Damaged Gut, High Serotonin, Standard protocols dont work

johnysummer

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Hello, I am experiencing very high serotonin symptoms. I have very low sex drive, brain fog, no drive, I take a dump many times in a day and I have a very white coated tongue at the back of the tongue with cuts. I am sure this is my main problem now, because yesterday I did a test. I reduced my meal frequency (I waited until I was hungry until my next meal) and I implemented 2 times the carrot salad. I also took ACV with my protein meals and 2-3 tsp of coconut oil through the day. My libido was extraordinary the whole day. I got like 4-5 random boners and I am not used to that and I even ate less calories than usual and I didnt take a dump the whole day and finally at night I slept 9 hours easily (I hadnt done that since a long time). Today tho I feel like crap. I tried to eat zero starch at lunch and only ate beef and some apple and a glasss of juice. I couldnt digest the meat by any means and I got hot flushes through the day. When I ate my carrot salad in the afternoon I was better. Also mushrooms dont work for me, I think they even make my stomach worse. I am really confused. Although even today my face is less puffy and my tongue is a little less white I think. Did I cause some endotoxin to die yesterday and I experience high serotonin symptoms today ? This is really frustrating. I think I have very slow protein digestion. I cant explain not being able to digest the beef.
 
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karw

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For starts, you definitely have candida and IBS/IBD related symptoms. You need to work with somebody who can help you figure out your digestive issues. You can go on a diet low in FODMAP that could help ease the symptoms. I would also consider looking into foods that you cannot tolerate such as foods high in histamine, salicylates, oxalates, phytates, lectins. Eat small meals and observe everything you eat. Something you eat today you may feel tomorrow.
 
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johnysummer

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For starts, you definitely have candida and IBS/IBD related symptoms. You need to work with somebody who can help you figure out your digestive issues. You can go on a diet low in FODMAP that could help ease the symptoms. I would also consider looking into foods that you cannot tolerate such as foods high in histamine, salicylates, oxalates, phytates, lectins. Eat small meals and observe everything you eat. Something you eat today you may feel tomorrow.
Thanks for the reply. I visited a doctor today to get tested for digestive enzymes and liver. He asked if I wanted him to prescribe rifaximin and I was not sure about that, but I see now it has helped people with SIBO. I dont think there is a specific food that causes major problems for me. I seem to find it hard to digest milk and especially A1 cow milk gives me rough time. I stopped dairy for now and I feel a bit ligher (I am supplementing egg shel for calcium). My diet is mainly peaty foods but I think a made a big mistake feeding the bacteria as I ate too frequent meals the past months. The biggest concern of mine is the very low sex drive which now I am sure is caused by high serotonin as I was shocked how horny I was with just one day of consuming many natural antibiotics. It was epic.
 

karw

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That could sound like SIBO. You should do a SIBO lactulose breath test to be sure. Also, be cautious about antibiotics which kills good bacteria too which can have a positive effect on your neurosteroids which affect libido. Make sure to take high-quality probiotics.

This may be unrelated but interesting: My (IHP) Full Sexual Recovery from PFS - Story and Regimen


 
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johnysummer

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That could sound like SIBO. You should do a SIBO lactulose breath test to be sure. Also, be cautious about antibiotics which kills good bacteria too which can have a positive effect on your neurosteroids which affect libido. Make sure to take high-quality probiotics.

This may be unrelated but interesting: My (IHP) Full Sexual Recovery from PFS - Story and Regimen


Thanks a lot. I wonder how fast can this problem develop. Is it possible that this is chronic ? I had times where I had severe anxiety, ED, even asthma and generally very high serotonin problems and every time eating less and less frequently seem to help. My metabolism is good tho so if I dont eat I run out of energy eventually and this is a nasty circuit. I will implement activated charcoal at night and start not eating right before bed. Hope this will help.
 

karw

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It seems like a gut-related issue. Besides SIBO, a white-coated tongue is a strong indication of Candida overgrowth, which requires high attention of a specific diet for example; no sugar and fruits, low in grains and lots of vegetables, and natural anti-fungal remedies such as grapefruit extract, oregano oil or allicin. Pharma drugs nystatin or fluconazole.

Before doing all this working with a naturopath or functional doctor that test the gut with gi map, gi effects or comprehensive stool analysis etc. would be the optimal choice instead of guessing.
 
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johnysummer

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I got my recents labs. I have completely corrected my liver enzymes which where high 6 months ago. I have really high prolactin that went from 13 in march to 22 now. I also have very high vit B12 at 942 with ref range 197-800. My vit D levels are 45 and my metabolism is really good (temps/pulses) the whole day. I feel a bit better the last 3 days that I reduced my meal frequency to 3 meals per day. I dont understand how I am getting metabolically better and my prolactin got so high. I heard in a danny roddy podcast I think haidut said that prolactin is a reliable measure for serotonin which I really think is my problem. Any idea why vit B12 migh be so high ? Any help will be really upreciated because things get really frustrating.

Thanks
 

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karw

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What about other hormonal markers? High estrogen can increase prolactin.
Low dopamine also increases prolactin and lowers sex drive.

If you want to test out low dopamine with supplementation:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0oAycWAzUE


I still believe you should correct your gut issue before anything else.

Dopamine and gut

High B12 - liver disease

"An estimated 90% of the body's serotonin is produced in the gut, where it influences gut immunity."

C-IBS - high prolactin

"whereas a decrease in SERT transcription causes an increase in serotonin, which leads to IBS-D (irritable bowel syndrome, diarrhea-predominant)"
 
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johnysummer

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Thanks for the replies!

I dont think this is an estrogen problem. I have low bodyfat and defined muscle tone. I stopped training for the last month so I can adress my health issues. I also supplement vit K2 and D and eggshell calcium. My diet is also very anti-estrogenic so I think its hard for estrogen to be one of my issues. I am also never stressed lately and my life would be good overall if it was not of the digestive issues, brain fog, low motivation and sex drive. Taking things that lower serotonin in brain, like gelatin, tribulus etc help a bit but it is not much. It feels like I have to force it a lot. Also supplementing creatine for dopamine receptor agonism also doesnt seem to help. So I have concluded that my problem is serotonin. I have also scanned my liver and did a hepatitis test because my enzymes where elevated 6 months ago. Absolutely nothing. I am thinking of trying rifaximim or augmentin. I dunno. I really think is a chronic gut problem that drives the rest. Ray has said that high B12 is associated with high endotoxin. I also supplement 100mg thiamine hcl every 2 days.
 

moa

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C-IBS - high prolactin
Interesting.

Cause I had IBS C for years.

And it turned out it was caused by low acetylcholine. I fixed it after years of game fait, with zinc, choline, molybdenum, manganese, some B5.

It seems it was Zinc deficiency the main cause.

But now that i fixed my IBS c I'm left with problems that seem to be high prolactin.

So I don't think high prolactin is causing the IBS C, but what causes IBS C is also causing high prolactin long term.

The mechanism is, in order to increase acetylcholine, the body uses methylation a lot, and this creates molybdenum deficiency (intolerance to sulfur), but most of all, low histamine, and in turn more serotonin is needed to induce gut motility, and that increases prolactin.

Things that increase acetylcholine and histamine will reduce serotonin and prolactin.

Serotonin will reduce acetylcholine and increase prolactin.

Having high acetylcholine is not causing depression, it's just revealing an already existing high prolactin state.

This is my problem when I raised acetylcholine, cause my prolactin stays high and dopamine low, thus the lethargy state, but it's not caused by acetylcholine, it was already there dormant.

I think there is a big misunderstanding of acetylcholine in Ray peat, and I think there's a reason for it.

Peat seem to talk a lot about allergies to supplements and histamine, but this is because he is not an overmethylator.

People who overmethylate just don't have his kind of problems ever, and I think there isa bias on acetylcholine role in the body.

I think acetylcholine is very important, more so than dopamine.

I think the body is using glutathione and serotonin in hibernation.

In aware state it uses acetylcholine and dopamine.

So each time acetylcholine increases, the body lacks GABA until it adapts in order to switch from glutathione to acetylcholine as main excitatory.

The way it upregulates GABA is using nitric oxide, very unpleasant migraines until the brain starts increasing GABA.

And it seems dopamine is not increasing until the acetylcholine/glutamate/GABA balance is obtained.

Even then, seems dopamine is hard to go up.

Serotonin is the most "zombie" of the hormones (compared to dopamine, noradrenalin). So it's very low signal, it needs to be amplified by a lot in order to be able to function, as hibernation state you are not supposed to be active, more like half sleep.

So the body will increase the glutamate and decrease GABA in people with high serotonin, in order to adapt to active daily life.

If people with high serotonin would stay in their homes alone doing nothing, maybe they will become hibernating but normal glutathione levels.

The problem is, when you increase dopamine, and noradrenaline (automatically it comes with it), then those two are much more exciting, or much more "high energy signal", high vibration, whatever you want to call it. So you don't need to amplify it so much, and glutathione must be replaced with acetylcholine, otherwise it creates either panic for noradrenalin dominance or psychosis for dopamine.

So, no, acetylcholine is not opposing dopamine. Acetylcholine is opposing glutathione and it becomes very needed when dopamine levels are high, synergistic with dopamine.

The problem is you can increase acetylcholine and then, if won't increase dopamine as well.

So when your dopamine level are chronically low, cause you've mainly serotonin with glutathione based, then glutathione will amplify the signal of both dopamine and serotonin.

When you switch to acetylcholina, at first you will still have high glutathione and low GABA, so the symptoms you get are maybe headaches, and you still don't feel your low dopamine baseline, because you still have low GABA.

But as the body adjusts, GABA is increased, glutathione is inhibited, you switch completely to acetylcholine, and then you start feeling the low dopamine levels. It does not automatically increase dopamine levels.

So I think that may be caused by chronically high prolactin.

When you increase serotonin, it automatically created a state of perceived high GABA, creating the false impression of low anxiety and calm, but it's temporary and in time this will cause GABA to adjust and you won't be able to switch back to dopamine without feeling depressed.

That's why ssri medication is perceived as causing depression when you stop it, cause someon dopamine level will drop too, but you won't notice it as long as you are low GABA, as long as you take SSRI.

So to resume, there are 2 switches to make, from serotonin to dopamine and from glutathione to acetylcholine.
* High serotonin with high glutathione is the hibernation zombi state of most people
* High dopamine with high acetylcholine is the awaken and high vibration state.

Then you have the okward states, crossed :
* High serotonin with high acetylcholine - this is what causes the depressed state. This is what most people try to run away from.
* High dopamine with high glutathione and low acetylcholine : this is the psychotic and/or anxiety mode. It means you have the wrong energy, too strong and low vibration. If you add acetylcholine it will replace psychosis with headache first but in time it may restore normal awake state.

So, if you increase serotonin while dresse depressed, it will increase glutathione automatically, by decreasing GABA, making you feel less depressed but zombi.

If you decrease acetylcholine while depressed, then this will increase glutathione, making your less depressed but will also keep dopamine low.

If you increase dopamine while keeping both acetylcholine and GABA high, in theory would be the right way to fix depression.

But the ray peat community is not according much credit to acetylcholine. GABA and dopamine are recognized as "good" , and I totally agree with that.

Excepting that if you only increase GABA with dopamine it is not possible without acetylcholine, it will create a temporary state of bliss lunacy and sleepiness but it's not possible to maintain long term and it's not good.

If you increase dopamine without GABA and without acetylcholine is even worse, psychosis, anxiety, etc.

Acetylcholine seems to be a necessary step to increase along with dopamine.

What do you think about this? Is this complete nonsense or maybe this is the good way to approach the acetylcholine problem ?

I think acetylcholine is underrated in peat community, and it may be one of the few missunderstandings in the community that could help create a more perfect understanding of biochemistry.
 

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