Danny Roddy Says Randle Cycle Exists Even In The Presence Of An Excess Of Saturated Fats

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"The Randle cycle, also known as the glucose fatty-acid cycle, is a metabolic process involving the competition of glucose and fatty acids for substrates. It is theorized to play a role in explaining type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance." - Wikipedia

Roddy:

"Some basic things that I think are missing from the above is the role of pyruvate decarboxylation, which generates more carbon dioxide from the breakdown of glucose that fats; the role of prostaglandins in health and disease (i.e., high fat diets are typically higher in polyunsaturated fats); the role of hepatic glycogen in the resistance to metabolic stress (i.e., the conversion of glucose to lactic acid and the increased functioning of adrenaline, cortisol, estrogen, growth hormone, etc.); and the role of the so-called "Randle cycle" that exists even in the presence of an excess of saturated fats."

from the comment section of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHL7CyKoHPE

It's not just PUFA that's involved in the Randle Cycle, saturated fat as well.
 

burtlancast

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Ray never claimed otherwise.
But as i understand, he made the point that saturated fats don't trigger the liberation of more stored fatty acids, contrary to PUFAS.
In one case, the inflammation (eventually) comes to an end, while in the other, it keeps perpetuating itself due to the nature of the liberated fatty acids.
 

Parsifal

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So eating coconut oil while eating sugar is bad?

Or is it okay if you add niacinamide?
 
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tara

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Joocy_J

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W&P, this is jb4566 from the old peatarian site, how much fat do you eat per day? what is an outline of your daily diet?

thanks
 

tara

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I don't conclude that it is bad in general - I'd favour eating them together as art of a abalanced mixed meal or snack.
Only that eating more than one can handle at a time can be a problem. Either in excess can be stressful. I presume large amounts of coconut oil would suppress glucose oxidation somewhat (by Randle seesaw).
 
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jb116

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tara said:
post 100057 I don't conclude that it is bad in general - I'd favour eating them together as art of a abalanced mixed meal or snack.
Only that eating more than one can handle at a time can be a problem. Either in excess can be stressful. I presume large amounts of coconut oil would suppress glucose oxidation somewhat (by Randle seesaw).

oh ok, yea in large amounts I can understand it can be stressful just as eating when you aren't actually hungry.
Now what that threshold is; what constitutes "large amount" I think is not so clear cut and also must vary person to person.
 
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haidut

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burtlancast said:
post 91991 Ray never claimed otherwise.
But as i understand, he made the point that saturated fats don't trigger the liberation of more stored fatty acids, contrary to PUFAS.
In one case, the inflammation (eventually) comes to an end, while in the other, it keeps perpetuating itself due to the nature of the liberated fatty acids.

I think we should also point out that only PUFA is a source of the inflammatory mediators, especially the arachidonic acid type of PUFA. I am not aware of saturated fat causing inflammation of any type. This is the reason saturated fat is used to REVERSE cirrhosis - i.e. cirrhosis is a process of excessive inflammation leading to fibrosis and ultimately death of liver cells.
 
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CoolTweetPete

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tara said:
post 100044
Parsifal said:
post 98634 So eating coconut oil while eating sugar is bad?
I'd say it depends on the quantities.

Pardon my biochemical ignorance, I just read the Randle Cycle Wikipedia page and it left me with more questions than before I read it! :?

Tara, you mention the quantities matter, and you mention a see-saw effect. Do you think if one consumed a serving of coconut oil, and consumed a much higher ratio of sugar in the same meal, would this tip the metaphorical see-saw toward glucose oxidation (and is that the ultimate goal)?
 
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tara

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CoolTweetPete said:
post 102091 Tara, you mention the quantities matter, and you mention a see-saw effect. Do you think if one consumed a serving of coconut oil, and consumed a much higher ratio of sugar in the same meal, would this tip the metaphorical see-saw toward glucose oxidation (and is that the ultimate goal)?

My biochemical ignorance is right up there too. I'm working on it slowly. :)

My impression is that Peat favours getting glucose oxidation working well, along with restoring glycogen storage capacity to help keep the glucose supply reasonably stable.
My impression form him is that a little coconut oil (eg a tsp) can help with this, presumably by diluting and displacing some of the PUFAs. As well as mixed meals (carbs, fats, protein in food form) generally being easier to digest and get nutrients out of than a single component by itself.

I thought that when there are lots of fatty acids available (SFA, MUFA or PUFA), the cells tend to use more of that for energy, and less of the glucose. (And the unsaturated fatty acids have other negative effects too, that the saturated fats don't). But looking at that Wikipedia page, I noticed that it specifies long chain fatty acids. Coconut oil has lots of short and medium chain fatty acids, so now I'm unsure about whether what I wrote before does apply to coconut oil.

I would still expect that if you flood the system with lots of sugar, and then also lots of coconut oil, it might be hard to process it all fast enough, and might leave stressfully high glucose levels for a while.

My experience is that when I have eaten lots of sugar, if I eat more than just a little (eg a tsp or less) coconut oil, I tend to feel worse for it. I tend to crave fats more at bed time.

For people who are struggling to oxidise sugar efficiently already, there seems to be some controversy about whether low fat (still with a little coconut oil or similar) or more moderate fat is more helpful. It seems as though some people have used a low fat diet for a while to improve their sugar use. But not everyone seems to thrive on that, and some people say they do well with more even splits of fat and sugar. My guess is it depends a bit on the individual context.
 
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CoolTweetPete

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tara said:
post 102294
CoolTweetPete said:
post 102091 Tara, you mention the quantities matter, and you mention a see-saw effect. Do you think if one consumed a serving of coconut oil, and consumed a much higher ratio of sugar in the same meal, would this tip the metaphorical see-saw toward glucose oxidation (and is that the ultimate goal)?

My biochemical ignorance is right up there too. I'm working on it slowly. :)

My impression is that Peat favours getting glucose oxidation working well, along with restoring glycogen storage capacity to help keep the glucose supply reasonably stable.
My impression form him is that a little coconut oil (eg a tsp) can help with this, presumably by diluting and displacing some of the PUFAs. As well as mixed meals (carbs, fats, protein in food form) generally being easier to digest and get nutrients out of than a single component by itself.

I thought that when there are lots of fatty acids available (SFA, MUFA or PUFA), the cells tend to use more of that for energy, and less of the glucose. (And the unsaturated fatty acids have other negative effects too, that the saturated fats don't). But looking at that Wikipedia page, I noticed that it specifies long chain fatty acids. Coconut oil has lots of short and medium chain fatty acids, so now I'm unsure about whether what I wrote before does apply to coconut oil.

I would still expect that if you flood the system with lots of sugar, and then also lots of coconut oil, it might be hard to process it all fast enough, and might leave stressfully high glucose levels for a while.

My experience is that when I have eaten lots of sugar, if I eat more than just a little (eg a tsp or less) coconut oil, I tend to feel worse for it. I tend to crave fats more at bed time.

For people who are struggling to oxidise sugar efficiently already, there seems to be some controversy about whether low fat (still with a little coconut oil or similar) or more moderate fat is more helpful. It seems as though some people have used a low fat diet for a while to improve their sugar use. But not everyone seems to thrive on that, and some people say they do well with more even splits of fat and sugar. My guess is it depends a bit on the individual context.

Thank you very much for your take on this Tara.

This post is very helpful and interesting, as usual. :hattip
 
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kyev

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One of the arguments in the 80/10/10 book against fat is that it slows glucose oxidation. That's why all the fruitatians eat low fat. I'll try to pull a quote from it when I get home. I think short term this may work, but long term you run into issues from too low fat.
 

burtlancast

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kyev said:
I think short term this may work, but long term you run into issues from too low fat.

What would those be ?

Low absorbtion of ADEK vitamins ?
 

haidut

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James IV

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Worrying about fats and carbs competeing in the Randal Cycle is probably not warranted. Eventually they will both be used. Seems you should probably just eat meals that taste good. Sometimes that may be more carbs, sometimes more fat. The body seems perfectly designed to utilize both fuel sources.

As far as what constitutes enough fat; Well Fat makes food taste good, helps achieve sufficient calories, and helps keep blood sugar up longer without having to constantly eat. Not actively avoiding fat also allows you to eat a larger variety of food, which is probably beneficial.
Phisologically, it seems there is no real minimum for fat intake. However, in real life, fat probably becomes "too low" when it leads to loss of appetite and/or insufficient calorie intake from lack of food enjoyment. I'm sure you could counteract this by consciously over feeding on carbs. In fact that seems to be the approach pushed by some of the more "successful" 80/10/10 folks. However eating tons of bananas, dates, and rice just sounds miserable to me, as does eating any single food in large quantities.
 

haidut

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James IV said:
post 115182 Worrying about fats and carbs competeing in the Randal Cycle is probably not warranted. Eventually they will both be used. Seems you should probably just eat meals that taste good. Sometimes that may be more carbs, sometimes more fat. The body seems perfectly designed to utilize both fuel sources.

As far as what constitutes enough fat; Well Fat makes food taste good, helps achieve sufficient calories, and helps keep blood sugar up longer without having to constantly eat. Not actively avoiding fat also allows you to eat a larger variety of food, which is probably beneficial.
Phisologically, it seems there is no real minimum for fat intake. However, in real life, fat probably becomes "too low" when it leads to loss of appetite and/or insufficient calorie intake from lack of food enjoyment. I'm sure you could counteract this by consciously over feeding on carbs. In fact that seems to be the approach pushed by some of the more "successful" 80/10/10 folks. However eating tons of bananas, dates, and rice just sounds miserable to me, as does eating any single food in large quantities.

Ray kind of agrees with that approach, but for healthy people. He said the ideal macro-ratio is not known but it is probably about equal percentage of each macro, so 33/33/33. He has recommended low fat to people trying to lose weight and boost metabolism. Also, in people with diabetes or insulin resistance you probably want to avoid fat oxidation as much as possible since it contributes to the pathology.
 
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