Danny Roddy Says Randle Cycle Exists Even In The Presence Of An Excess Of Saturated Fats

[ecstatichamster]

post 119543

post 115182 Worrying about fats and carbs competeing in the Randal Cycle is probably not warranted. Eventually they will both be used. Seems you should probably just eat meals that taste good. Sometimes that may be more carbs, sometimes more fat. The body seems perfectly designed to utilize both fuel sources.

As far as what constitutes enough fat; Well Fat makes food taste good, helps achieve sufficient calories, and helps keep blood sugar up longer without having to constantly eat. Not actively avoiding fat also allows you to eat a larger variety of food, which is probably beneficial.
Phisologically, it seems there is no real minimum for fat intake. However, in real life, fat probably becomes "too low" when it leads to loss of appetite and/or insufficient calorie intake from lack of food enjoyment. I'm sure you could counteract this by consciously over feeding on carbs. In fact that seems to be the approach pushed by some of the more "successful" 80/10/10 folks. However eating tons of bananas, dates, and rice just sounds miserable to me, as does eating any single food in large quantities.

Ray kind of agrees with that approach, but for healthy people. He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33. He has recommended low fat to people trying to lose weight and boost metabolism. Also, in people with diabetes or insulin resistance you probably want to avoid fat oxidation as much as possible since it contributes to the pathology.

33/33/33 meaning what, percentages by kCal, not sure what percentages. If by kCal, this is pretty high protein, is it not?

 

[haidut]

post 119550

post 119543

post 115182 Worrying about fats and carbs competeing in the Randal Cycle is probably not warranted. Eventually they will both be used. Seems you should probably just eat meals that taste good. Sometimes that may be more carbs, sometimes more fat. The body seems perfectly designed to utilize both fuel sources.

As far as what constitutes enough fat; Well Fat makes food taste good, helps achieve sufficient calories, and helps keep blood sugar up longer without having to constantly eat. Not actively avoiding fat also allows you to eat a larger variety of food, which is probably beneficial.
Phisologically, it seems there is no real minimum for fat intake. However, in real life, fat probably becomes "too low" when it leads to loss of appetite and/or insufficient calorie intake from lack of food enjoyment. I'm sure you could counteract this by consciously over feeding on carbs. In fact that seems to be the approach pushed by some of the more "successful" 80/10/10 folks. However eating tons of bananas, dates, and rice just sounds miserable to me, as does eating any single food in large quantities.

Ray kind of agrees with that approach, but for healthy people. He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33. He has recommended low fat to people trying to lose weight and boost metabolism. Also, in people with diabetes or insulin resistance you probably want to avoid fat oxidation as much as possible since it contributes to the pathology.

33/33/33 meaning what, percentages by kCal, not sure what percentages. If by kCal, this is pretty high protein, is it not?

Yes, by kCal. On a 2,000 kCal diet this is about 165g of protein, so not that high. High protein diets begin at 40% but I guess it depends on whom you ask. Bottom line is that it would also be 165g of sugar and Ray has said that healthy people need about equal amounts of sugar and protein to avoid the hypoglycemic response induced by protein. Hypothyroid people need at least twice as much sugar as protein and sometimes as much as 4 times more.

 

[superhuman]

Ray also said that he is eating less fat these days because there tend to be alot of PUFA in almost any source now because of the bad food supply.
Ray has also said that 150g protein is enough for most high level athletes so protein in a 80-150 range will be enough for 99% of people. The rest should be/focus on sugar

 

[brandonk]

post 119550

post 119543

post 115182 Worrying about fats and carbs competeing in the Randal Cycle is probably not warranted. Eventually they will both be used. Seems you should probably just eat meals that taste good. Sometimes that may be more carbs, sometimes more fat. The body seems perfectly designed to utilize both fuel sources.

As far as what constitutes enough fat; Well Fat makes food taste good, helps achieve sufficient calories, and helps keep blood sugar up longer without having to constantly eat. Not actively avoiding fat also allows you to eat a larger variety of food, which is probably beneficial.
Phisologically, it seems there is no real minimum for fat intake. However, in real life, fat probably becomes "too low" when it leads to loss of appetite and/or insufficient calorie intake from lack of food enjoyment. I'm sure you could counteract this by consciously over feeding on carbs. In fact that seems to be the approach pushed by some of the more "successful" 80/10/10 folks. However eating tons of bananas, dates, and rice just sounds miserable to me, as does eating any single food in large quantities.

Ray kind of agrees with that approach, but for healthy people. He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33. He has recommended low fat to people trying to lose weight and boost metabolism. Also, in people with diabetes or insulin resistance you probably want to avoid fat oxidation as much as possible since it contributes to the pathology.

33/33/33 meaning what, percentages by kCal, not sure what percentages. If by kCal, this is pretty high protein, is it not?

Yes, by kCal. On a 2,000 kCal diet this is about 165g of protein, so not that high. High protein diets begin at 40% but I guess it depends on whom you ask. Bottom line is that it would also be 165g of sugar and Ray has said that healthy people need about equal amounts of sugar and protein to avoid the hypoglycemic response induced by protein. Hypothyroid people need at least twice as much sugar as protein and sometimes as much as 4 times more.

Please don't ascribe views to Danny Roddy or Ray Peat? Danny does not "recommend" a low-fat or worse yet non-fat diet, and neither does Ray Peat. If you ask them an either-or question, it may be the lesser of two evils, but it certainly is not ideal or optimal.

In fact, when asked specifically about the podcast episode on low-fat diets, Danny Roddy told someone:

I don't think everyone should be on a low-fat diet. What I find to be egregious is the low-carb mentality (e.g., 'earn your carbs', 'don't burn too much glucose', 'what's carbon dioxide?'), which I felt like were discussing on that episode.

And Ray Peat also answered, as I already posted above:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... e4#p118933

JR: Should, yes or no, a person live on a fat-free diet ( because the body would be working more efficiently) ? Or should people simply increase their saturated fats intake ?

RP: Yeah (the latter), largely because of the effect on the taste system, and the intestine reflexes; it helps to handle the other foods efficiently, and to make the whole body recognize that it's being fed properly. So it's part of the reflex nervous system that guides eating. And it helps to satisfy the appetite, so people feel more satisfied when they had fats, especially saturated fats.

Speaking only for myself now, there seems to be a miconception that the Randle competition is a bad thing. Quite the contrary, it is a perfectly healthy thing that allows ketones and saturated fat to be used efficiently, such as in the resting state of certain tissues, in order to spare glucose for the tissues and times where it is truly needed. Animals are very good at storing lots of fat, but not so good at storing glucose. That's why running out of fructose is one of the worst Selye "stress" reactions you can have. Fructose is your best backup for keeping blood sugar high inside the cell,* and it may be that lack of available blood sugar inside the cell is the only "necessary" condition for Selye "stress"!

The problem arises only when you eat PUFAs, or when PUFAs are released by stress from overly unsaturated fatty tissue, and there is a lack of saturated fat in the blood to counteract PUFAs, leaving PUFAs as free fatty acids to be oxidized! Very bad!! PUFAs as free fatty acids is something the body would never have encountered in millions of years, until very recently when toxic PUFAs began to vitiate the industrial food supply.

Georgi, we just posted above (at your suggestion) Ray's links to studies that show that even eating peanuts, of all things, can restore the crucial cardiolipin (arguably because of their high phosphatidyl choline content), and peanuts are highly unsaturated!

So please, everyone, it's fine if you think that a non-saturated or low-saturated, or worse yet low ketone diet is healthy (and if you do, I must strongly disagree), but please don't claim that Ray Peat says this, or even that Danny Roddy does. Quite the opposite: Ray Peat was one of the very first to understand, at least by 1993 (Nutrition for Women), how important saturated fat and ketones are, back when doctors were fooled into believing that polyunsaturated fat was a miracle health food!

*NB: I say "inside the cell", because saturated fat and ketones, like fructose, potassium and insulin, let sugar be drawn inside the cell, which is what matters. High sugar in the blood (aka high blood sugar) could be a sign of failure to draw sugar into the cell (aka diabetes or insulin resistance), as a result of too little saturated fat, ketones, fructose, potassium or insulin reponse.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119575 So please, everyone, it's fine if you think that a non-saturated or low-saturated, or worse yet low ketone diet is healthy (and if you do, I must strongly disagree), but please don't claim that Ray Peat says this, or even that Danny Roddy does. Quite the opposite: Ray Peat was one of the very first to understand, at least by 1993 (Nutrition for Women), how important saturated fat and ketones are, back when doctors were fooled into believing that polyunsaturated fat was a miracle health food!

Low fat quotes:

"I’ve mentioned at times I’ve averaged over the years probably a gallon of milk a day but that’s always been 1% milk because even at 2 quarts of milk, a person doesn’t want to have whole milk at 3 or 4% fat." - RP

Josh Rubin then says: "What’s interesting is when you say those things, I don’t think you realize the repercussions. You have all these people walking around trying to drink gallons of milk but they’re drinking whole milk and their like “Why am I gaining so much weight…(Peat and Josh laughing) listen here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7204&p=89863#p89863

"For people who aren't very active, low fat milk and cheese are better, because the extra fat calories aren't needed." - RP

"The fats in meat and cheese can be minimized by choosing low fat types, and skimmed or 1% milk can be used." - RP

"but the first thing should be to make sure her calcium to phosphorus ratio is good, by having two quarts of low fat milk per day, or the equivalent in low fat cheese, with no grains, legumes, nuts, or muscle meats, and with some well cooked greens regularly." - RP

"For people who don't do hard physical labor, low-fat milk is appropriate." - RP

“I have heard from several people that they think I recommend drinking whole milk, which I don't, because the amount of fat in whole milk is very likely to be fattening when a person is using it to get the needed protein and calcium. When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories.” - RP

 

[haidut]

post 119575 Danny

Where did you see that I ascribe views to Roddy and Peat? What I said are direct quotes from Peat on different occasions.

post 119575

post 119550

post 119543

post 115182 Worrying about fats and carbs competeing in the Randal Cycle is probably not warranted. Eventually they will both be used. Seems you should probably just eat meals that taste good. Sometimes that may be more carbs, sometimes more fat. The body seems perfectly designed to utilize both fuel sources.

As far as what constitutes enough fat; Well Fat makes food taste good, helps achieve sufficient calories, and helps keep blood sugar up longer without having to constantly eat. Not actively avoiding fat also allows you to eat a larger variety of food, which is probably beneficial.
Phisologically, it seems there is no real minimum for fat intake. However, in real life, fat probably becomes "too low" when it leads to loss of appetite and/or insufficient calorie intake from lack of food enjoyment. I'm sure you could counteract this by consciously over feeding on carbs. In fact that seems to be the approach pushed by some of the more "successful" 80/10/10 folks. However eating tons of bananas, dates, and rice just sounds miserable to me, as does eating any single food in large quantities.

Ray kind of agrees with that approach, but for healthy people. He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33. He has recommended low fat to people trying to lose weight and boost metabolism. Also, in people with diabetes or insulin resistance you probably want to avoid fat oxidation as much as possible since it contributes to the pathology.

33/33/33 meaning what, percentages by kCal, not sure what percentages. If by kCal, this is pretty high protein, is it not?

Yes, by kCal. On a 2,000 kCal diet this is about 165g of protein, so not that high. High protein diets begin at 40% but I guess it depends on whom you ask. Bottom line is that it would also be 165g of sugar and Ray has said that healthy people need about equal amounts of sugar and protein to avoid the hypoglycemic response induced by protein. Hypothyroid people need at least twice as much sugar as protein and sometimes as much as 4 times more.

Please don't ascribe views to Danny Roddy or Ray Peat? Danny does not "recommend" a low-fat or worse yet non-fat diet, and neither does Ray Peat. If you ask them an either-or question, it may be the lesser of two evils, but it certainly is not ideal or optimal.

In fact, when asked specifically about the podcast episode on low-fat diets, Danny Roddy told someone:

I don't think everyone should be on a low-fat diet. What I find to be egregious is the low-carb mentality (e.g., 'earn your carbs', 'don't burn too much glucose', 'what's carbon dioxide?'), which I felt like were discussing on that episode.

And Ray Peat also answered, as I already posted above:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... e4#p118933

JR: Should, yes or no, a person live on a fat-free diet ( because the body would be working more efficiently) ? Or should people simply increase their saturated fats intake ?

RP: Yeah (the latter), largely because of the effect on the taste system, and the intestine reflexes; it helps to handle the other foods efficiently, and to make the whole body recognize that it's being fed properly. So it's part of the reflex nervous system that guides eating. And it helps to satisfy the appetite, so people feel more satisfied when they had fats, especially saturated fats.

Speaking only for myself now, there seems to be a miconception that the Randle competition is a bad thing. Quite the contrary, it is a perfectly healthy thing that allows ketones and saturated fat to be used efficiently, such as in the resting state of certain tissues, in order to spare glucose for the tissues and times where it is truly needed. Animals are very good at storing lots of fat, but not so good at storing glucose. That's why running out of fructose is one of the worst Selye "stress" reactions you can have. Fructose is your best backup for keeping blood sugar high inside the cell,* and it may be that lack of available blood sugar inside the cell is the only "necessary" condition for Selye "stress"!

The problem arises only when you eat PUFAs, or when PUFAs are released by stress from overly unsaturated fatty tissue, and there is a lack of saturated fat in the blood to counteract PUFAs, leaving PUFAs as free fatty acids to be oxidized! Very bad!! PUFAs as free fatty acids is something the body would never have encountered in millions of years, until very recently when toxic PUFAs began to vitiate the industrial food supply.

Georgi, we just posted above (at your suggestion) Ray's links to studies that show that even eating peanuts, of all things, can restore the crucial cardiolipin (arguably because of their high phosphatidyl choline content), and peanuts are highly unsaturated!

So please, everyone, it's fine if you think that a non-saturated or low-saturated, or worse yet low ketone diet is healthy (and if you do, I must strongly disagree), but please don't claim that Ray Peat says this, or even that Danny Roddy does. Quite the opposite: Ray Peat was one of the very first to understand, at least by 1993 (Nutrition for Women), how important saturated fat and ketones are, back when doctors were fooled into believing that polyunsaturated fat was a miracle health food!

*NB: I say "inside the cell", because saturated fat and ketones, like potassium and insulin, let sugar be drawn inside the cell, which is what matters. High sugar in the blood (aka high blood sugar) could be a sign of failure to draw sugar into the cell (aka diabetes or insulin resistance), as a result of too little saturated fat, ketones, potassium or insulin reponse.

Brandon,

I disagree. I don't ascribe anything to Roddy, and the stuff I mention from Peat is quotes from himself. See below:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... bly#p76445
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... 9&start=20

So, in the past Ray has said different things probably depending on context. I am pretty sure that he said for people trying to lose weight fat intake should be low, and he even said about 10% in one interview. I can find those quotes, but I am sure you can do that as well.
Second, the Randle cycle IS a problem, even with saturated fat but of course to a much lower degree than with PUFA. Fatty acid oxidation reduces glycogen synthesis and directly antagonizes insulin "receptors"/signalling. I don't know what degree of fatty acid oxidation is optimal, but if metabolism is in favor of fatty acid oxidation then it IS a problem. Again, as Ray said, at rest muscles burn mostly fat but in exertion you better not be burning fat or it will make you insulin resistant. See below for more info. The first thread had a quote from Peat you provided saying that fatty acids inhibit glucose oxidation. ANY fatty acids, by PUFA does it best. The last thread is a human study.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=8157&p=113726&hilit=randle+cycle#p113726
viewtopic.php?t=7991
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49&p=78
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6233&p=74200
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/ ... 2.full.pdf

Finally, you are dead wrong on peanut oil. The studies you posted show that fully hydrogenated peanut oil has beneficial effect, not just any peanut oil. Do you know what full hydrogenation of unsaturated fat does? It saturates it.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119575 Ray Peat was one of the very first to understand, at least by 1993 (Nutrition for Women)

And if you want to quote "Nutrition for Women" how about using these from the book as well:

pages 84 and 90:

Soaked-grain cereal/bread, tuna, chicken breast, oat bran, potato, spinach, brocoili...and salad!!!??? Salad...oh noes!!! Your dreams are shattered!!! #serotoninsalad

 

[haidut]

post 119584 When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Thanks for other quotes as well!

 

[brandonk]

post 119575

Where did you see that I ascribe views to Roddy and Peat? What I said are direct quotes from Peat on different occasions.
...

Brandon,

I disagree. I don't ascribe anything to Roddy, and the stuff I mention from Peat is quotes from himself. See below:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... bly#p76445
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... 9&start=20

So, in the past Ray has said different things probably depending on context. I am pretty sure that he said for people trying to lose weight fat intake should be low, and he even said about 10% in one interview. I can find those quotes, but I am sure you can do that as well.
Second, the Randle cycle IS a problem, even with saturated fat but of course to a much lower degree than with PUFA. Fatty acid oxidation reduces glycogen synthesis and directly antagonizes insulin "receptors"/signalling. I don't know what degree of fatty acid oxidation is optimal, but if metabolism is in favor of fatty acid oxidation then it IS a problem. Again, as Ray said, at rest muscles burn mostly fat but in exertion you better not be burning fat or it will make you insulin resistant. See below for more info. The first thread had a quote from Peat you provided saying that fatty acids inhibit glucose oxidation. ANY fatty acids, by PUFA does it best. The last thread is a human study.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=8157&p=113726&hilit=randle+cycle#p113726
viewtopic.php?t=7991
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49&p=78
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6233&p=74200
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/ ... 2.full.pdf

Finally, you are dead wrong on peanut oil. The studies you posted show that fully hydrogenated peanut oil has beneficial effect, not just any peanut oil. Do you know what full hydrogenation of unsaturated fat does? It saturates it.

No, there are no such quotes from Ray Peat specifically about saturated fat or ketones. The issue he has repeatedly stated or suggested is only with finding food sources of fat that do not contain any PUFAs.

In his interview that I posted above, I feel he says what he needs to say about saturated fat. I will try to give my understanding of what he is saying, but this is me talking:

The Selye stress response blocks or inactivates oxidation of glucose. However, saturated fat blocks the Selye stress response, thereby reactivating oxidation of glucose.

That's about a simple as I can make it. It's OK if you disagree and have read pubmed studies and such! It's great that you are thinking about this on your own!

I think it's unfair to Ray Peat's body of work to characterize it as recommending somehow a low saturated fat or low ketone diet. He's never done that.

I haven't had a chance to read the study about peanut oil, and just posted what Ray emailed so you (or others) would have it. I'm glad it's hydrogenated, that makes more sense.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119594 Thank you, thank you, thank you! Thanks for other quotes as well!

Not sure if srs.

 

[brandonk]

post 119594

post 119584 When a person wants to lose excess fat, limiting the diet to low fat milk, eggs, orange juice, and a daily carrot or two, will provide the essential nutrients without excess calories

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Thanks for other quotes as well!

Agreed, and of course none of this contradicts what he's said, that taking several tablespoons of coconut oil was the way that he himself lost about 15 pounds over several weeks. One of his friends also, at Ray Peat's suggestion, took 5 ounces of coconut oil (ten tablespoons) a day and lost a lot of fat over several weeks.

An amusing quote from the recently transcribed interview (posted above) is, "The coconut oil industry has a bad lobby."

The problem with (unhydrogenated) coconut oil is that it is about 2-3% PUFAs.

 

[haidut]

post 119597

post 119594 Thank you, thank you, thank you! Thanks for other quotes as well!

Not sure if srs.

Yeah, serious. I am not being sarcastic.

 

[haidut]

post 119596

post 119575

Where did you see that I ascribe views to Roddy and Peat? What I said are direct quotes from Peat on different occasions.
...

Brandon,

I disagree. I don't ascribe anything to Roddy, and the stuff I mention from Peat is quotes from himself. See below:
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... bly#p76445
https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... 9&start=20

So, in the past Ray has said different things probably depending on context. I am pretty sure that he said for people trying to lose weight fat intake should be low, and he even said about 10% in one interview. I can find those quotes, but I am sure you can do that as well.
Second, the Randle cycle IS a problem, even with saturated fat but of course to a much lower degree than with PUFA. Fatty acid oxidation reduces glycogen synthesis and directly antagonizes insulin "receptors"/signalling. I don't know what degree of fatty acid oxidation is optimal, but if metabolism is in favor of fatty acid oxidation then it IS a problem. Again, as Ray said, at rest muscles burn mostly fat but in exertion you better not be burning fat or it will make you insulin resistant. See below for more info. The first thread had a quote from Peat you provided saying that fatty acids inhibit glucose oxidation. ANY fatty acids, by PUFA does it best. The last thread is a human study.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=8157&p=113726&hilit=randle+cycle#p113726
viewtopic.php?t=7991
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49&p=78
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=6233&p=74200
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5117&p=59850
http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/ ... 2.full.pdf

Finally, you are dead wrong on peanut oil. The studies you posted show that fully hydrogenated peanut oil has beneficial effect, not just any peanut oil. Do you know what full hydrogenation of unsaturated fat does? It saturates it.

No, there are no such quotes from Ray Peat specifically about saturated fat or ketones. The issue he has repeatedly stated or suggested is only with finding food sources of fat that do not contain any PUFAs.

In his interview that I posted above, I feel he says what he needs to say about saturated fat. I will try to give my understanding of what he is saying, but this is me talking:

The Selye stress response blocks or inactivates oxidation of glucose. However, saturated fat blocks the Selye stress response, thereby reactivating oxidation of glucose.

That's about a simple as I can make it. It's OK if you disagree and have read pubmed studies and such! It's great that you are thinking about this on your own!

I think it's unfair to Ray Peat's body of work to characterize it as recommending somehow a low saturated fat or low ketone diet. He's never done that.

I haven't had a chance to read the study about peanut oil, and just posted what Ray emailed so you (or others) would have it. I'm glad it's hydrogenated, that makes more sense.

True, no references speaking against ketones. In fact, he said it is a beneficial energy source. I think the amount of fat comes down to context. Some people indeed have had success with eating tons of coconut oil and losing weight. Others gain weight on it, as well as on milk fat and butter.

 

[brandonk]

Has anyone here ever gained weight on coconut oil? How much? Was it 3-10 tablespoons a day?

FWIW, I've been consuming a third or more of my calories from coconut oil (about 1,000 calories a day), and also having 200-300 grams of fruit sugar a day (juice with fructose), and I've lost a lot of waist fat/BF% (but that's only me, I'm sure).

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Ketones?

Ketones are produced when no food is ingested after about 2-3 days when all glycogen is gone. The liver starts converting your fat stores into ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are water-soluble molecules that are produced by the liver from fatty acids during periods of fasting for cells of the body to use as energy instead of glucose. Two of the three are used as a source of energy in the heart and brain while the third (acetone) is a degradation breakdown product of acetoacetic acid. The brain and red blood cells are then fueled by these ketone bodies.

Your breath smells like something crawled in there and died, in this state.

We do lose some protein for the first day or so when water fasting, about 70 grams but we then turn to fatty acids instead of protein, so long as we do not become very active. If we stay relaxing, we will not burn protein. This is the natural adaptation humans have, unlike many other animals. Even a skinny male can go about 70 days with just water and little body fat stores. It is truly amazing that the human can survive that long with no food. We have this adaptation to burn fat instead of protein because if we didn't we'd be dead in a week.

A person typically burns through one whole pound of fat per day during this process. This is real ketosis, not snake oil paleo "ketosis."

Hunger is suppressed when this starts and people report feeling "amazing" and full of energy in this state but they have good days and bad days as well.

True protein deficiency is called "Kwashiorkor." That's after all fat stores are burned and the body starts burning muscle and organ tissue for energy.

The only exception to this process is an MCAD deficiency:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8493

Real life people in ketosis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuWCapperfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgJfzih ... SW&index=9

I'm actually going to do this soon. I was inspired by Sean Lee, the guy in the second video, to do a 10 day water fast. I'm going to do it in a few weeks.

 

[haidut]

post 119608 Ketones?

Ketones are produced when no food is ingested after about 2-3 days when all glycogen is gone. The liver starts converting your fat stores into ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are water-soluble molecules that are produced by the liver from fatty acids during periods of fasting for cells of the body to use as energy instead of glucose. Two of the three are used as a source of energy in the heart and brain while the third (acetone) is a degradation breakdown product of acetoacetic acid. The brain and red blood cells are then fueled by these ketone bodies.

Your breath smells like something crawled in there and died, in this state.

We do lose some protein for the first day or so when water fasting, about 70 grams but we then turn to fatty acids instead of protein, so long as we do not become very active. If we stay relaxing, we will not burn protein. This is the natural adaptation humans have, unlike many other animals. Even a skinny male can go about 70 days with just water and little body fat stores. It is truly amazing that the human can survive that long with no food. We have this adaptation to burn fat instead of protein because if we didn't we'd be dead in a week.

A person typically burns through one whole pound of fat per day during this process. This is real ketosis, not snake oil paleo "ketosis."

True protein deficiency is called "Kwashiorkor." That's after all fat stores are burned and the body starts burning muscle and organ tissue for energy.

The only exception to this process is an MCAD deficiency:

https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... =11&t=8493

Real life people in ketosis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuWCapperfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgJfzih ... SW&index=9

I'm actually going to do this soon. I was inspired by Sean Lee, the guy in the second video, to do a 10 day water fast.

So, Kwashiorkor is basically cachexia? Or more accurately, non-pathological sarcopenia?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119609 So, Kwashiorkor is basically cachexia? Or more accurately, non-pathological sarcopenia?

They all seem to be closely related.

 

[Brian]

post 119608 Ketones?

Aren't ketones produced from MCT's in the liver even without ketosis from fasting or glucose restriction?

 

[brandonk]

I think, yes, as long as you have adequate MCTs in the diet. In the studies I've seen (Veech, et al.), they're done with subjects eating about 80-120 grams of MCTs over the course of the day. Studies also seem to show it does not matter how much sugar or protein you eat with the MCTs, and you can test this result for yourself with ketone test strips and measuring what you eat.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 119615 Aren't ketones produced from MCT's in the liver even without ketosis from fasting or glucose restriction?

On a smaller level, yes but muscles and the heart's myocardium burn fatty acids at rest normally. But this is not ketosis. Your urine keto test will be fully purple when in real ketosis, not a spoon or two of mct.

This is ketosis: 100+ days of just water for religious purposes, this woman was motivated!!! Look at how much of her adipose tissue was burned:

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She documented nearly the whole thing. Amazing:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 35D7B5734E