Danny Roddy Says Randle Cycle Exists Even In The Presence Of An Excess Of Saturated Fats

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119543 He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33.

But if we were to break that down into a 3k calorie diet, 1k each macro, 1000 kcal from cream or coconut seems like too much fat, unless you're active.

 

[Brian]

This is ketosis: 100+ days of just water for religious purposes, this woman was motivated!!! Look at how much of her adipose tissue was burned:

She documented nearly the whole thing. Amazing:

Goodness, she looks like death. Did she recover to a normal weight and calorie intake?

100 days is insane. The body may be able to survive, but that is scary that anyone would try that for whatever purpose. Totally unnecessary for adipose tissue loss. Why are you interested in fasting Westside? What benefits do you think you can get from fasting that you can't from a pro-metabolic low fat diet and lifestyle?

 

[haidut]

post 119621

post 119615 Aren't ketones produced from MCT's in the liver even without ketosis from fasting or glucose restriction?

On a smaller level, yes but muscles and the heart's myocardium burn fatty acids at rest normally. But this is not ketosis. Your urine keto test will be fully purple when in real ketosis, not a spoon or two of mct.

This is ketosis: 100+ days of just water for religious purposes, this woman was motivated!!! Look at how much of her adipose tissue was burned:

She documented nearly the whole thing. Amazing:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 35D7B5734E

I think she lost more than just fat. Look a her temples before/after. Here are skeletal muscles there and they are gone after her fast. I'd want to see the rest of her body but it looks like she also lost quite a bit of muscle as well.

 

[haidut]

post 119622

post 119543 He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33.

But if we were to break that down into a 3k calorie diet, 1k each macro, 1000 kcal from cream or coconut seems like too much fat, unless you're active.

I agree, and personally I feel best on about 20%. More tastes better but it does not seem to improve my metabolism.

 

[brandonk]

The problem with limiting to a lesser percentage is that you may not experience the benefits of ketones, which have been shown to occur at 80-120 grams per day (or about six tablespoons), which would be about 700 calories. Now if you consume 3500 calories a day, you can just barely make that work.

Georgi, you seem to be using caffeine to boost your body temperature, but caffeine is like thyroid in that it has a therapeutic window, and if you take too much you'll set off a Selye stress reaction that activates the desaturase enzymes -- which means you'll start producing unsaturated fat in your cardiolipin, even if you don't eat any! Not good!!!

The advantage of ketones is that, if you consume enough, they boost body temperature and metabolism at least as effectively as caffeine or thyroid, but there is no therapeutic window to worry about. In the fifty years or so of extensive studies of nutritional ketones, there's been no lethal overdose reported, as there has been with caffeine.

 

[haidut]

post 119653 The problem with limiting to a lesser percentage is that you may not experience the benefits of ketones, which have been shown to occur at 80-120 grams per day (or about six tablespoons), which would be about 700 calories. Now if you consume 3500 calories a day, you can just barely make that work.

Georgi, you seem to be using caffeine to boost your body temperature, but caffeine is like thyroid in that it has a therapeutic window, and if you take too much you'll set off a Selye stress reaction that activates the desaturase enzymes -- which means you'll start producing unsaturated fat in your cardiolipin, even if you don't eat any! Not good!!!

The advantage of ketones is that, if you consume enough, they boost body temperature and metabolism at least as effectively as caffeine or thyroid, but there is no therapeutic window to worry about. In the fifty years or so of extensive studies of nutritional ketones, there's been no lethal overdose reported, as there has been with caffeine.

Yeah, I would agree that saturated fat and ketones are safer than caffeine. Sometimes I do gorge on fat, if I feel the hunger for it. The 20% is probably average. For me, avoiding PUFA and limiting muscle meats and fish are the main rules. The rest is just eating good food and enjoying it.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Yeah, I would agree that saturated fat and ketones are safer than caffeine. Sometimes I do gorge on fat, if I feel the hunger for it. The 20% is probably average. For me, avoiding PUFA and limiting muscle meats and fish are the main rules. The rest is just eating good food and enjoying it.

When you say fish, I'm assuming fatty fish. Correct? I feel really good after a meal of white meat, low fat fish.

 

[haidut]

post 119664

Yeah, I would agree that saturated fat and ketones are safer than caffeine. Sometimes I do gorge on fat, if I feel the hunger for it. The 20% is probably average. For me, avoiding PUFA and limiting muscle meats and fish are the main rules. The rest is just eating good food and enjoying it.

When you say fish, I'm assuming fatty fish. Correct? I feel really good after a meal of white meat, low fat fish.

Yes, salmon, sardines, anchovies, stuff like that. Cod, and tropical fish are fine. Cod is mostly protein and tropical fish have saturated fat.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Fish is very high in arginine/methionine but the bigger issue is the contaminants, pcb's, mercury etc.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119624 Goodness, she looks like death. Did she recover to a normal weight and calorie intake?

Yea it's on her channel.

100 days is insane. The body may be able to survive, but that is scary that anyone would try that for whatever purpose. Totally unnecessary for adipose tissue loss. Why are you interested in fasting Westside? What benefits do you think you can get from fasting that you can't from a pro-metabolic low fat diet and lifestyle?

It has benefits that you can't achieve with just diet and lifestyle. It's a special state you have to put yourself in. I'm interested in it for anti-cancer/immune system strategies, and energy production. See here:



It's important to note that PF (periodic, which means 2 days or more, real ketosis) is where the real benefits come in as opposed to if IF (intermittent, 24hrs or less):

"In the treatment of cancer, fasting has been shown to have more consistent and positive effects. PF for 2–3 days was shown to protect mice from a variety of chemotherapy drugs, an effect called differential stress resistance (DSR) to reflect the inability of cancer cells to become protected because oncogenes nega- tively regulate stress resistance, and prevent cancer cells from becoming protected"

"PF can reverse multiple features of the MS in humans: it enhances insulin sensitivity, stimulates lipolysis, and reduces blood pressure."

"Based on the existing evidence from animal and human studies described, we conclude that there is great potential for lifestyles that incorporate IF or PF during adult life to promote optimal health and reduce the risk of many chronic diseases, particularly for those who are overweight and sedentary. Animal studies have documented robust and replicable effects of fasting on health indicators including greater insulin sensitivity and reduced levels of blood pressure, body fat, IGF-I, insulin, glucose, athero- genic lipids, and inflammation. Fasting regimens can ameliorate disease processes and improve functional outcome in animal models of disorders that include cancer, myocardial infarction, diabetes, stroke, AD, and PD. One general mechanism of action of fasting is that it triggers adaptive cellular stress responses, which result in an enhanced ability to cope with more severe stress and counteract disease processes. In addition, by pro- tecting cells from DNA damage, suppressing cell growth, and enhancing apoptosis of damaged cells, fasting could retard and/or prevent the formation and growth of cancers."'

True North in Santa Rosa is the only place in the US that has medical staff supervision on location. That is the best way to do it. They monitor you.

post 119627 I think she lost more than just fat. Look a her temples before/after. Here are skeletal muscles there and they are gone after her fast. I'd want to see the rest of her body but it looks like she also lost quite a bit of muscle as well.

Yea she did lose some protein. That is to be expected when WF for that long. The interesting thing about that though is that it seems to be mostly muscles and not organ protein. And she did fully recover.

 

[tomisonbottom]

post 119670

It has benefits that you can't achieve with just diet and lifestyle. It's a special state you have to put yourself in. I'm interested in it for anti-cancer/immune system strategies, and energy production.

So, if you lose a lot of fat by water fasting, that could probably speed up the whole "4 years to get rid of all pufa" waiting period, correct?
Would that be part of the reason for the benefits?

 

[tomisonbottom]

The problem with (unhydrogenated) coconut oil is that it is about 2-3% PUFAs.

I didn't realize there was such a thing. Then I just looked at the coconut oil I bought and it says "non-hydrogenated coconut oil" for the ingredient. Does that mean they took some of the saturated fat out of it?
It still says zero poly-unsaturated fat content for each 1 tablespoon serving though.
I tried googling info on this and couldn't find anyone who seemed to know what they were talking about.

 

[Dan W]

post 119680 Then I just looked at the coconut oil I bought and it says "non-hydrogenated coconut oil" for the ingredient. Does that mean they took some of the saturated fat out of it?

It's not that they took the saturated fat out: coconut oil that hasn't been hydrogenated has some naturally-occurring mono and polyunsaturated fat. The hydrogenation process takes those fats and makes them saturated.

post 119680 It still says zero poly-unsaturated fat content for each 1 tablespoon serving though.

I think they're allowed to "round down" to 0 on the label for any values under 0.5g. There's probably about 0.2g.

 

[DaveFoster]

Ray never claimed otherwise.
But as i understand, he made the point that saturated fats don't trigger the liberation of more stored fatty acids, contrary to PUFAS.
In one case, the inflammation (eventually) comes to an end, while in the other, it keeps perpetuating itself due to the nature of the liberated fatty acids.

This. He also advises the consumption of coconut oil for the metabolic benefits of the MCT's, including the ability of lauric acid to uncouple mitochondria in the liver; the benefits of saturated fat with regard to digestion and assimilation of nutrients; and also the fact that adding saturated fats usually improve the flavor of foods while simultaneously adding to the caloric density.

 

[haidut]

post 119596

post 119575

Where did you see that I ascribe views to Roddy and Peat? What I said are direct quotes from Peat on different occasions.
...

Brandon,

I disagree. I don't ascribe anything to Roddy, and the stuff I mention from Peat is quotes from himself. See below:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... bly#p76445
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... 9&start=20

So, in the past Ray has said different things probably depending on context. I am pretty sure that he said for people trying to lose weight fat intake should be low, and he even said about 10% in one interview. I can find those quotes, but I am sure you can do that as well.
Second, the Randle cycle IS a problem, even with saturated fat but of course to a much lower degree than with PUFA. Fatty acid oxidation reduces glycogen synthesis and directly antagonizes insulin "receptors"/signalling. I don't know what degree of fatty acid oxidation is optimal, but if metabolism is in favor of fatty acid oxidation then it IS a problem. Again, as Ray said, at rest muscles burn mostly fat but in exertion you better not be burning fat or it will make you insulin resistant. See below for more info. The first thread had a quote from Peat you provided saying that fatty acids inhibit glucose oxidation. ANY fatty acids, by PUFA does it best. The last thread is a human study.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=8157&p=113726&hilit=randle+cycle#p113726
viewtopic.php?t=7991
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49&p=78
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6233&p=74200
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/ ... 2.full.pdf

Finally, you are dead wrong on peanut oil. The studies you posted show that fully hydrogenated peanut oil has beneficial effect, not just any peanut oil. Do you know what full hydrogenation of unsaturated fat does? It saturates it.

No, there are no such quotes from Ray Peat specifically about saturated fat or ketones. The issue he has repeatedly stated or suggested is only with finding food sources of fat that do not contain any PUFAs.

In his interview that I posted above, I feel he says what he needs to say about saturated fat. I will try to give my understanding of what he is saying, but this is me talking:

The Selye stress response blocks or inactivates oxidation of glucose. However, saturated fat blocks the Selye stress response, thereby reactivating oxidation of glucose.

That's about a simple as I can make it. It's OK if you disagree and have read pubmed studies and such! It's great that you are thinking about this on your own!

I think it's unfair to Ray Peat's body of work to characterize it as recommending somehow a low saturated fat or low ketone diet. He's never done that.

I haven't had a chance to read the study about peanut oil, and just posted what Ray emailed so you (or others) would have it. I'm glad it's hydrogenated, that makes more sense.

Not meant to stir the argument once again, but I did find Peat's quote on saturated fat:
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/1 ... -response/
"...“I’ve known people who were eating 2-3 pounds of meat a day and who were getting sicker and sicker as their free fatty acids and free amino acids increased. That started me reading more about the free state of fatty acids in the blood. Just about everything that goes wrong, involves free fatty acids increase. If they’re totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose, and turning on various stress-related things (by lowering the carbon dioxide production, I think, is the main mechanism).”

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119679 So, if you lose a lot of fat by water fasting, that could probably speed up the whole "4 years to get rid of all pufa" waiting period, correct?
Would that be part of the reason for the benefits?

viewtopic.php?f=144&t=7414

 

[tara]

This is ketosis: 100+ days of just water for religious purposes, this woman was motivated!!! Look at how much of her adipose tissue was burned:

If she recovered fairly quickly, I'm pleased. Usually the only people who can be motivated to starve themselves that far are people operating in anorexic mode, which is severely life-threatening.

 

[DaveFoster]

On a smaller level, yes but muscles and the heart's myocardium burn fatty acids at rest normally. But this is not ketosis. Your urine keto test will be fully purple when in real ketosis, not a spoon or two of mct.

This is ketosis: 100+ days of just water for religious purposes, this woman was motivated!!! Look at how much of her adipose tissue was burned:

She documented nearly the whole thing. Amazing:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 35D7B5734E

Ketogenic fasting: How to turn from an overweight woman into an anorexic man.

 

[halken]

If she recovered fairly quickly, I'm pleased. Usually the only people who can be motivated to starve themselves that far are people operating in anorexic mode, which is severely life-threatening.

 

[michael94]

Westside pufas, I dont really agree with your ideas on fat as the enemy especially in a context of high pufa in storage ( most people ) but I agree that force feeding is something people new to Peat's ideas do too often. They ignore a lack of hunger and the water retention they experience because they think a gallon of 1% and a few quarts of OJ is ideal nutrition in all circumstances. Water retention is a sign of metabolic distress...not "adapting to carbs". Use your instincts folks because that has helped me the most.