DAIRY FREE

[Hasen]

I think you'll find I asked you what you eat, hardly making assumptions. I've asked you about where you get vitamins and minerals from about nineteen times now in fact!

I'm just going by the percentage of protein in the things you've listed. If you are going by Peat then you won't be eating any vegetables except carrots. If you think Peat contradicts himself then you're hardly following Peat anyway. Peat recommends coffee and additional calcium to inhibit the absorption of iron. Like I said, the most important thing in any diet is to make sure you get enough nutrition. From there you can start removing things you deem not needed.

If we just avoided foods because of any bad things in them we wouldn't eat anything at all!

Are you sure you're getting enough calcium? Where do you get it from? Peat advocates a high calcium vs phosphate ratio.

 

[Travis]

Look, I just don't think that a high-meat, high-protein diet logically follows what I have read in his articles. I have no idea what he is saying in interviews, and I am not too concerned about it. I came here because I enjoy his articles on Biology, not to follow a "Ray Peat Diet".

If you must know I have been on a cheese binge lately, and I never said that I was a vegan in this thread. So I eat on an average day:

1/2 pound of raw cheese
1 lb of raw kale
a pineapple
a pear
1/2 pound of dates (with seeds)

This changes monthly of course and I haven't opened my coconut yet, and I might lay off the cheese pretty soon. This is about 60 grams of protein and is likely deficient in nothing.

 

[Hasen]

Look, I just don't think that a high-meat, high-protein diet logically follows what I have read in his articles. I have no idea what he is saying in interviews, and I am not too concerned about it. I came here because I enjoy his articles on Biology, not to follow a "Ray Peat Diet".

Fine...maybe you should have said that from the beginning then...

 

[Hasen]

Look, I just don't think that a high-meat, high-protein diet logically follows what I have read in his articles. I have no idea what he is saying in interviews, and I am not too concerned about it. I came here because I enjoy his articles on Biology, not to follow a "Ray Peat Diet".

If you must know I have been on a cheese binge lately, and I never said that I was a vegan in this thread. So I eat on an average day:

1/2 pound of raw cheese
1 lb of raw kale
a pineapple
a pear
1/2 pound of dates (with seeds)

This changes monthly of course and I haven't opened my coconut yet, and I might lay off the cheese pretty soon. This is about 60 grams of protein and is likely deficient in nothing.

Well that's different if you eat cheese regarding protein, and obviously not vegan as you say. Peat is generally against any kind of polyphenols so I doubt he would approve of kale. Also kale contains just as much iron as beef at 1.7mg per 100g so kind of kills your avoiding iron theory.

But anyway I think our wires have got crossed here since my original response was to Stilgar. When you responded I just assumed you were the original one who posted in this thread saying they were vegan.

 

[Travis]

Heme iron is typically absorbed at a rate of 7-35%. Non-heme iron is typically absorbed at a rate of 2-20%.

What is the difference between heme and non-heme iron?

 

[tara]

You're vegan? How can you be possibly following Peat if you're a vegan....

Personally, I'm quite taken with Peat's leadership in the area of informing people but not demanding that people do what he says.
The only protocol Peat has proposed generally is 'perceive, think, act'.
It seems quite possible to me to be able to get some benefits from learning from Peat while eating a vegan diet, even if he may not consider it the optimal diet for most people.

You get your protein from fruit?? Potato and coconut have 3g of protein per 100g! That's literally nothing.

I don't know the values for other roots and tubers, but 1kg of potatoes can give a good chunk of high quality protein and usable ketoacids. Maybe not a full day's optimal supply, but not trivial.

Not to mention Peat is also generally against vegetables

Not so clear last time I looked - he's definitely recommended broth from boiled green vegetables as a good source of magnesium, and from time to time he's mentioned the potential benefits of some well-cooked greens. He's also spoken favourably about root vegetables, not withstanding his preference for good ripe sweet fruits over starchy foods when available.
My impression is that he does not favour large amounts of raw vegetables other than carrot (rough on the gut, some have goitrogens, excess PUFA) and does not favour getting a large portion of our calories from above-ground veges (excessive PUFAs and antinutrients if eaten in large quantities).

Peat is generally against any kind of polyphenols so I doubt he would approve of kale.

Peat has specifically talked about broth from boiled kale being a good source of Mg. I've not ever seen him recommend raw kale.

Peat definitely recommends Liver and seafood.

+1 (unless one is allergic or intolerant or averse ...)

Eggs also contain PUFAs but Peat recommends them despite that because they contain essential nutrients.

+1 (but not too many if they are not known to be well-fed)

If you think that people should get 100 grams a day ...

Peat has suggest 80-100 g of good quality protein a day for people with low thyroid function. People with stronger metabolism may do better with more. He's talked about feeling better himself with at least 150g.

 

[Hasen]

Personally, I'm quite taken with Peat's leadership in the area of informing people but not demanding that people do what he says.
The only protocol Peat has proposed generally is 'perceive, think, act'.
It seems quite possible to me to be able to get some benefits from learning from Peat while eating a vegan diet, even if he may not consider it the optimal diet for most people.


I don't know the values for other roots and tubers, but 1kg of potatoes can give a good chunk of high quality protein and usable ketoacids. Maybe not a full day's optimal supply, but not trivial.

Yes that's an awful lot to eat every day and would only yield 30g of protein. Peat is certainly against starches so that would be somewhat against his thinking.

Not so clear last time I looked - he's definitely recommended broth from boiled green vegetables as a good source of magnesium, and from time to time he's mentioned the potential benefits of some well-cooked greens. He's also spoken favourably about root vegetables, not withstanding his preference for good ripe sweet fruits over starchy foods when available.
My impression is that he does not favour large amounts of raw vegetables other than carrot (rough on the gut, some have goitrogens, excess PUFA) and does not favour getting a large portion of our calories from above-ground veges (excessive PUFAs and antinutrients if eaten in large quantities).

Ok well that wasn't in the Peat Whisperer so don't know where he's said these. But he's generally against low calorie vegetables as far as I know. Only carrots or occasional potatoes. Mushrooms seem to be good? I saw that somewhere and noticed Danny Roddy buying them.

Peat has suggest 80-100 g of good quality protein a day for people with low thyroid function. People with stronger metabolism may do better with more. He's talked about feeling better himself with at least 150g.

In Hair Like a Fox the recommendation is 1.5g per kg of bodyweight. But obviously that's for men since its a book about MPB. And like you say it would certainly be for those with thyroid issues since the theory of the book is that is what leads to hair loss in the first place.

+1 (unless one is allergic or intolerant or averse ...)

Well yeah that goes for everything recommended on any diet. You can't eat it if you're allergic although allergies tend to be caused by an overall health issue in the first place.

 

[raypeatclips]

@Hasen Start reading and listening to Peat, instead of having just read the Peat Whisperer. I have interviews posted on the YouTube channel linked around my profile if that is any help.

 

[Hasen]

@Hasen Start reading and listening to Peat, instead of having just read the Peat Whisperer. I have interviews posted on the YouTube channel linked around my profile if that is any help.

The Peat whisperer exists because Peat doesn't state everything simply and especially listening to him is rather difficult. His voice and the way he talks is really not easy to listen to. I read his articles no problem though.

If you think anything I said is not correct (or no longer correct) then please show me the source. Otherwise I assume it is still his view.

 

[raypeatclips]

Maybe he doesn't state everything simply because he doesn't want people to create a regimented lifestyle around the things he talks about?

Peat isn't as against starches as people think. It is more he is pro-sugar than anti-starch. He has said many positive things about potatoes, called them an almost perfect food. Said in the absence of sugar starches are good. He has said starches are not incompatible with good health. Do not shy away from experimenting with starches due to the belief Peat is anti-starch.

Peat has recommended the "low calorie vegetables" countless times in the form of kale, leafy greens and spinach. If you have not come across him saying this yet, you really need to read more Peat before deciding what you think his suggestions are.

 

[Hasen]

Maybe he doesn't state everything simply because he doesn't want people to create a regimented lifestyle around the things he talks about?

Peat isn't as against starches as people think. It is more he is pro-sugar than anti-starch. He has said many positive things about potatoes, called them an almost perfect food. Said in the absence of sugar starches are good. He has said starches are not incompatible with good health. Do not shy away from experimenting with starches due to the belief Peat is anti-starch.

Peat has recommended the "low calorie vegetables" countless times in the form of kale, leafy greens and spinach. If you have not come across him saying this yet, you really need to read more Peat before deciding what you think his suggestions are.

Well I thought he was against polyphenols generally? I couldn't find much about kale other than him saying the calcium to phosphate ratio was good. The others I couldn't find. Maybe you found something? Also regarding starches did you find anything to support that or not?

 

[tobieagle]

Well I thought he was against polyphenols generally? I couldn't find much about kale other than him saying the calcium to phosphate ratio was good. The others I couldn't find. Maybe you found something? Also regarding starches did you find anything to support that or not?

Occasional kale or spinach is a good Vitamin K source.

Ray has mentioned several times that potatoes have effectively more protein than shown on the charts because they contain precursors to basic amino acids.
I don't remember the details though, maybe someone has a source.

 

[Giraffe]

His voice and the way he talks is really not easy to listen to.

We have transcribed a lot of his interviews. Maybe you want to check those transcripts.

Audio Interview Transcripts

 

[Ukall]

In Josh Rubin " Milk and calcium" interview RP mentioned that bacterial Infection and inflammation lower lactase enzyme. So if you are already inflamed,
milk probably is not a good idea. RP recommends thyroid or progesterone, these
two restores lactase production by lowering stress hormones.
It takes about 3 weeks for body to get used to milk .
It is a good idea to slowly increase milk if one is dairy intolerant.
RP recommends milk as an optimal food. But one can easily
follow RP's recommendations without milk or dairy.
Maintaining a good Calcium phosphors ratio is the
most important factor when you are avoiding dairy.
Low iron is another advantage of dairy.
Gelatin and most fish are low in iron.

Unfortunately, this answer is focused only on lactose intolerance. But what if a person is allergic/intolerant to the milk's protein (casein A1/A2, whey or both)?
What can a person do in this situation?

For example, in my case, I've been trying reintroducing milk a few days ago.
After 1 year of being dairy free, when I drank milk the other day, I must say I immediately got addicted to it. This is, it seemed my body liked (missed) it a lot. Or, perhaps, it is simply the opioids that makes me addictive to it?
Also, I have been feeling more hunger, which I wasn't feeling for 1 year I would say. But this can mean that my body is saying milk doesn't satisfy 'him' or the exact opposite, that it likes it so much that it wants it more (or again opioids...?)

Nevertheless, there is one thing that makes me kinda disappointed in this experiment: I was also 1 year free of rheum. Since I reintroduced milk, I have been waking up with a lot of it.
In my opinion, this means my body doesn't react well with milk. However, I don't think it is lactose in particular, but the proteins (I may be wrong here and I will try lactose free dairy products)...
Still, the (yellow/green) rheum is there, so my body wants to get rid of something, for sure.

So again, I want to ask, in this case, if the proteins of milk are the real problem, what could be the solution? Avoid dairy products at all costs?

 

[Travis]

Hi

Unfortunately, this answer is focused only on lactose intolerance. But what if a person is allergic/intolerant to the milk's protein (casein A1/A2, whey or both)?
What can a person do in this situation?

For example, in my case, I've been trying reintroducing milk a few days ago.
After 1 year of being dairy free, when I drank milk the other day, I must say I immediately got addicted to it. This is, it seemed my body liked (missed) it a lot. Or, perhaps, it is simply the opioids that makes me addictive to it?
Also, I have been feeling more hunger, which I wasn't feeling for 1 year I would say. But this can mean that my body is saying milk doesn't satisfy 'him' or the exact opposite, that it likes it so much that it wants it more (or again opioids...?)

Nevertheless, there is one thing that makes me kinda sad in this experiment: I was also 1 year free of rheum. Since I reintroduced milk, I have been waking up with a lot of it.
In my opinion, this means that my body doesn't react well with milk. However, I don't think it is lactose in particular, but the proteins (I may be wrong here and I will try lactose free dairy products)...
Still, the (yellow/green) rheum is there, so my body wants to get rid of something, for sure.

So again, I want to ask, in this case, if the proteins of milk are the real problem, what could be the solution? Avoid dairy products at all costs?

Well, goats have different proteins if you would like to try that. Another benefit is that rBGH is not used on goats; it apparently doesn't even work on them.

Homogonized Milk creates smaller and reconfigured fat micelles that may trap other components of the milk, leading to a "Trojan Horse" mechanism where certain substances are protected from digestion. People have speculated that Xanthine Oxidase is one of those chemicals. This is called Oster's Hypothesis: [Xanthine oxidase in homogenized cow's milk and Oster's hypothesis: a review]. - PubMed - NCBI

Goat Milk is never homogonized since its' fat micelles are naturally small enough to prevent separation.

And we have already talked about the Natamycin in pre-sliced and pre-shredded cheese....

 

[Ukall]

Well, goats have different proteins if you would like to try that.

I start reintroducing dairy products with goat's milk, hoping for different results.
I have tried 3% fat, semi skimmed milk, and I don't have access to skimmed goat milk unfortunately, but I guess the results would be the same. I can try sheep's milk, but the proteins are very similar though.
Raw Goat's Milk could be another solution, but there's no way I can get that.
So, I don't know...

Ah!, and hi! xD

 

[Travis]

You could...buy a pet goat!

 

[Ukall]

You could...buy a pet goat!

That would be perfect. But, I live in a flat...

 

[Mittir]

Unfortunately, this answer is focused only on lactose intolerance. But what if a person is allergic/intolerant to the milk's protein (casein A1/A2, whey or both)?
What can a person do in this situation?

For example, in my case, I've been trying reintroducing milk a few days ago.
After 1 year of being dairy free, when I drank milk the other day, I must say I immediately got addicted to it. This is, it seemed my body liked (missed) it a lot. Or, perhaps, it is simply the opioids that makes me addictive to it?
Also, I have been feeling more hunger, which I wasn't feeling for 1 year I would say. But this can mean that my body is saying milk doesn't satisfy 'him' or the exact opposite, that it likes it so much that it wants it more (or again opioids...?)

Nevertheless, there is one thing that makes me kinda disappointed in this experiment: I was also 1 year free of rheum. Since I reintroduced milk, I have been waking up with a lot of it.
In my opinion, this means my body doesn't react well with milk. However, I don't think it is lactose in particular, but the proteins (I may be wrong here and I will try lactose free dairy products)...
Still, the (yellow/green) rheum is there, so my body wants to get rid of something, for sure.

So again, I want to ask, in this case, if the proteins of milk are the real problem, what could be the solution? Avoid dairy products at all costs?

There is an old thread on A1 and A2 debate and RP was asked about it and he thinks
it not an issue. He acknowledged that some people are allergic to milk protein and
that is very very rare.

The things you are experiencing looks like typical digestion problem with milk.
It could be both lactose and casein problem. But, lactose problem is more prevalent
as hypothyroid people have problem breaking down lactose due to injured
and inflamed intestinal wall from overgrowth of bacteria in upper intestine
and overall weakened digestion.

I used to be extremely intolerant to milk. I used to have clogged nose
and joint pain from quarter cup of milk. RP thinks thyroid or progesterone
supplement can improve milk digestion. I was able to drink milk without
any problem after i added thyroid and it took me about 2 months to get to that
stage. I started with quarter cup of milk with meals and slowly increased to
4 cups over 2 months . I still had mild stomach upset for first 3-4 weeks.
Regular carrot salad helped me a lot. If one abstain from milk for a long period
of time then body's production of lactase decreases and one should slowly
introduce milk for smooth transition. RP thinks it takes about 2-3 weeks for
body to get adjusted to new type of foods.

You can also try pure casein, farmer's cheese, strained yogurt or cheese free of allergen
to be sure if your problem is with lactose or protein. I ate a lot of homemade
farmer's cheese ( just adding acid to warm milk then strain to isolate the protein, it is mostly
casein) before i could tolerate milk.

 

[Travis]

I just want to point out that although the "true hormones" like estrogen and progesterone would be found in the milkfat, the "peptide hormones" rBST, rBGH and prolactin would be found in the water phase.