Danny Roddy Says Randle Cycle Exists Even In The Presence Of An Excess Of Saturated Fats

[sladerunner69]

@sladerunner69 from what I can recall (correct me if wrong) didn't you, like me, gorge on lots of dairy fat/ice cream? It seems (if that's true), we're starting to arrive at a point of commonality - That is, that dairy fat is virtually universally fattening. It definitely seems to me, that choices of food matter STRONGLY within a macronutrient.

Yes I got most of my calories from dairy fat and a little from meat. However, much earlier in my teens I was a discus thrower and attempted to put on a lot of weight through a more standard muscle building diet. So a lot of meat, granola, oats, and no particular restriction on the kinds of fat. I equally fat during that time, if not more so.

Therefore, I am still of the belief that in order to lose weight one should restrict fat consumption the most, particularly PUFA, and I don't see any evidence that meat fat is particularly better than dairy fat. In fact, consuming dairy seems to boost my temps and pulse more than anything.

 

[CLASH]

@sladerunner69
What type of meat? A diet of granola, meat and oats is vastly different than a diet of ruminant meat, seafood and fruit...

Dairy even without the fat can put on weight in certain people. Some people dont metabolize the casein protein well, especially the opiate peptides derived from casein and it can wreck thier hormonal profile. I’ve seen it with quite a few people.

I’d like to point out, that both you and @Cirion are overweight and keep trying to go low fat to lose weight... Perhaps low fat isnt the answer. Perhaps the foods your eating may be the issue. Perhaps fat may help you to lose weight. I’m not sure how much extra weight your carrying @sladerunner69 but an extra 100lbs of fat in @Cirion’s case is definetly major health risk. Both dairy and refined sugar are known to induce weight gain. Grains are know to induce weight gain. Frutarian diets and keto diets are known to produce weight loss. Paleo diets are known to produce weightloss. It isnt neccesarily the macros, its the food. I would put money on both of you losing weight by switching to a diet similar to the one I outlined, even if you didnt eat as much fat.

 

[sladerunner69]

@sladerunner69
What type of meat? A diet of granola, meat and oats is vastly different than a diet of ruminant meat, seafood and fruit...

Dairy even without the fat can put on weight in certain people. Some people dont metabolize the casein protein well, especially the opiate peptides derived from casein and it can wreck thier hormonal profile. I’ve seen it with quite a few people.

I’d like to point out, that both you and @Cirion are overweight and keep trying to go low fat to lose weight... Perhaps low fat isnt the answer. Perhaps the foods your eating may be the issue. Perhaps fat may help you to lose weight. I’m not sure how much extra weight your carrying @sladerunner69 but an extra 100lbs of fat in @Cirion’s case is definetly major health risk. Both dairy and refined sugar are known to induce weight gain. Grains are know to induce weight gain. Frutarian diets and keto diets are known to produce weight loss. Paleo diets are known to produce weightloss. It isnt neccesarily the macros, its the food. I would put money on both of you losing weight by switching to a diet similar to the one I outlined, even if you didnt eat as much fat.

It seems you've misunderstood my experiences, I had gained weight eating lots of fat peatishy. I was able to go from 230-210 only by eating less fat, and not restricting carbs or protein, and drinking plenty of nonfat milk.

I had also gained weight prior to ever hearing about peat, eating a mass-gaining diet with no concern to the amount of fat, but definitely ate far more PUFA than now. In order to lose from 210-180, I ate fewer calories and ran a few miles each day. I lost 30 lbs in a couple of months this way.

So Ive definitely lost weight on low fat diets, and gained weight on high fat diets, both post-peat and pre-peat. One thing I've seen on the forum too many times to count is someone saying they've adopted Peat's ideas, feel great, but have gained a significant amount of fat, ususally 15-25 lbs. I notice that the people who begin eating less fat, mostly dairy because that is the primary source of fat on this diet (this doesn't indicate to me that it is dairy fat specififcally that is the problem- any kind of fat is difficult to burn off immediately, especially in the presence of blood glucose.

 

[milkboi]

One thing I've seen I notice that the people who begin eating less fat, mostly dairy because that is the primary source of fat on this diet (this doesn't indicate to me that it is dairy fat specififcally that is the problem- any kind of fat is difficult to burn off immediately, especially in the presence of blood glucose.

100% agree. Although CO might be a bit less fatening due to the MCTs. But all in all, a high insulin + high or even moderate fat diet will make most people gain fat.

 

[CLASH]

@milkboi
False.

The low fat perspective on this forum is borderline religious. Its interesting to have a conversation with quite a few people on the forum who are overweight and continue to claim that fat is what makes people fat while they are on a low fat diet.

@sladerunner69
I understood your experiences. One diet was grains and meat and the next diet was high fat dairy with sugar. You gained weight on both. You can choose to believe that its all fat that makes you fat and its not specific to dairy but this isnt supported, this is purely your belief. I cant argue your beliefs, but I can tell you that research specifically shows multiple ways in which dairy, especially cow dairy and cow dairy fat can make people gain weight. It goes even beyond the fat component of dairy. You have the hormone component of milk which includes estrogens, progestogens and androgens. Skim milk is worse for estrogen, atleast according to research displayed by travis. Then you have the opiate effect of milk that lowers dopamine and allows prolactin to increase. Prolactin has anti-androgenic, anit-gonadal hormone production effect.
It is not fat that makes you fat, thats blatently false, just as much as its blatently false to say sugar makes you fat. There are nuances. People on this forum are conjuring unicorns and myths based on a little evidence to vilify fat when they clearly dont know what they are talking about and havent experimented with it themselves... The randle cycle is not the be all to end all, not even close. And peoples rudimentary understanding of the concept and desire to hinge on this specific concept so that they dont have to experience cognitive dissonance about thier current world view is exactly whats shooting them in the foot.

So i’ll state it again, i dont think a beef tallow and coconut oil diet, with ruminant meat, seafood and fruit/ certain vegetables will make you fat. I’m willing to put money on the fact that you will lose a significant amount weight within the first 3 weeks, even with macros at 40/40/20 f/c/p. The dietary options you stated above were not this, so until you try this, its pure speculation and conjecture as to whether or not this will make you fat. My money is that it wont.

As for a recap of what I am saying:

-Grains will make you fat.
-Starches, especially refined and fortified, can make you fat.
-Granulated sugar can make you gain fat.
-Dairy can make you gain fat.
-Vegetable oil can make you fat.
-nuts and seeds can make you fat.
-excess linoleic acid can make you fat


-Coconut oil wont make you fat
-beef tallow wont make you fat
-Most fruits wont make you fat
-most vegetables wont make you fat (goitrogenic varieties aside of course)
-Protein from animal sources including specific seafood and ruminants wont make you fat. Chicken, turkey and pork wont even make you fat

 

[YourUniverse]

The randle cycle is a good thing. In my estimation the fatty acids spare sugars in the blood stream so the blood sugar can stay elevated longer and can be saved for higher order uses like the central nervous system. The fats also slow but enhance digestion so you basically have a steady drip of sugar to the liver with the fatty acids thus keeping stress hormones at bay longer.

When you eat low fat your going to need to eat the ridiculous number of carbs that @Cirion discusses and you’ll probably need to eat them often to stop the blood sugar from dropping too much. This is unless of course your eating very high fiber or high starch. The fiber will induce fullness just based on the bulk and starch will induce fullness based on bacteria getting to ferment some of the starch and producing metabolic endproducts that effect hunger. Considering 300-400g of sugar a low amount of sugar is a bit ridiculous in any context besides the context of a very low fat diet.

If your unsure of what works, the only answer left is experimentation. Its the only way to know what works for you.

I will leave you guys with this. I’m 185-190lbs depending on time of the day eating 200g of fat, 300-400g of carbs and about 150g of protein. I’m lean.

*the date on my cronometer is dec 27 2016, the reason is because I made a one week template of food and rather than track everyday I just follow that one week template and make adjustments to it as I go. So that is the week I first used and have been refering to and adjusting ever since.

EDIT: i have been eating this way for over a year without weight gain, just for context. I work out 2x per week on average with weights, no cardio. I’ve never done cardio in my life. Although this last month I havent really exercised at all. I work and live on a night shift schedule 24/7 for the last year. I work 13 hour shifts 3 days a week in a hospital, one day on, one day off. My sleep schedule has been atrocious the past few months. One day i sleep 2-4 hours, then I work my 13 hour shift and I’m so tired after the shift i’ll sleep for 8 hours the next day, I only wake up because I set multiple alarms and put my phone across the room so I have to get it. I dont count calories. I eat as much as I want. I track macros to see what makes me feel the best so I can play with variables for experimentations sake. I also track food quanitity so I can manage my grocery bills lol... but I dont track anything for the sake of losing weight or cutting calories. Despite the night schedule, terrible sleep, stress at work, and complete lack of sunlight i still have a great libido and sex life and my hairloss has stopped. My only other symptom was some problems with the LLQ in my colon but as I’ve posted on other threads I had a strep overgrowth in my stool (based on testing) that I’m working on fixing now.

Do you work an active job? Are you on your feet a lot?

 

[CLASH]

@jamies33
I wouldnt say its really so active. Alot of standing, thats it. Not enough to burn off significant calories. I do workout on my days off but I never do any cardio or run. Its mostly lifting/ calisthenics/ handbalancing/ cable work with 2-3 minutes rest between each set. I’m never out of breath. I barely break a sweat. I workout for about an hour and do mobility and prep work the other hour.

 

[sladerunner69]

@milkboi
False.

The low fat perspective on this forum is borderline religious. Its interesting to have a conversation with quite a few people on the forum who are overweight and continue to claim that fat is what makes people fat while they are on a low fat diet.

@sladerunner69
I understood your experiences. One diet was grains and meat and the next diet was high fat dairy with sugar. You gained weight on both. You can choose to believe that its all fat that makes you fat and its not specific to dairy but this isnt supported, this is purely your belief. I cant argue your beliefs, but I can tell you that research specifically shows multiple ways in which dairy, especially cow dairy and cow dairy fat can make people gain weight. It goes even beyond the fat component of dairy. You have the hormone component of milk which includes estrogens, progestogens and androgens. Skim milk is worse for estrogen, atleast according to research displayed by travis. Then you have the opiate effect of milk that lowers dopamine and allows prolactin to increase. Prolactin has anti-androgenic, anit-gonadal hormone production effect.
It is not fat that makes you fat, thats blatently false, just as much as its blatently false to say sugar makes you fat. There are nuances. People on this forum are conjuring unicorns and myths based on a little evidence to vilify fat when they clearly dont know what they are talking about and havent experimented with it themselves... The randle cycle is not the be all to end all, not even close. And peoples rudimentary understanding of the concept and desire to hinge on this specific concept so that they dont have to experience cognitive dissonance about thier current world view is exactly whats shooting them in the foot.

So i’ll state it again, i dont think a beef tallow and coconut oil diet, with ruminant meat, seafood and fruit/ certain vegetables will make you fat. I’m willing to put money on the fact that you will lose a significant amount weight within the first 3 weeks, even with macros at 40/40/20 f/c/p. The dietary options you stated above were not this, so until you try this, its pure speculation and conjecture as to whether or not this will make you fat. My money is that it wont.

As for a recap of what I am saying:

-Grains will make you fat.
-Starches, especially refined and fortified, can make you fat.
-Granulated sugar can make you gain fat.
-Dairy can make you gain fat.
-Vegetable oil can make you fat.
-nuts and seeds can make you fat.
-excess linoleic acid can make you fat


-Coconut oil wont make you fat
-beef tallow wont make you fat
-Most fruits wont make you fat
-most vegetables wont make you fat (goitrogenic varieties aside of course)
-Protein from animal sources including specific seafood and ruminants wont make you fat. Chicken, turkey and pork wont even make you fat

Yes I see what you are saying. Saturated fats-dairy are what you recommend for weight loss, and avoid starches/refined sugars. Etc EtcPerhaps that's what works best for you. But I still think you are missing my central point. I am not currently eating low-fat, not really. I eat plenty of dairy and animal fats because it tastes so good. I believe if I didn't, I would be quite light. Also keep in mind that at 225lbs I am not fat, I am quite muscular and only 13% bodyfat. I would like to be more disciplined and get below 10%, though.

As an empiricist I have to believe in the inherent value of my personal experiences, as that is the only knowledge ultimately worth preserving. I have never gained weight faster than when I was bodybuilding and eating tons of meat, starches, and protein shakes. I put on 25 lbs in 10 weeks. And that is with a youthful metabolism, before I took finasteride which lowered my DHT and other heat-generating hormones. Peating, even while consuming over 1/2 gallon of milk per day, 2% milk at times, I gained 25 lbs in 2 years. That's a tremendous margin. And one must consider that I was consuming more calories/grams of fat while peating, eating copious amounts of refined sugar and dairy products, etc.

So I will keep drinking skim milk, and making milk pancakes, because doing so raises my metabolic temperature noticeably.

 

[yerrag]

but I can tell you that research specifically shows multiple ways in which dairy, especially cow dairy and cow dairy fat can make people gain weight. It goes even beyond the fat component of dairy. You have the hormone component of milk which includes estrogens, progestogens and androgens. Skim milk is worse for estrogen, atleast according to research displayed by travis. Then you have the opiate effect of milk that lowers dopamine and allows prolactin to increase. Prolactin has anti-androgenic, anit-gonadal hormone production effect.

CLASH - are you referring to all kinds of cow's milk? Even if it's organic, meaning not just labeled "Organic" but really organic where no external hormones are introduced to the cow? And what about goat's milk?

 

[CLASH]

@yerrag
Organic doesnt neccesarily have anything to do with the hormone content and opiate effect of dairy. Maybe the use of rBGH in non-organic may have an effect but theres hormones regardless of feed usage of pesticide/ GMO or not.

The opiate effect is present in all dairy, from multiple different animals, the question is how opiogenic is that particular milk. The opiate peptides are housed in the casein protein of the milk and released upon digestion.

The hormone content is dependent upon when the animal was milked in the pregnancy. Exogenous hormones can be a factor as can the breed of the animal. I wouldnt doubt that these hybridized cows we have that pump out 11 gallons of milk a day produce more hormones overall, but I havent read research on this specific aspect, just research on the hormone content of milk in general.

 

[YourUniverse]

The opiate compounds can be blocked by drinking coffee, though (Travis pointed this out)

 

[CLASH]

@jamies33
This is true.

 

[yerrag]

@jamies33
This is true.

I should go back to just using milk with coffee, but still there's the hormones. I suspect that I developed my love handles from drinking milk as a peaty practice.

 

[CLASH]

@yerrag
The purpose of milk is weight gain for mammals when thier young. Many people gain weight on milk. I was at 220lbs on milk, right not i’m 185lbs. Some people tolerate tho, but they seem to be the exceptions

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag
The purpose of milk is weight gain for mammals when thier young. Many people gain weight on milk. I was at 220lbs on milk, right not i’m 185lbs. Some people tolerate tho, but they seem to be the exceptions

So it won't matter where the milk comes from - goat, mare, mom?

 

[LiveWire]

@CLASH would you consider fresh cheeses such as cottage or quark, in their zero fat or close to zero fat forms, in the same weight gain inducing group as milk?

 

[CLASH]

@LiveWire
Depends on the person, gotta experiment.
The hormone content of milk is in the protein fraction as well as well as the fatty fraction.
The opiate peptide is entirely in the protein fraction.

 

[LiveWire]

How the hell can a person net 150 grams of protein without any dairy (milk/cheese/whey). This I don’t get. The amount of meat must be so large that it creates a whole different set of problems, not to mention the unpalatability of such daily meat amounts.

 

[CLASH]

I shoot for .6-.8g/lb of bodyweight for protein. I’m 185lbs so thats why its at 150g.

8oz of 93/7 ground beef
10oz shrimp

4 meals a day seperated by 4 hours (12 hour eating window)

Meal 1 @7: 4oz beef
Meal 2 @11: 4oz beef
Meal 3 @3: 5oz shrimp
Meal 4 @7: 5oz shrimp

Protein= about 130g
Count the rest of the food (fruit/ veg) and its probably closer to 140g. Add 2-3 oysters to a shrimp meal or 2oz of liver to the ground meat and your over 150g of protein a day. If you use collagen, add 1 scoop to each shrimp meal and your at 150g as well (ground meats amino acid profile is pretty good overall). You can substitue pretty much any protein you want, cod, mussels, turkey, chicken etc all between 3-5oz per meal and you’ll hit about 150g.

When I was younger and bodybuilding (i was 220lbs) i ate 200-250g of protein a day without using protein shakes. Add an extra meal and increase the oz of meat at each meal a little and its not that hard. Thats definetly way too much protein tho...

I use the app cronometer.

 

[key]

You're on a ray peat forum saying milk makes you fat lol the internet never changes