Damaging Effects Of High Intensity Exercise

[Jpkoepse]

Been reading this forum for months now and it has made drastic improvements in my life. Time for my first post/question:

I'm a competitive bodybuilder at a somewhat high level. In order to gain the muscle mass needed, I obviously have to train with a very high intensity. I realize this isn't PEAT friendly but I'm curious as to ways to mitigate the negatives.

Over the years, I've noticed a steady decrease in libido and energy throughout the day. Thyroid levels are normal and Testosterone is always very high due to TRT+ some other anabolics. I just started measuring temperatures and noticed they vary a lot but usually between 96.2 and 96.4. Never been above 97.4.

I'm very lean, I'd guess 6.5 percent body fat eating 7 meals a day. All peat approved. 500g carbs, 70g fat, 305 g protein. 5ft 7, 220lbs. I'm coming out of a show so I've put on about 2lbs every week for past 7 weeks. So I'm in a caloric surplus.

Digestion feels great. Carrot salad every day. AC 3 times a week.

So my theory is that the workout intensity is reaking havoc on adrenals? I've been taking ionisine, theanine, glycine during workout which makes the workout feel much less stressful but it still does nothing to body temps, grogginess, libido. Any ideas or theories of how to manage this better?

One last note, adrenal cortex supp in AM does seem to improve me just a bit in regards to temp and energy.

 

[benaoao]

The root issue is the Cortisol-adrenal relationship as you know, and I don’t think I need to dig up some studies on how high intensity training leads to an acute Cortisol elevation.

So you’re already high in Cortisol just going by the very high lean muscle mass / low fat mass. Definitely wreaking havoc on adrenal/thyroid. It’s one big loop. Thyroid levels being normal doesn’t mean much anyway, have you tested the T3/reverseT3 ratio?

Keep in mind glucocorticoids and mineralocorticoids balances are significantly impaired when using AAS, even TRT. T hasn’t consistently been shown to lower C, rather to get the T/C balance to a more desirable ratio. Too many mechanisms at hand to list.

Back to Cortisol - your Cortisol is still very high when you get closer to failure / get to higher intensity training. So training wise I’d at least try to spike it less, and get even more carbs upon training. 10-15 kcal/min is the energy you’re consuming when you’re training - keep this in mind. An intuitive solution would be to stay in the 50-60% zone which activates the muscle more than enough, compared to a more intense effort. It’s what most doctors recommend anyway. Stay very far from failure. More carbs and probably less protein. Stay on TRT for a bit. Top bodybuilders / physique competitors go higher in bodyfat during the off season which is desirable physiologically (Buendia comes to mind)

Also find some stress reducing strategies. Meditation, yoga, biking around. This will help.

 

[Tarmander]

I am curious how you do in non-show/work out conditions. How do you feel putting in a day of yard work?

Yeah, high intensity is causing damage(Isn't that the point?), but what are you getting out of it? Have you had a lot of success and satisfaction from the high intensity stuff? I don't think there is really any substance that is going to negate what you are doing, but maybe after reading Peat and the forums for awhile, you have a better idea of the cost/benefit of these practices?

 

[Jpkoepse]

The root issue is the Cortisol-adrenal relationship as you know, and I don’t think I need to dig up some studies on how high intensity training leads to an acute Cortisol elevation.

So you’re already high in Cortisol just going by the very high lean muscle mass / low fat mass. Definitely wreaking havoc on adrenal/thyroid. It’s one big loop. Thyroid levels being normal doesn’t mean much anyway, have you tested the T3/reverseT3 ratio?

Keep in mind glucocorticoids and mineralocorticoids balances are significantly impaired when using AAS, even TRT. T hasn’t consistently been shown to lower C, rather to get the T/C balance to a more desirable ratio. Too many mechanisms at hand to list.

Back to Cortisol - your Cortisol is still very high when you get closer to failure / get to higher intensity training. So training wise I’d at least try to spike it less, and get even more carbs upon training. 10-15 kcal/min is the energy you’re consuming when you’re training - keep this in mind. An intuitive solution would be to stay in the 50-60% zone which activates the muscle more than enough, compared to a more intense effort. It’s what most doctors recommend anyway. Stay very far from failure. More carbs and probably less protein. Stay on TRT for a bit. Top bodybuilders / physique competitors go higher in bodyfat during the off season which is desirable physiologically (Buendia comes to mind)

Also find some stress reducing strategies. Meditation, yoga, biking around. This will help.

That sounds correct. I've also thought about backing down the frequency of training from 5 to 4 days a week. So are you saying that being this lean even in a caloric surplus and putting on weight slowly is still "stressful on the body"? I was thinking it would only be the case if I was in a caloric deficit.

On another note, I'd say I feel the BEST around the time I'm working out and right after. I'm assuming bc I'm running on stress hormones? Could it be that I'm actually very low in Cortisol when not training? If so, what is mechanism behind that? Stressful workout depletes Cortisol/Progestetone?

I'll get more bloodwork done this week. Last time was precontest (TSH and T3 only thyroid related markers tested). Both appeared normal. I'll get full thyroid panel next.

Real TRT starts in a week so that will be helpful as well as you said.

I appreciate your detailed response!

 

[Jpkoepse]

I am curious how you do in non-show/work out conditions. How do you feel putting in a day of yard work?

Yeah, high intensity is causing damage(Isn't that the point?), but what are you getting out of it? Have you had a lot of success and satisfaction from the high intensity stuff? I don't think there is really any substance that is going to negate what you are doing, but maybe after reading Peat and the forums for awhile, you have a better idea of the cost/benefit of these practices?

I understand what you're getting at. TBH I don't do terrible at day to day things yet as I'm not as big as some of the biggest guys yet. I also think paying a little closer attention to health, flexibility, water retention etc makes life more normal. Having said that, I'm not going to kid myself and say everything is just the same as a person who isn't as muscular.

I genuinely have a passion for bodybuilding and seeing what the human body is capable which is strange to most... and I'm somewhat genetically blessed.. so the cost is worth it to me unfortunately

 

[Cirion]

Honestly my first thought: Not enough carbs. I eat 600-800g carbs a day (even on days I'm mostly sedentary) and I barely train at all compared to you. Granted, I'm a recovering hypo-thyroid individual, which requires me to eat extra carbs. But still, if you're shredded @ 220 lb, and train super hard, 500g carb just seems like a pittance. No wonder you're fatigued all the time! Your carb:protein ratio should ideally be AT LEAST 2:1, and I don't feel good unless it's at least3:1 or 4:1.

500:300 puts you at 1.667 which is very low (imo).

Protein drops your blood sugar, and the carbs are needed to get them back up. High protein, along with intense training, and not enough carbs to bring sugar levels back up = fatigue and other issues.

Being lean and/or muscular doesn't directly imply hypo-thyroid symptoms. The problem is when it's coupled with training that's too intense and not enough fuel (calories) to support it. In fact I'd argue more muscle is beneficial to thyroid as it lets your body store more glucose, and thus last longer without refueling. (My opinion, not sure of RP's stance on this)

 

[EIRE24]

Honestly my first thought: Not enough carbs. I eat 600-800g carbs a day (even on days I'm mostly sedentary) and I barely train at all compared to you. Granted, I'm a recovering hypo-thyroid individual, which requires me to eat extra carbs. But still, if you're shredded @ 220 lb, and train super hard, 500g carb just seems like a pittance. No wonder you're fatigued all the time! Your carb:protein ratio should ideally be AT LEAST 2:1, and I don't feel good unless it's at least3:1 or 4:1.

500:300 puts you at 1.667 which is very low (imo).

Protein drops your blood sugar, and the carbs are needed to get them back up. High protein, along with intense training, and not enough carbs to bring sugar levels back up = fatigue and other issues.

Being lean and/or muscular doesn't directly imply hypo-thyroid symptoms. The problem is when it's coupled with training that's too intense and not enough fuel (calories) to support it. In fact I'd argue more muscle is beneficial to thyroid as it lets your body store more glucose, and thus last longer without refueling. (My opinion, not sure of RP's stance on this)

Ya I'd agree here and I'd be interested to know what the diet is like that's making up the calories.

 

[Cirion]

Ya I'd agree here and I'd be interested to know what the diet is like that's making up the calories.

I think a lot of people are too scared to increase carbs for fear of gaining fat. The metabolism is a complicated thing, I've learned, since researching RP, and others, and through my own experience.

In fact, I would say you're causing more harm in the long run by always being in a fatigued state, and chronically elevating cortisol, and possibly leaving gains on the table as well as maybe even gaining more bodyfat than you need to while in the off season, since its cortisol that tends to activate fat gaining mechanisms in the body, and increasing carbs to lower cortisol will help close those fat gaining mechanisms. Since your fat intake is relatively low, you're much less likely to have those carbs be stored as fat especially since a good chunk of them are burned right off the bat by simply working out intensely. In a high cortisol situation, any carbs not burned (could) potentially be stored as fat. When the body is healthier, low cortisol, my understanding is it tends to burn off a good portion of excess carbs.

 

[MrThyroid]

I understand what you're getting at. TBH I don't do terrible at day to day things yet as I'm not as big as some of the biggest guys yet. I also think paying a little closer attention to health, flexibility, water retention etc makes life more normal. Having said that, I'm not going to kid myself and say everything is just the same as a person who isn't as muscular.

I genuinely have a passion for bodybuilding and seeing what the human body is capable which is strange to most... and I'm somewhat genetically blessed.. so the cost is worth it to me unfortunately

how you are genetically blessed if you rely on AAS that doesnt make sence and also no wonder if you run TRT and train 5 to 7 times a week high intensity training.
If you were natty that would be never possible you know why, because your body would warn you long time ago to take rest or take cheat day or what ever. BUT with AAS you can go over this limit and you dont recognize your bodys signal.
What you know need is alot of vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, anti oxidants etc to repair the dmg.
Do you have a typicial bb bloated belly ?

 

[Luckytype]

how you are genetically blessed if you rely on AAS that doesnt make sence and also no wonder if you run TRT and train 5 to 7 times a week high intensity training.
If you were natty that would be never possible you know why, because your body would warn you long time ago to take rest or take cheat day or what ever. BUT with AAS you can go over this limit and you dont recognize your bodys signal.
What you know need is alot of vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, anti oxidants etc to repair the dmg.
Do you have a typicial bb bloated belly ?

There is a difference here.

Because there are guys that have garbage genetics that jump on gear and still cant build a quality physique or even get muscular balance to have an attractive look. Gear doesnt mean your genetics are deleted. It enhances what you have to various degrees.

I was natural lifter and my body just kept going as my health faded.

Stress hormones will keep some people going. While I carry nowhere near what OP carries I could literally destroy myself 6 days a week for 3 hours and my own stress hormones would keep me going. Mind you, I was doing the volume someone on a large amount of anabolics would be doing. I couldve kept going too after years of it. I chose to stop because I was getting so cold while not training.

Also, just because people use anabolic support doesnt mean their body is under less overall stress.

Keep in mind growing muscle is pretty much an adaptation to an environmental stress.

 

[MrThyroid]

Also, just because people use anabolic support doesnt mean their body is under less overall stress.

that what i tried to say ppl who take AAS have much higher stress, than natties.
If you re body is not able to build huge muscle naturally then it would have it reason. If you ignore that and take AAS this can go maybe for 2, 5, 10 or also 40 years well but then it will take it revenge and punish you.
Also if you train naturally its a huge unnormal burden for the body you have to supplement you never can get everything from normal food, if you want keep going or even get better. Ressistance training is extremely stressful particularly for your CNS you need to repair you need to balance it you have to cycle it. After the dmg by training the repair must come.
For e. g. what i find out that if i do heavy weight lifting i need to eat alot of eggs, minced beef, organ meats etc which contains alot of lecitithin and cholesterol in order to repair my brain or CNS or just take sauna to relax to calm down. Also i noticed that Glutathione helps alot or NAC.
If you ignore those points as natty you will loose over time your mind and get falling in whole which i ve learned the hard way.

 

[Jpkoepse]

I think a lot of people are too scared to increase carbs for fear of gaining fat. The metabolism is a complicated thing, I've learned, since researching RP, and others, and through my own experience.

In fact, I would say you're causing more harm in the long run by always being in a fatigued state, and chronically elevating cortisol, and possibly leaving gains on the table as well as maybe even gaining more bodyfat than you need to while in the off season, since its cortisol that tends to activate fat gaining mechanisms in the body, and increasing carbs to lower cortisol will help close those fat gaining mechanisms. Since your fat intake is relatively low, you're much less likely to have those carbs be stored as fat especially since a good chunk of them are burned right off the bat by simply working out intensely. In a high cortisol situation, any carbs not burned (could) potentially be stored as fat. When the body is healthier, low cortisol, my understanding is it tends to burn off a good portion of excess carbs.

You're absolutely right. In the "BB world".. it is common to "reverse diet" to prevent a ton of fat gain. So typically one would add about 200g carbs and maybe 20 g fat right out of show... and then week to week smaller increases based on the amount of weight gained that week.

My diet is as follows:

Meal 1: Half cup oats, Cup of Milk, Tbsp Brown Sugar, 1 scoop whey
Meal 2: 5 ounces chicken, 8 grams Coconut Oil, 250 white rice(70 Carbs), 1 Tangerine
Meal 3: 1 Fat Free Greek Yogurt, Half Cup Raw Carrot Salad, 1 Tangerine
Meal 4: 5 Ounces Lean Beef, 275 Roasted Red Potato(58 Carbs), 1 Tangerine
Meal 5 (Intra-workout): 25g Whey, 35g Maltodextrin + BCAA, Tyrosine, Glycine, Taurine
Meal 6: 1 Bagel, 3 Rice Cakes with Rasberry and Orange Marmalade Jam, 25g Whey
Meal 7: 2 Eggs, 2 slices of bread, Slice of Cheese, Turkey bacon and 1.5 Cups of Ice Cream

Perhaps I'll try adding in at least another 100g carbs here so0n. Probably keep fat same. See any issues with dietary choices?

 

[Jpkoepse]

how you are genetically blessed if you rely on AAS that doesnt make sence and also no wonder if you run TRT and train 5 to 7 times a week high intensity training.
If you were natty that would be never possible you know why, because your body would warn you long time ago to take rest or take cheat day or what ever. BUT with AAS you can go over this limit and you dont recognize your bodys signal.
What you know need is alot of vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, anti oxidants etc to repair the dmg.
Do you have a typicial bb bloated belly ?

Surely, you don't think that top bodybuilders who weigh upwards of 260lb extremely lean are natural. Bad genetics plus AAS does not equal good bodybuilder no matter the diet and supplementation.

Having said that, I realize that those views aren't shared or realized by most people. It's a weird niche "sport"

No belly on me. I hate that look just as many others do. Judging needs to be done better to eliminate it from the "sport".

 

[Jpkoepse]

There is a difference here.

Because there are guys that have garbage genetics that jump on gear and still cant build a quality physique or even get muscular balance to have an attractive look. Gear doesnt mean your genetics are deleted. It enhances what you have to various degrees.

I was natural lifter and my body just kept going as my health faded.

Stress hormones will keep some people going. While I carry nowhere near what OP carries I could literally destroy myself 6 days a week for 3 hours and my own stress hormones would keep me going. Mind you, I was doing the volume someone on a large amount of anabolics would be doing. I couldve kept going too after years of it. I chose to stop because I was getting so cold while not training.

Also, just because people use anabolic support doesnt mean their body is under less overall stress.

Keep in mind growing muscle is pretty much an adaptation to an environmental stress.

Well said!

 

[MrThyroid]

Surely, you don't think that top bodybuilders who weigh upwards of 260lb extremely lean are natural. Bad genetics plus AAS does not equal good bodybuilder no matter the diet and supplementation.

Having said that, I realize that those views aren't shared or realized by most people. It's a weird niche "sport"

No belly on me. I hate that look just as many others do. Judging needs to be done better to eliminate it from the "sport".

thats good if no belly bloated it means no gut inflammation.
Btw looks good keep the work up if it satisfy you !

 

[Jpkoepse]

thats good if no belly bloated it means no gut inflammation.
Btw looks good keep the work up if it satisfy you !

Thanks bud.

I think a lot of people are too scared to increase carbs for fear of gaining fat. The metabolism is a complicated thing, I've learned, since researching RP, and others, and through my own experience.

In fact, I would say you're causing more harm in the long run by always being in a fatigued state, and chronically elevating cortisol, and possibly leaving gains on the table as well as maybe even gaining more bodyfat than you need to while in the off season, since its cortisol that tends to activate fat gaining mechanisms in the body, and increasing carbs to lower cortisol will help close those fat gaining mechanisms. Since your fat intake is relatively low, you're much less likely to have those carbs be stored as fat especially since a good chunk of them are burned right off the bat by simply working out intensely. In a high cortisol situation, any carbs not burned (could) potentially be stored as fat. When the body is healthier, low cortisol, my understanding is it tends to burn off a good portion of excess carbs.

Would you recommend keep starch quantities the same, and increasing carbs via sugar? I don't have any digestive issues with starches that I'm aware of.

 

[Cirion]

Would you recommend keep starch quantities the same, and increasing carbs via sugar? I don't have any digestive issues with starches that I'm aware of.

I guess if you feel good on starches it's not bad. Still, pretty sure that Ray Peat tends to prefer sugar over starches (on occasion he has said a heavily cooked potato can be OK for example though). Personally, I seem to get better energy from sugar and prefer it over starch. Up to you if you want to experiment with this.

 

[Luckytype]

Thanks bud.



Would you recommend keep starch quantities the same, and increasing carbs via sugar? I don't have any digestive issues with starches that I'm aware of.

The argument in Peat world is the endotoxin and "estrogen conversion" from starches. Im assuming youre using a little bit of an AI so even if that were the case in every other person the only thing would be your mechanical digestion and then motility and elimination. If youre good there, youre good. And if you feel better on it, then keep it.

 

[cyclops]

Top bodybuilders / physique competitors go higher in bodyfat during the off season which is desirable physiologically (Buendia comes to mind)

Obviously too high bodyfat is not desirable physiologically...what do you think is optimal?

 

[Jpkoepse]

Obviously too high bodyfat is not desirable physiologically...what do you think is optimal?

If I may answer this...

Most bodybuilders would prefer to be extremely lean year round if it was possible but it really isn't if you want to live some semblance of a normal life and be somewhat healthy.

It's usually a side effect of one or more of these things:

1) Aggressive "off-season diet" pushing the calories very high in pursuit of more muscle mass
2) Simply binge eating and not really paying attention to what they are eating... a "diet break" if you will
3) Coming off heavy AAS usage will usually soften the physique up which is what most do soon after a show
4) Use of water retaining and/or aromatizing compounds not used or used lightly in competition prep (Insulin, GH, Anadrol)

I will say though, having a little more bodyfat is MUCH easier/safer on the joints when lifting heavy.