, making them more available for brain uptake.

De Paulis, Tomas. "4-Caffeoyl-1, 5-quinide in roasted coffee inhibits [³H] naloxone binding and reverses anti-nociceptive effects of morphine in mice." Psychopharmacology (2004)​

I can't think of anything more logical than this, and certainly not that ill-defined and miasmic explanation that you threw-out there just to spite me. It is painfully obvious from other threads that you'll literally argue against just about anything I post, even incontrovertible facts, and have even sent me annoying private messages. Now Kartoffel, are you implying that some unstated component in coffee can lower blood sugar to the point of somnolence?

Very cool and fancy. Coffee's effect on blood sugar is still the much more likely explanation. The link between blood sugar and quality of sleep as well as coffee's effect on blood sugar are, as you say, "incontrovertible facts". No unstated component needed, unless you are a reductionist hipster. As for the other stuff - I'm not gonna respond to your delusional insinuations and insults anymore.

 

[Travis]

Very cool and fancy. Coffee's effect on blood sugar is still the much more likely explanation.

Do you have any experimental evidence to justify that statement?

No unstated component needed, unless you are a reductionist hipster.

You think chemistry is merely pointless 'reductionism,' no better than miasmic woospeak? It should then be no wonder why you think DHA is not necessary for the brain, as must assume analytical and animal-feeding studies proving this are merely 'reductionist hipster' games.

Now Kartoffel, can you explain using you're 'blood sugar hypothesis' why coffee is generally a stimulant yet can cause tiredness on occasion? You say this is a 'more likely explanation,' yet fail to elaborate or cite evidence. If this is so obvious and likely you should have no problem doing this.

 

[Kartoffel]

Do you have experimental evidence to justify that?

I would say at least as much a you have for your theory. I seem to have missed the paper demonstrating that dietary exorphins released from opioid receptors by coffee consumption travel to the brain and thereby cause tiredness.

No Kartoffel, can you explain through you're 'blood sugar hypothesis' why coffee is generally a stimulant yet can cause tiredness on occasion?

I hear a guy called Ray Peat has some pretty good articles on that, explaining why substances can be a stimulant in certain physiological states and have inhibitory effects in others.

 

[sladerunner69]

Strong source respect.

Indeed. Those heroes at huffpo know how to stick to the issues! I for one have simply had enough of these French/Italian Roast patriarchs thinking that just because their way has been around for 400 some odd years, it bears some kind of merit or standard....Well I say it STINKS!!

 

[Travis]

I would say at least as much a you have for your theory.

Well let's hear it. What do you suppose coffee does to blood sugar? and how is the liver involved? So far this appears to be just another Karoffel insinuation made simply to annoy me. You are: (1) an instigator, (2) you stalk me, and (3) you intentionally try to upset me to make me appear rude.

Now if you're are actually sincere, which I very much doubt, let us hear your explanation. I have cited experimental evidence that: (1) naloxone displaces opiates in vivo from the μ-receptor, (2) that caffeoyl quinide is as powerful as naloxone in μ-receptor affinity, and that (3) roasted coffee contains caffeoyl quinide. This mechanism is logical and biologically-plausible, yet you: spin your propeller cap, make woo noises, and frame this as absurd when it's certainly not.

 

[Kartoffel]

Well let's hear it. What do you suppose coffee does to blood sugar? and how is the liver involved? So far this appears to be just another Karoffel insinuation made simply to annoy me. You are: (1) an instigator, (2) you stalk me, and (3) you intentionally try to upset me to make me appear rude.

Now if you're are actually sincere, which I very much doubt, let us hear your explanation. I have cited experimental evidence that: (1) naloxone displaces opiates in vivo from the μ-receptor, (2) that caffeoyl quinide is as powerful as naloxone in μ-receptor affinity, and that (3) roasted coffee contains caffeoyl quinide. This mechanism is logical and biologically-plausible, yet you: spin your propeller cap, make woo noises, and frame this as absurd when it's certainly not.

It's not my problem that you get paranoid and think you are beeing stalked or insulted just because someone disagrees with you. I simply stated that another explanation is better and more logical, nothing more. The evidence that coffee/caffeine reduces hypoglycemia, and stimulates glycogen production of the liver is undeniable. I don't even get why you question this now as I am sure that you very well know and understand how coffee affects blood sugar.

"Our results suggest that caffeine is associated with a significant reduction in nocturnal hypoglycemia. The reduction in nocturnal hypoglycemia was not linked to the concomitant rise in parasympathetic activity associated with caffeine." (Richardson et al. 2005)

"Often, a woman who thinks that she has symptoms of hypoglycemia says that drinking even the smallest amount of coffee makes her anxious and shaky. Sometimes, I have suggested that they try drinking about two ounces of coffee with cream or milk along with a meal. It’s common for them to find that this reduces their symptoms of hypoglycemia, and allows them to be symptom-free between meals" (Ray)
​

That's why my proposal appears more likely. The evidence is clear and the biological mechanisms fairly well understood. You, on the other hand, propose a fairly complex set of independent processes and assume that they are all causally linked the way you think they are so that it all leads to the final result you are assuming (but cannot prove in any way). You said yourself that "Caffeoyl quinide could perhaps 'stir up' μ-opiates from peripheral binding sites, in some people, perhaps making them more available for the brain". But then you get hysterical again because someone dares to suggest that coffee's effect on blood sugar, and preventing nocturnal hypoglycemia, is probably the simpler explanation.