Damaging Effects Of High Intensity Exercise

[benaoao]

@cyclops: I’d go for 12-16% fat. Not really shredded 6-pack, up to a fluffy 4 pack.

To the OP - like I was saying in my first answer you can easily add carbs, especially during that workout window. My understanding is the more glycogen you’re using the higher Cortisol release. Jay Cutler recommends 3:1 carbs-protein ratio. Try following this. You don’t need that many proteins, even on AAS. Bayesian bodybuilding has a great article or 2 on the matter

For people who read this and are natural - I’ve read that 4000kcal per week is a turning point beyond which exercise can be detrimental. I guess Cortisol being the problem. Depending on the intensity and duration of the workout this is roughly the good old one hour per day formula. I like this plan a lot by Thibaudeau:

The Best Damn Workout Plan For Natural Lifters | T Nation

Edit with some sources for my numbers:
- number of kcals burnt per workout/ Research Review #3 - Is it possible to increase muscle mass during caloric restriction? • r/AdvancedFitness
- kcals burnt per week/ https://www.marksdailyapple.com/why...e-than-4000-calories-a-week-through-exercise/

If you’re an athlete whose only job is to train, and you’re privy to massages and cutting edge recovery techniques and everything else, then you’ll be able to handle more work. You’ll be far fitter than the average person and thus better equipped to mitigate the oxidative fallout from excessive exercise. But for members of the general population who have to contend with the day-to-day stress of living in this world, getting up early to feed the kids and beat traffic, balancing exercise time with work time with family time with personal time, sneaking peeks at the latest blog post, hoping to get enough sleep to make it through the next day? You’re going to have a harder time recovering from the stress of a 4,000+ caloric expenditure to make it worth your while.

Not necessarily a huge fan of Mark’sDA but those are some good words, for a natural trainee of course

 

[Cirion]

3:1 sounds right. That's the minimum I try to aim for. Like I mentioned before, 2:1 is bare minimum. With the OP having 1.7:1, that's definitely why there are issues. With 300g protein that'd put him at 900g carbs. Sounds like a lot, and it is, but with the level of training he is doing, honestly, that sounds right to me. I mean, like I said before, I eat 600-700 easily and I only train 3x a week with brief 45-60 minute workouts that are never to failure. With these many carbs I do not get energy problems from workouts. I get around 200-250g protein lately, so that puts my squarely at about 3:1 carb:protein.

It is true you don't need that much protein *for muscle synthesis*. I'm aware of the Bayesian BB post you are referring to. However, there's one key thing they don't consider and this is why I eat high protein:

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

Also, I eat high protein simply because protein is satiating. So is fat, but I'm trying to eat low fat, so the only way I can get satiated is protein. Carbs aren't very satiating for me. I use them for the energy, not the satiation.

Eating high protein is perfectly fine, *as long as your carb:protein intake is close to 3:1*.

The way I look at it, eating high carb will only make you fat if you eat more than you need. I eat until I have enough energy, then I stop. If you continue to eat after you have optimal energy, thats when it will make you fat. I did gain some fat starting off on RP, but thats because I ate high carb AND high fat (I craved fats heavily started off on Peat, because I was used to them). I seem to be on damage control mode now that I've dropped fats significantly.

 

[benaoao]

I agree with what you’re saying. I find it hard to over eat carbs, they become a problem when you drink them of course since insulin gets spiked very high and that triggers enzymes such as SCD1, aromatase... more fat more e2. Yikes.

I’m eating 1kg of potatoes/sweet potatoes a day, a cup (dry) of Thai rice, handful of fruits, carrots, beets... it’s hard to overeat when it’s nutrient dense (rice doesn’t qualify as dense in my books, but it’s great after a workout). Nearing 600g of carbs a day with a quart of OJ... Then again of course I could drink more OJ but I don’t think it’s physiological.

Do you drink a lot of your carbs?

 

[Cirion]

I agree with what you’re saying. I find it hard to over eat carbs, they become a problem when you drink them of course since insulin gets spiked very high and that triggers enzymes such as SCD1, aromatase... more fat more e2. Yikes.

I’m eating 1kg of potatoes/sweet potatoes a day, a cup (dry) of Thai rice, handful of fruits, carrots, beets... it’s hard to overeat when it’s nutrient dense (rice doesn’t qualify as dense in my books, but it’s great after a workout). Nearing 600g of carbs a day with a quart of OJ... Then again of course I could drink more OJ but I don’t think it’s physiological.

Do you drink a lot of your carbs?

I don't find a difference in insulin spike from liquid vs solid sugars (fruit). In fact OJ is a very good source of sugar, I can't recall all the reasons exactly, but basically my understanding is OJ is filled with minerals which help blunt the insulin spikes. Plus, OJ has thiamine in it... and thiamine is needed for sugar metabolism, so that's always a good thing.

If you are having insulin spike problems, it just means you still have some insulin resistance problems anyway. This is why sugar gets such a bad rap among the health community. Sugar makes your energy spike then crash, thus it must be bad. No, that is a sign of insulin resistance. Just because something makes you feel bad doesn't mean it's bad. Just because something makes you feel good (IE, a keto diet), doesn't mean it's good. In fairness, this is what can make nutrition a challenging subject. Everything takes patience, if you want long term results.

People are quick to follow the trends/fads because it immediately might make them feel good. Out of all the diets I've followed, Ray peat seems to have the longest adjustment period. It only took me a week to feel great on Keto - but that "feeling great" was because of stress hormones. Ray peat takes the longest, because his method actually results in good health, and going from bad health to good health doesn't happen quickly, especially when your health has been poor a long time.

I still get some insulin problems, but way less than when I started RP. It's just a matter of getting fully sugar adapted. A lot of people starting off on RP are so insulin resistant that they have had to take naps every time they had even 4-8 oz of OJ. Now, I can take a whole liter or two of OJ, and just sip on it throughout the day and have little problem.

Personally I don't eat starch anymore. I just don't like the taste compared to sugar, and starch is what made my health fail in the first place, but that's just me. I'd say I get upwards of 50% of carbs from liquids. I love OJ a lot. I easily can down 1-2 full 7 cup containers a day. I also like to have a Whey/Maltodexrin shake. My grocery sells calcium fortified OJ, which is great. I plan to drink that from now on to keep my Calcium:Phosphorus ratio high (at least 2:1, if I can, is apparently the ideal ratio). Won't really even need milk at that point.

 

[benaoao]

I’m very sensitive to insulin, not a problem here. What you’re saying makes sense and I’ll drink more carbs then, I don’t want to be short in calories anyway.

You think 2:1 is an optimal calcium:phosphorus ratio? If yes I’ll definitely get more fortified oj. Was shooting for 1:1 which is what I’ve seen touted as physiological in mammals. Where does the 2:1 figure come from?

 

[Cirion]

I’m very sensitive to insulin, not a problem here. What you’re saying makes sense and I’ll drink more carbs then, I don’t want to be short in calories anyway.

You think 2:1 is an optimal calcium:phosphorus ratio? If yes I’ll definitely get more fortified oj. Was shooting for 1:1 which is what I’ve seen touted as physiological in mammals. Where does the 2:1 figure come from?

You don't need to drink more carbs necessarily, I just do so because it's convenient and a lot easier than eating sometimes. I would recommend to at least try out adding more sugar in general though (from fruit, syrup, whatever), and see how it works for you, but I'd certainly not tell you what to do - just a suggestion. If what you're doing is working, then no need to change it.

Calcium Requirement Or Ca-P Ratio?

RP: Probably the long-range optimum is something like that in milk, somewhere between a ratio of 1:1 up to maybe even 2:1 in favor of calcium to phosphorus.

RP: And if your fructose intake is high, then you don't have to worry too much about the exact ratio of calcium to phosphorus, but the ratio in milk 1.3:1 is very close to a very safe ratio. But you can easily get by with two or three times as much phosphate as calcium, especially if your sugar intake is good. And then if you're getting plenty of salt and calcium, you don't have to worry much about the other two calcium and minerals.

Disclaimer - I'm assuming the guy who posted this got this from RP, so I haven't verified that above quotes are indeed from RP. That said, there was another post I read the other day (i'll post it if I can) that shows that even early (1950s) bodybuilders realize the importance of Calcium:Phosphorus ratios and also tended to coach BB'ers to eat a 2:1 ratio.

It does seem like RP says that higher Phosphorus ratios can be better tolerated if sugar intake is good though, but I'd rather err on the side of caution, especially when I'm in the healing phase.

 

[Jpkoepse]

@cyclops: I’d go for 12-16% fat. Not really shredded 6-pack, up to a fluffy 4 pack.

To the OP - like I was saying in my first answer you can easily add carbs, especially during that workout window. My understanding is the more glycogen you’re using the higher Cortisol release. Jay Cutler recommends 3:1 carbs-protein ratio. Try following this. You don’t need that many proteins, even on AAS. Bayesian bodybuilding has a great article or 2 on the matter

For people who read this and are natural - I’ve read that 4000kcal per week is a turning point beyond which exercise can be detrimental. I guess Cortisol being the problem. Depending on the intensity and duration of the workout this is roughly the good old one hour per day formula. I like this plan a lot by Thibaudeau:

The Best Damn Workout Plan For Natural Lifters | T Nation

Edit with some sources for my numbers:
- number of kcals burnt per workout/ Research Review #3 - Is it possible to increase muscle mass during caloric restriction? • r/AdvancedFitness
- kcals burnt per week/ https://www.marksdailyapple.com/why...e-than-4000-calories-a-week-through-exercise/



Not necessarily a huge fan of Mark’sDA but those are some good words, for a natural trainee of course

3:1 sounds right. That's the minimum I try to aim for. Like I mentioned before, 2:1 is bare minimum. With the OP having 1.7:1, that's definitely why there are issues. With 300g protein that'd put him at 900g carbs. Sounds like a lot, and it is, but with the level of training he is doing, honestly, that sounds right to me. I mean, like I said before, I eat 600-700 easily and I only train 3x a week with brief 45-60 minute workouts that are never to failure. With these many carbs I do not get energy problems from workouts. I get around 200-250g protein lately, so that puts my squarely at about 3:1 carb:protein.

It is true you don't need that much protein *for muscle synthesis*. I'm aware of the Bayesian BB post you are referring to. However, there's one key thing they don't consider and this is why I eat high protein:

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

Also, I eat high protein simply because protein is satiating. So is fat, but I'm trying to eat low fat, so the only way I can get satiated is protein. Carbs aren't very satiating for me. I use them for the energy, not the satiation.

Eating high protein is perfectly fine, *as long as your carb:protein intake is close to 3:1*.

The way I look at it, eating high carb will only make you fat if you eat more than you need. I eat until I have enough energy, then I stop. If you continue to eat after you have optimal energy, thats when it will make you fat. I did gain some fat starting off on RP, but thats because I ate high carb AND high fat (I craved fats heavily started off on Peat, because I was used to them). I seem to be on damage control mode now that I've dropped fats significantly.

Lot's of good info here. Thank you guys. So with keeping lean in mind, do you think it would be wise to continue to taper up the carbs week to week to get to that 3:1 ratio? Or just drop the hammer and add another 300g carbs? Or possibly drop protein a bit? Keep in mind, I've put on about 2.5 pounds a week the past 8 weeks since the show.

 

[Jpkoepse]

You don't need to drink more carbs necessarily, I just do so because it's convenient and a lot easier than eating sometimes. I would recommend to at least try out adding more sugar in general though (from fruit, syrup, whatever), and see how it works for you, but I'd certainly not tell you what to do - just a suggestion. If what you're doing is working, then no need to change it.

Calcium Requirement Or Ca-P Ratio?

RP: Probably the long-range optimum is something like that in milk, somewhere between a ratio of 1:1 up to maybe even 2:1 in favor of calcium to phosphorus.

RP: And if your fructose intake is high, then you don't have to worry too much about the exact ratio of calcium to phosphorus, but the ratio in milk 1.3:1 is very close to a very safe ratio. But you can easily get by with two or three times as much phosphate as calcium, especially if your sugar intake is good. And then if you're getting plenty of salt and calcium, you don't have to worry much about the other two calcium and minerals.

Disclaimer - I'm assuming the guy who posted this got this from RP, so I haven't verified that above quotes are indeed from RP. That said, there was another post I read the other day (i'll post it if I can) that shows that even early (1950s) bodybuilders realize the importance of Calcium:Phosphorus ratios and also tended to coach BB'ers to eat a 2:1 ratio.

It does seem like RP says that higher Phosphorus ratios can be better tolerated if sugar intake is good though, but I'd rather err on the side of caution, especially when I'm in the healing phase.

That is cool. It's interesting how the old school bodybuilders seemed to have much better approach to diet than modern BB'ers in many aspects. Looking at Arnold's diet for example.. looks very "Peaty"... compared to BB'ers nowadays that crush ridiculous amounts of starch, no sugars, jars of peanut butter etc...

 

[Jpkoepse]

I know supplements are usually not the preferred way of getting things in.. but has anyone heard of or used "Magnebind 300" by "Nephrotech"? Advertised as a Phosphate Binder. Ingredients are 250mg Calcium Carb, 300mg Magnesium Carb.

Nephro-Tech, Inc., MagneBind 300, A Non-Presciption Phosphate Binder that Contains Magnesium and Calcium Carbonate

 

[Cirion]

That is cool. It's interesting how the old school bodybuilders seemed to have much better approach to diet than modern BB'ers in many aspects. Looking at Arnold's diet for example.. looks very "Peaty"... compared to BB'ers nowadays that crush ridiculous amounts of starch, no sugars, jars of peanut butter etc...

Yeah it's highly unfortunate. RP would say a high starch high fat (especially a high PUFA diet - lots of peanut butter) is pretty much the quickest way to trash your health. I think part of this is because it's also the quickest way to gain weight - but the problem is, as you more than likely know, just gaining weight is not a good thing, if its all fat, lol.

 

[Jpkoepse]

Yeah it's highly unfortunate. RP would say a high starch high fat (especially a high PUFA diet - lots of peanut butter) is pretty much the quickest way to trash your health.

It really makes sense if you look at modern bodybuilders nowadays... Very bloated midsections (I'm guessing endotoxin, digestion, gut related), tons of thyroid use to get lean (partially due to wrecked metabolism), and most importantly.. health issues later in career or after.

 

[Cirion]

It really makes sense if you look at modern bodybuilders nowadays... Very bloated midsections (I'm guessing endotoxin, digestion, gut related), tons of thyroid use to get lean (partially due to wrecked metabolism), and most importantly.. health issues later in career or after.

Interesting point. I hadn't thought that it might be too much PUFA and other such things that cause the bloat, and not necessarily the AAS/TRT directly causing that.

Yes, a poor diet coupled with overtraining is a recipe for disaster. I know one guy who is not much older than me and he has had many problems and had to get shoulder surgery etc and blames it on "getting old". I happen to know he definitely loves his peanut butter, he'd talk about putting huge scoops of it in his mass gainer shakes. True as you age you have to be more careful, but using age as an excuse is not a good excuse. In fact I would highly recommend all elderly people to lift - just carefully - as it's been shown to strengthen and add bone mass, as well as of course muscle mass, two of which tend to degrade with age with neglect. And the high calcium:phosphorus ratio recommended will help against osteoporosis in old age.

I wanna be that grandpa that can still bench at least 2-3 plates and squat/deadlift 3-4 plates, haha.

I have a strong pet peeve against people saying they're "just getting old" A lot of my relatives say this, and many are in poor health in just there 60s. 60 really isn't that old when you consider really healthy people can live as long as 100-120, many of whom have better quality of life than some of my 60-70 year old relatives. It is in fact my plethora of unhealthy relatives that motivated me to be healthy, as I told myself "I don't want to be that way when I'm 60".

I've felt bad for much of my 20s and its certainly not because I'm "getting old" lol.

 

[Cirion]

Lot's of good info here. Thank you guys. So with keeping lean in mind, do you think it would be wise to continue to taper up the carbs week to week to get to that 3:1 ratio? Or just drop the hammer and add another 300g carbs? Or possibly drop protein a bit? Keep in mind, I've put on about 2.5 pounds a week the past 8 weeks since the show.

Well, I can't coach you too much on reverse dieting as I do not have much knowledge here. What I will say is that (as you know) the low bodyfat achieved in competing is not healthy, and the body will necessarily increase bodyfat to a certain degree to get where it wants to be after. So that said, maybe one option is to wait until things start to settle out weight wise then slowly increase a bit again. Really, just experiment, tweak and change. But I still do think eventually that carb:protein ratio should hit 3:1. Maybe not overnight, but it should be the goal. You could maybe drop protein, if you think you can feel satisfied with less. But even if you do that, I still feel like 500g carb is not enough, so you may achieve the 2-3:1 ratio this way, but it won't be optimal. I personally think still that 500g C probably isn't enough for your exertion levels though, ratio or not.

 

[benaoao]

Thank you for sharing those @Cirion

It seems indeed that more phosphorus can be eaten in euthyroids or people with a proper metabolism as seen by Weston Price in non westernized people.

Like you said, if healing or repairing years of calcification a switch towards more calcium (or actually less phosphorus) can be a game changer. With proper ADEK vitamins of course.

Interesting notes about golden era v modern guts. Never thought PUFAs would be causing the “insulin+GH” bloat I thought an excess of starch was THE root cause since many casual lifters (natural) report being bloated when eating high starch. I think the issue is a damaging of the gut lining prior to the eventual bloating reaction. I’d need to dig up some work on enzymes produced from the endothelial lining of the intestine. There again, PUFAs damaging lead people to blame the wrong guy (although I only stick to Thai rice, potatoes, yams, carrots and bananas)

 

[Cirion]

Thank you for sharing those @Cirion

It seems indeed that more phosphorus can be eaten in euthyroids or people with a proper metabolism as seen by Weston Price in non westernized people.

Like you said, if healing or repairing years of calcification a switch towards more calcium (or actually less phosphorus) can be a game changer. With proper ADEK vitamins of course.

Interesting notes about golden era v modern guts. Never thought PUFAs would be causing the “insulin+GH” bloat I thought an excess of starch was THE root cause since many casual lifters (natural) report being bloated when eating high starch. I think the issue is a damaging of the gut lining prior to the eventual bloating reaction. I’d need to dig up some work on enzymes produced from the endothelial lining of the intestine. There again, PUFAs damaging lead people to blame the wrong guy (although I only stick to Thai rice, potatoes, yams, carrots and bananas)

Sure, as I learn more, I am more than happy to share my experiences and what I have learned, just paying it forward for RP and others who have helped me out from this forum. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, lol, but even still, more and more pieces of the puzzle come together as I read posts here every day.

Currently trying to put together the optimal "meta" diet - at least for me, and I believe I found one piece of the puzzle today...

I have come to realize that excess dietary Iron is a problem (for me at least), and found today that Maple syrup (manganese, which is an antagonist to iron apparently) seems to really help - I felt pretty good after eating cottage cheese w/ a bunch of syrup. I'm all but certain I'm chronically high in Iron due to my love of beef.

 

[Jpkoepse]

Sure, as I learn more, I am more than happy to share my experiences and what I have learned, just paying it forward for RP and others who have helped me out from this forum. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know, lol, but even still, more and more pieces of the puzzle come together as I read posts here every day.

Currently trying to put together the optimal "meta" diet - at least for me, and I believe I found one piece of the puzzle today...

I have come to realize that excess dietary Iron is a problem (for me at least), and found today that Maple syrup (manganese, which is an antagonist to iron apparently) seems to really help - I felt pretty good after eating cottage cheese w/ a bunch of syrup. I'm all but certain I'm chronically high in Iron due to my love of beef.

How did you come to this conclusion? I'm loving beef right now and occasionally have it twice a day (About 12 ounces total). What have you noticed with too much? Latest bloodwork for me showed high TBIC but everything else showed normal. Didn't know what to make of that.

Iron and TIBC Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC) 453 HIGH 250-450 ug/dL
UIBC 317 111-343 ug/dL
Iron 136 38-169 ug/dL
Iron Saturation 30 15-55 %

 

[Cirion]

How did you come to this conclusion? I'm loving beef right now and occasionally have it twice a day (About 12 ounces total). What have you noticed with too much? Latest bloodwork for me showed high TBIC but everything else showed normal. Didn't know what to make of that.

Iron and TIBC Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC) 453 HIGH 250-450 ug/dL
UIBC 317 111-343 ug/dL
Iron 136 38-169 ug/dL
Iron Saturation 30 15-55 %

I was noticing I would get some weird fatigues after lunch which was usually beef. Couldn't quite shake the feeling even with sugar/carbs. I was having even more than you (16 oz a day).

That and maple syrup just makes me feel really good when I eat it, like an instant boost in mood, much like the feeling I get after eating some chocolate.

I probably should do a blood test to be sure, but way I see it, if it makes me feel good, I'm gonna keep doing it lol :) Iron is talked about a lot on this forums, many people have a problem with it. Part of the problem is that so many western foods are fortified with iron.

 

[Jpkoepse]

I was noticing I would get some weird fatigues after lunch which was usually beef. Couldn't quite shake the feeling even with sugar/carbs.

That and maple syrup just makes me feel really good when I eat it, like an instant boost in mood, much like the feeling I get after eating some chocolate.

I probably should do a blood test to be sure, but way I see it, if it makes me feel good, I'm gonna keep doing it lol :)

Of course! I'm gonna pay closer attention now with the beef meals

 

[Cirion]

I also just realized that one of my staple sugar carbs are grapes - and unfortunately they are somewhat high in Iron. This might explain why sometimes grapes don't give me really good energy but leave a weird slight fatigued feeling... sad... maybe I'll have to swap grapes for another fruit

 

[danishispsychic]

Epsom salt baths? Red Light? Nacent Iodine? Salt? Coffee ?