Danny Roddy And Meal Suggestions

[4peatssake]

I don't understand your point, J. I never implied I had nutritional deficiencies. I only said that white sugar robs your body of nutrition. I understand if someone wants to have a "treat" with white sugar in it. Not a big deal at all. But when you're adding sugar to everything like Danny Roddy suggests, that's just a dumb health strategy. Doesn't make sense at all to me to build up your health by eating nutrient rich foods, then breaking your health down with white sugar. Which is exactly what it does.

It's like making a lot of money at work, building up your savings, and blowing most of it on booze and cigarettes. Adding white sugar to things literally has no benefit to the body whatsoever unless you are in dire need of carbohydrates. At which point, eating or drinking something nutritious is a no brainer. The whole white sugar thing didnt make sense to me from the start, but I trusted Danny Roddy's Peat research. Turns out, the main man himself advised against using it!

Well, you live and learn. I'm glad I experienced the downside of added sugar. It was something I needed to go through, for more clarification of what works and what doesn't. :)

Thank you for the further clarifications, Imonaquest! It would be really helpful if you would post Ray's comments to you in the email depository. I think this information is very important especially as I could not find anything in Ray's articles to support your initial post.

I consume a lot of OJ and milk and have not found any problem with using table sugar in coffee, however, your experience has piqued my curiosity and I may cut back on my use of table sugar to see what unfolds. Interesting to me now, that I had been using chocolate syrup (cliff's recipe made with table sugar, cocoa and water) in both my milk and coffee, and had felt it had become a problem for me but I thought it was the cocoa. I still think cocoa is an issue but I'm wondering too if it may have been the sugar. Jury is still out for me on this.

Thanks!

 

[frustrated]

The point I was trying to make, and Ray himself even said it, was that white sugar is devoid of nutrients, and because of that, the body has to use stored nutrients in order to process it. So in the end, it ends up robbing your body of nutrition, which is why Ray doesn't suggest the use of it. He said its ok in a pinch for added carbohydrate, but there are better sugar options out there, namely fruit, OJ and honey.

I've been at this now for 6 months, and have tinkered with a lot of variations of this diet. No refined sugar is really the only version that's worked for me. Feel terrific. I don't put sugar in my coffee anymore. I just make sure to drink coffee with meal where I'm having some fruit. I put whole milk in my coffee, eat a few cups of pineapple or mango, and now all of a sudden coffee is working for me. I had said before I had an adverse reaction to the coffee on this diet. Wasn't the case. It was the 4-6 tsp of sugar I was putting into it.

Since I stopped using sugar, my pulse has jumped up 8 bpm, my body temperature has gone up .5 degrees, the dark circles under my eyes have drastically lessened, and I have much more of a pink color in my face.

I'm not here to argue that white sugar is good or bad for you. I think some of you who have had positive reactions with it might not be eating enough fruit or drinking enough juice. Relying on processed, mineral robbing white sugar isn't the best health strategy long-term.

I feel like absolute shite eating large amounts of white sugar. Sugared milk, sugared oj, etc. So I am not convinced that approach is good at all. Sometimes eating white sugar would even give me the opposite effect of anti-stress. For example, If I have too much white sugar before I go to bed I would wake up with a pounding heart within 15-20 minutes of falling asleep. When I realized these effects were from white sugar I switched to orange juice and some whole fruit and I began to feel so much better.

Too much white sugar also ended my libido and gave me consistent blood shot eyes.

Almost everyone who I've seen do badly on RP's diet adds boat loads of white sugar to everything cuz they read a second hand interpretation of his work. It's also a fantastic way to gain weight.

 

[frustrated]

Having 3-10 panic attacks a day for simply adding sugar to milk and OJ shows severe nutritional deficiencies and broken metabolism. Your case is rare and you need to see professionals. Do you know nutritional profile of honey?
Vitamin and mineral content of honey is almost zero. Here is a link to nutrition of honey
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5568/2
There are tons of websites that will calculate all your vitamin and minerals if you plug in your food intakes.
You also have to know your calorie requirements. If your calorie requirement is 2000 cal you will not be feeling fine if you eat 4000 calorie. Sugar increases metabolism and increased metabolism needs extra nutrient. Did you ask Ray Peat how many cups of coffee he drinks everyday and what kind of sugar he adds to his coffee and ice cream? Please do not bash Ray Peat if he adds sugar to his coffee and ice cream.
There are 100 articles and 70 plus hours of audio interview of RP. All the things you need to know is there.
That is first hand information.
http://raypeat.com/articles/
http://eastwesthealing.com/podcasts/ray-peat/

I never had panic attacks but I did notice that adding large amounts of white sugar to everything started to make me very anxious. I am talking 200g sucrose from white sugar ontop of everything else.

There is a lot of other stuff in honey you don't see in nutrition data http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399220/ and there is a lot of other stuff in fruits, like oranges, that you don't see in nutrition data. These substances have a real, immediate and beneficial, effect on our physiology that white sugar does not.

I don't think there's much wrong with sugaring your coffee but the "add white sugar" to everything to lower stress is extremely misguided and probably why some people gain weight when they start "Peating". It's as if people don't consider that there are diminishing returns on sucroses stress lowering effect, or that white sugar is negative calorie food.

 

[cliff]

I've always been an advocate for fruit over sugar. Large amounts of refined sugar shouldn't even really be used that much unless you are an athlete and need the calories or for very specific band aid remedies.

 

[Beebop]

Fruit is preferable if there is ripe fruit available. That's a big if! There isn't any properly ripe fruit available here at the moment. Honey is fine but is potentially allergenic - so not fine for everyone.

Sugar is better for your health than starch.
Frustrated you say that sugar will encourage weight gain - this is contrary to Peat's writings. Starch promotes weight gain faster than sugar does. So in eating sugar in place of starch why would that promote weight gain?

According to the USDA Economic Research Service, the 2007 calorie consumption as flour and cereal products increased 3% from 1970, while added sugar calories decreased 1%. Calories from meats, eggs, and nuts decreased 4%, from dairy foods decreased 3%, and calories from added fats increased 7%. The percentage of calories from fruits and vegetables stayed the same. The average person consumed 603 calories per day more in 2007 than in 1970. If changes in the national diet are responsible for the increase of obesity, diabetes, and the diseases associated with them, then it would seem that the increased consumption of fat and starch is responsible, and that would be consistent with the known effects of starches and polyunsaturated fats.

Ray Peat, Sugar Issues

At the moment, if I ate no starch, and no white sugar and relied only on ripe fruit I wouldn't be getting anywhere close to the amounts of carbs I need, even with all the milk. I have bad reactions to many fruits, so, the wisdom here is to listen to your body and adjust these recommendations for yourself.

Imonaquest it would be good to see the context in which RP recommends against sugar. Is he advising this for you personally or is he saying this as a general statement for everyone?

 

[jaketthomas]

I echo the thoughts of Frustrated and Imonaquest. I feel the same exact way. It never made sense to me, all of this sugaring every fluid you consume. I agree with Frustrated, in that sugar doesn't give me anti-stress, it MAKES me stressed. To the max, actually.

I do exceptionally well on fruit, grape juice and OJ. I used to have problems with OJ, but it was only bothersome when I was adding lots of white sugar to everything. Now that I'm off white sugar, no problems with it anymore. Ditto for coffee. I started drinking my coffee black or with half and half. I'll either have a cup of coffee after a full meal, or after a snack of fruit. It was just something I gravitated towards after 3-4 months on the diet. I realized my body was very negatively reacting to white sugar.

I'm not a big fan of honey either, but I do react better to it than white sugar. I try to keep ALL added sugars out of my diet.

My biggest realizations on this diet were:
1. I wasn't getting nearly enough salt in my diet.
2. I was drinking way too much water.
3. I was getting too few simple carbohydrates (as fruit and juice).
4. I was consuming far too much muscle meat.
5. I was consuming way more phosphorus than calcium.
6. I was taking way too many vitamins and supplements.
7. I was eating too many hard to digest vegetables.
8. I was eating too many foods that damaged my intestines.

Making those changes has been a radical transformation in my health. But sugaring the ***t out of everything, Danny Roddy style, made me feel like garbage.

 

[frustrated]

Sugar is better for your health than starch.
Frustrated you say that sugar will encourage weight gain - this is contrary to Peat's writings. Starch promotes weight gain faster than sugar does. So in eating sugar in place of starch why would that promote weight gain?

Almost everyone who I've seen do badly on RP's diet adds boat loads of white sugar to everything cuz they read a second hand interpretation of his work. It's also a fantastic way to gain weight.

You misinterpreted the context. I'm telling you adding sugar to taste to everything is a great way to gain weight. Over all calories matter and adding white sugar to everything is a great delivery vehicle for extra cals. Don't tell me that white sugar is as satiety inducing as fruit.

I'll address your actual strawman tho;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9094871

Where is the metabolic advantage of white sugar over starch?

 

[frustrated]

I echo the thoughts of Frustrated and Imonaquest. I feel the same exact way. It never made sense to me, all of this sugaring every fluid you consume. I agree with Frustrated, in that sugar doesn't give me anti-stress, it MAKES me stressed. To the max, actually.

I do exceptionally well on fruit, grape juice and OJ. I used to have problems with OJ, but it was only bothersome when I was adding lots of white sugar to everything. Now that I'm off white sugar, no problems with it anymore. Ditto for coffee. I started drinking my coffee black or with half and half. I'll either have a cup of coffee after a full meal, or after a snack of fruit. It was just something I gravitated towards after 3-4 months on the diet. I realized my body was very negatively reacting to white sugar.

I'm not a big fan of honey either, but I do react better to it than white sugar. I try to keep ALL added sugars out of my diet.

My biggest realizations on this diet were:
1. I wasn't getting nearly enough salt in my diet.
2. I was drinking way too much water.
3. I was getting too few simple carbohydrates (as fruit and juice).
4. I was consuming far too much muscle meat.
5. I was consuming way more phosphorus than calcium.
6. I was taking way too many vitamins and supplements.
7. I was eating too many hard to digest vegetables.
8. I was eating too many foods that damaged my intestines.

Making those changes has been a radical transformation in my health. But sugaring the s*** out of everything, Danny Roddy style, made me feel like garbage.

I can say exactly the same for me for all 8 points...

What's do you eat daily now?

I eat about 150g sucrose (all from whole oranges and grapes), and mostly full fat dairy products.

 

[Mittir]

I am talking 200g sucrose from white sugar ontop of everything else.

Ray Peat suggests 180 to 250 grams of carb for an average person. On a 2000 calorie diet 250 grams of sugar means 50% of total calorie .One quart of OJ has 100 grams of sugar and 1 quart of milk has 50 grams of sugar. There is not much room left for adding another 200 grams of plain sugar or honey. I do not have any idea why anyone needs extra 200 grams of sugar on top of 150 grams of sugar from OJ and Milk, that is 350 grams of sugar. I thought most people were familiar with basic nutrition, like RDA of vitamins, minerals and caloric requirements based on metabolism, height, weight and activity. It looks like you guys were adding 2 cup of sugar in 1 cup of milk/OJ. Even if someone is adding extra pure sugar or honey they should know that they have to get extra nutrient from other sources to process these calories.

 

[Beebop]

Don't tell me that white sugar is as satiety inducing as fruit.

I did not say this.
What I actually said is that I personally get a bad reaction to some fruits, particularly unripe fruits, and that there isn't any properly ripe fruit available in the shops at the moment. I would prefer to eat more fruit than sugar, but it isn't always an option.

 

[charlie]

I think this is a really great conversation and hope that we can keep it as civil as possible so that the message does not get lost.

There have been some really great points made in this thread and I sincerely appreciate this discussion.

 

[j.]

Your case is rare and you need to see professionals.

I disagree with this. They will likely give anti-depressants. If you feel better with a Peat diet, just keep doing it. As you get rid of PUFA as time passes, I bet your panic attacks will diminish their frequency. If you do get a panic attack you could see if breathing in a paper bag or just breathing more slowly helps you.

 

[cliff]

Beebop-

I think if you can't get ripe fruit tubers would be the next best choice, then canned fruit after that. Sugar should be used more like a condiment, it shouldn't be 25-50% of your calories. You just displace to much nutrition and theirs no way to make that up imo.

 

[Dutchie]

Beebop-

I think if you can't get ripe fruit tubers would be the next best choice, then canned fruit after that. Sugar should be used more like a condiment, it shouldn't be 25-50% of your calories. You just displace to much nutrition and theirs no way to make that up imo.

I don't think the sugarcontent should be minimalised if he feels ok with it. You just migth want to swap the sucrose resource and see if your symptoms start to ease/fade?ditch the white table sugar and swap it for raw cane sugar,palm sugar,quality maple syrup,molasses.....lots of minerals&nutrients in there.
I personally have never and still not see the benefits of white table sugar,but that's just my opinion.

 

[jaguar43]

I think some people get tied into "tunnel vision" and start doing everything that someone's says. The truth is that you should take everything you hear (even from ray) with a grain of salt. You just don't do it because other people do it. You must learn to experiment with the type of food and learn how to listen to your body. When trying knew things like sugar, food, thyroid and/or prescription drugs you have to take responsibility.You can't blame ray or danny for your issues unless your paying for a service. Ray gives out free information and some people cannot seem to succeed because they have issues that don't even relate to his advice.

 

[frustrated]

I am talking 200g sucrose from white sugar ontop of everything else.

Ray Peat suggests 180 to 250 grams of carb for an average person. On a 2000 calorie diet 250 grams of sugar means 50% of total calorie .One quart of OJ has 100 grams of sugar and 1 quart of milk has 50 grams of sugar. There is not much room left for adding another 200 grams of plain sugar or honey. I do not have any idea why anyone needs extra 200 grams of sugar on top of 150 grams of sugar from OJ and Milk, that is 350 grams of sugar. I thought most people were familiar with basic nutrition, like RDA of vitamins, minerals and caloric requirements based on metabolism, height, weight and activity. It looks like you guys were adding 2 cup of sugar in 1 cup of milk/OJ. Even if someone is adding extra pure sugar or honey they should know that they have to get extra nutrient from other sources to process these calories.

We aren't talking about what Ray Peat says we are talking about the consequences of following second hand advice.

And FYI when I was eating 200g added sucrose from white sugar I maintained weight on 3800 cals, so it really isn't a lot.

 

[frustrated]

Don't tell me that white sugar is as satiety inducing as fruit.

I did not say this.
What I actually said is that I personally get a bad reaction to some fruits, particularly unripe fruits, and that there isn't any properly ripe fruit available in the shops at the moment. I would prefer to eat more fruit than sugar, but it isn't always an option.

I know you didn't. I am trying to explain to you why adding sugar to everything is fattening. Compared to eating fruit ,or even starch, it is no where near as satiating. Why do you think there are so many studies where people start to get fat eating sugar sweetened beverages ad libitum?

White sugar didn't make me fat. Ectomorphs can basically eat anything and not ever get fat. But I can say with certainty that's adding sugar to everything is why people gain weight on this diet (outside of glycogen and building muscle). Then they blame it on Ray Peat instead of Matt Stone.

 

[kettlebell]

Sugar itself is beneficial if you can process it!

Exactly that.

The point I was trying to make, and Ray himself even said it, was that white sugar is devoid of nutrients, and because of that, the body has to use stored nutrients in order to process it. So in the end, it ends up robbing your body of nutrition, which is why Ray doesn't suggest the use of it.

I have seen Ray recommend additional white sugar to people plenty of times but it is always in context of that persons situation. It is a supplement and can be used as such. He has no problem with the use of refined sugar as long as it is in and around a nutrient dense diet. Every answer from Ray Peat is in regards to the persons situation he is conversing with.

I think it is important we be very clear about that. And I bristle when I hear criticism of sugar of any kind, especially when its therapeutic value is so well documented.

Bang on the money. Refined sugar is not an issue. All it does it REVEAL ISSUES - A lack of nutrients or ability to process it.

So if you have trouble metabolising it or don't have the stored base of nutrients required to process it then it may not be for you as a supplement.

Everything in context - The only thing this whole thread shows is that everything is always individual.

I don't understand your point, J. I never implied I had nutritional deficiencies

If sugar made you feel like crap you had nutritional deficiencies or a lack of ability to metabolise it. Useful information which you used even if you didn't realise the implication.

Some feel like crap using sugar - That gives you information you can use. Some people need it to make up calorie requirements on top of a nutrient dense diet - That also gives information that can be used.

Refined sugar in itself is a useful tool which can be used to give us information on what is currently going on in our bodies in regards to metabolism and nutrient density of our diets.

There seems to be some Danny Roddy slating going on to claiming he recommends adding sugar to everything. It almost seems like one or two people here are claiming he recommends refined white sugar as a major calorie source which is something that cannot be implied. It also clearly states at the bottom of his website:

Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. Please do not confuse me for a guru or expert—I dropped out of community college. Trust no one, including me.

He is always always always saying do you own research and work out what works best for you. He is big on getting labs done too.

Blindly following advice from anyone whilst ignoring your own bodily reaction to it is foolish to the extreme. I made that mistake, I have been very foolish and paid a heavy price (4 months of terrible illness). My "Ray Peat diet" will look different to the next persons.

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[pboy]

I think the take home message is that Roddy and Peat just kind of want to lead people away from thier fear of sugar as the general public does, so they say white sugar, nearly any sugar, is better than no sugar or low blood sugar because stress = inflammation, and low blood sugar causes stress. Stress over time leads to lower and lower metabolism. However, I don't think they mean that just adding more and more sugar = more and more benefit, sugar is therapeutic in the sense that it can prevent low blood sugar, but it doesn't compound benefit by just adding more in of itself if your glycogen and blood sugar are already satisfied (I think this was Peat's explanation in one of his interviews)

 

[Dutchie]

I am talking 200g sucrose from white sugar ontop of everything else.

Ray Peat suggests 180 to 250 grams of carb for an average person. On a 2000 calorie diet 250 grams of sugar means 50% of total calorie .One quart of OJ has 100 grams of sugar and 1 quart of milk has 50 grams of sugar. There is not much room left for adding another 200 grams of plain sugar or honey. I do not have any idea why anyone needs extra 200 grams of sugar on top of 150 grams of sugar from OJ and Milk, that is 350 grams of sugar. I thought most people were familiar with basic nutrition, like RDA of vitamins, minerals and caloric requirements based on metabolism, height, weight and activity. It looks like you guys were adding 2 cup of sugar in 1 cup of milk/OJ. Even if someone is adding extra pure sugar or honey they should know that they have to get extra nutrient from other sources to process these calories.

We aren't talking about what Ray Peat says we are talking about the consequences of following second hand advice.

And FYI when I was eating 200g added sucrose from white sugar I maintained weight on 3800 cals, so it really isn't a lot.

Wow,3800cals and no gain?what@ it without the sugar?and do you have an active job/workout a lot?
H
ere i am with my detrimental pattern and being too shitty of 3000.cals a day