Crocodiles, Lobsters, And Immortality

[barefooter]

I recently learned that some animals like crocodiles, alligators, lobsters, turtles, etc. don't age like other animals, and could theoretically live forever given a perfect environment. I find this extremely interesting, has it ever been discussed by Peat or here on the forum? It seems like a very important thing to understand in the quest for longer lifespans.

I haven't done a lot of research yet, but it seems one common pattern in these animals is that they never stop growing. I was wondering if this continued growth is what prevents them from aging. If imperfect detoxification of things like PUFA, iron, and heavy metals is what tends to limit lifespan, is just getting bigger a simple way around this? These toxic accumulations might never reach a high percentage in tissues if the animal is constantly adding new flesh which is free from such accumulations. Although, I wonder if that means the animal would eventually need to grow exponentially, which would indeed limit its life span eventually :).

 

[Peata]

Growing a lot may not be good for humans though: Taller People Have Higher Mortality From Cancer

 

[haidut]

I recently learned that some animals like crocodiles, alligators, lobsters, turtles, etc. don't age like other animals, and could theoretically live forever given a perfect environment. I find this extremely interesting, has it ever been discussed by Peat or here on the forum? It seems like a very important thing to understand in the quest for longer lifespans.

I haven't done a lot of research yet, but it seems one common pattern in these animals is that they never stop growing. I was wondering if this continued growth is what prevents them from aging. If imperfect detoxification of things like PUFA, iron, and heavy metals is what tends to limit lifespan, is just getting bigger a simple way around this? These toxic accumulations might never reach a high percentage in tissues if the animal is constantly adding new flesh which is free from such accumulations. Although, I wonder if that means the animal would eventually need to grow exponentially, which would indeed limit its life span eventually :).

Human cells can live indefinitely in a petri dish in a medium fully depleted from PUFA. There was a debate back in the middle 20th century between 2 groups. One group believed the cell was immortal by default and only dies when stressed/poisoned. The other group believed there was a programmed limit to cell division and survival. The latter group won the approval of government goons and their theory poisons biology to this day. The so-called Hayflick limit and its intimate connection to telomeres, genetics, and cancer has been ruling the medical establishment for over 50 years. See below.
Hayflick limit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"...Prior to Hayflick's discovery, it was believed that vertebrate cells had an unlimited potential to replicate. Alexis Carrel, a Nobel prize-winning surgeon, had stated "that all cells explanted in culture are immortal, and that the lack of continuous cell replication was due to ignorance on how best to cultivate the cells".[4] He supported this hypothesis by claiming to have cultivated fibroblasts from chicken hearts and to have kept the culture growing for 34 years.[5] This indicated that cells of vertebrates could continue to divide indefinitely in a culture. However, other scientists have been unable to repeat Carrel's result."

Every time I (re)-read this I get so happy and depressed at the same time. Happy, because it suggests life is eternal in the right environment. Depressed, because if this is true and we have been living poisoned lives (probably by government design) then I am not sure civilization has much chance of survival. But, like Ray says, "sometimes it can go the other way".

 

[Dennis]

I would speculate (disclaimer: I'm not a researcher, or biologist) that it would relatively easy to prove if the cells do have an unlimited potential to replicate. Wouldn't there be at least a relatively recent but obscure study study that proves it?

 

[Pointless]

Here's Ray Peat talking about flamingos and their life expectancy:

Hot Flashes, Night Sweats, The Relationship To Stress, KMUD Herb Doctors , 2012

He links it with PUFA depletion.

 

[mayweatherking]

Human cells can live indefinitely in a petri dish in a medium fully depleted from PUFA. There was a debate back in the middle 20th century between 2 groups. One group believed the cell was immortal by default and only dies when stressed/poisoned. The other group believed there was a programmed limit to cell division and survival. The latter group won the approval of government goons and their theory poisons biology to this day. The so-called Hayflick limit and its intimate connection to telomeres, genetics, and cancer has been ruling the medical establishment for over 50 years. See below.
Hayflick limit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"...Prior to Hayflick's discovery, it was believed that vertebrate cells had an unlimited potential to replicate. Alexis Carrel, a Nobel prize-winning surgeon, had stated "that all cells explanted in culture are immortal, and that the lack of continuous cell replication was due to ignorance on how best to cultivate the cells".[4] He supported this hypothesis by claiming to have cultivated fibroblasts from chicken hearts and to have kept the culture growing for 34 years.[5] This indicated that cells of vertebrates could continue to divide indefinitely in a culture. However, other scientists have been unable to repeat Carrel's result."

Every time I (re)-read this I get so happy and depressed at the same time. Happy, because it suggests life is eternal in the right environment. Depressed, because if this is true and we have been living poisoned lives (probably by government design) then I am not sure civilization has much chance of survival. But, like Ray says, "sometimes it can go the other way".

'

what is the true right environment? just no pufa? if that is really it, there has got to be someway to chemically remove pufa from food or something and then eat it. i mean obviously not simple to do, but i'm say theoretically, would that be enough?

 

[Such_Saturation]

You would still make PUFA in your body where there is stress.

 

[haidut]

I would speculate (disclaimer: I'm not a researcher, or biologist) that it would relatively easy to prove if the cells do have an unlimited potential to replicate. Wouldn't there be at least a relatively recent but obscure study study that proves it?

Look at this thread, it has already been proven. Cells in a PUFA-free environment live indefinitely.
Fat-free Cultured Cells: No Need For PUFAS; Where Are The Studies ?

 

[haidut]

'

what is the true right environment? just no pufa? if that is really it, there has got to be someway to chemically remove pufa from food or something and then eat it. i mean obviously not simple to do, but i'm say theoretically, would that be enough?

I supposes it would be low stress (low serotonin), high fun (high dopamine), zero PUFA, and protein that consists of about 80% gelatin. We really don't need any more than about 100mg methionine and 100mg tryptophan daily.

 

[haidut]

You would still make PUFA in your body where there is stress.

Yes, but I thought that the PUFA we make under stress is omega-9 not omega-6, right? If it is omega-9, then it does not have the same hormonal and inflammatory effects omega-6 and omega-3 do.

 

[mayweatherking]

I supposes it would be low stress (low serotonin), high fun (high dopamine), zero PUFA, and protein that consists of about 80% gelatin. We really don't need any more than about 100mg methionine and 100mg tryptophan daily.

i see.. that is pretty incredible actually... damn i wonder if we worked on it for like 100 years, eventually we could figure it out.. similar to how ray peat worked for like 50 years on nutrition and how far he came, we just need to figure out how to get the pufa out of the body completely, or maybe manufacture food or something, i dont know how it would be possible but that would be incredible