Creatine And Muscle Cramps

[dfspcc20]

I've been supplementing creatine (Creapure) ~5g/day for the past 6 weeks or so.

I've noticed several benefits from it, namely with digestion, strength and sex drive.

However, I do seem to get muscle cramps more easily now. That tendency was there before, but seems amplified now.

My exercise routine isn't anything really intense either. For example, I might do some stretches and simple mobility work, then 3x8 squats at ~%50-60 max, some pulldowns or rows, a couple sets of planks, then be done. That 3-4x/week, and usual daily walks and playing with my kids.

I used creatine many years ago and noticed the same thing and stopped. I'm hesitant to stop now because of the benefits mentioned above.

What causes the muscle cramping, and why is it worse with creatine? I know dehydration can be a factor; I remember seeing people at the gym with gallon jugs of water in the past. I don't have any other obvious signs of dehydration.
Electrolytes? I think I get enough sodium, calcium, potassium; probably not enough magnesium, but I'm not sure that would explain it.

Any thoughts?

 

[tara]

Electrolytes? I think I get enough sodium, calcium, potassium; probably not enough magnesium, but I'm not sure that would explain it.

Magnesium is a top candidate. Try getting some more and see if that solves it?

 

[dfspcc20]

Magnesium is a top candidate. Try getting some more and see if that solves it?

I think it's time I finally get a magnesium blood test. I know they're not perfect, but it wouldn't hurt to have at least some data. I've been dabbling with magnesium for years, most recently magnesium bicarbonate and chloride. It doesn't take much before I start to notice twitches, which I guess could mean it's dropping calcium, or maybe intestinal irritation.
Thinking about giving magnesium threonate a try as well.

 

[tara]

I'm struggling with cramps too.
The last couple of months they've been worse than when I was pregnant years ago, and harder to stop.

I'm noticing particular repetitive actions that I do some days that set me up for them in particular places those nights. Using the body in a more balanced way might help.
I'm also wondering if supplementing a few of the larger minerals could be getting the smaller ones out of balance. I usually supplement Mg, and a little Ca and Zn, and pay some attention to getting potassium from fruit and veges.
I've not been eating liver nor supplementing supplementing vitamins lately, so there could be some co-factors missing.
Or general stress and exhaustion making it hard for muscles to relax well.

Got reminded recently that sometimes gelatine can help for cramps, and the last couple of night have gone better since I ate some.

 

[goodandevil]

I've been supplementing creatine (Creapure) ~5g/day for the past 6 weeks or so.

I've noticed several benefits from it, namely with digestion, strength and sex drive.

However, I do seem to get muscle cramps more easily now. That tendency was there before, but seems amplified now.

My exercise routine isn't anything really intense either. For example, I might do some stretches and simple mobility work, then 3x8 squats at ~%50-60 max, some pulldowns or rows, a couple sets of planks, then be done. That 3-4x/week, and usual daily walks and playing with my kids.

I used creatine many years ago and noticed the same thing and stopped. I'm hesitant to stop now because of the benefits mentioned above.

What causes the muscle cramping, and why is it worse with creatine? I know dehydration can be a factor; I remember seeing people at the gym with gallon jugs of water in the past. I don't have any other obvious signs of dehydration.
Electrolytes? I think I get enough sodium, calcium, potassium; probably not enough magnesium, but I'm not sure that would explain it.

Any thoughts?

I'd personally try salt pills, and be sure you have enough glucose. Taurine might be another option, it seems to be able to correct many mineral imbalances. I liked creapure but had to stop because it dried out my stool.

 

[mmb82]

Electrolytes? I think I get enough sodium, calcium, potassium; probably not enough magnesium, but I'm not sure that would explain it.

I am not sure how creatine works in terms of how it affects Ca, Mg, Na, and K. My guess is that it is just revealing an underlying issue rather than causing one.

I agree with tara that Mg deficiency might be a culprit, but I would think that muscle cramps is a dead giveaway that potassium levels are low. What do you consider "enough" potassium? I only ask because, in my opinion at least, the balance between sodium, calcium, potassium, and magnesium is all interconnected, so I would say it is more of a ratio of all of these minerals rather than absolute values that matter. I think ingesting 4000 mg of potassium (or more) daily is a good starting point, but you may need more. Tropical fruits (bananas, coconut water, mango, etc.) and dates are good sources of potassium. Avocados are good as well if you are ok with ingesting PUFA.

Do you take a vitamin D supplement by any chance? If you do, I would stop taking it for a while and increase Mg and K (potassium, not vitamin K...did not want to confuse anyone) intake to see if that helps. Vitamin D will raise Ca levels, but lower Mg and K, so if you have deficiencies in Mg and/or K, those will be exacerbated by a vitamin D supplement.

 

[dfspcc20]

I'm struggling with cramps too.
The last couple of months they've been worse than when I was pregnant years ago, and harder to stop.

I'm noticing particular repetitive actions that I do some days that set me up for them in particular places those nights. Using the body in a more balanced way might help.
I'm also wondering if supplementing a few of the larger minerals could be getting the smaller ones out of balance. I usually supplement Mg, and a little Ca and Zn, and pay some attention to getting potassium from fruit and veges.
I've not been eating liver nor supplementing supplementing vitamins lately, so there could be some co-factors missing.
Or general stress and exhaustion making it hard for muscles to relax well.

Got reminded recently that sometimes gelatine can help for cramps, and the last couple of night have gone better since I ate some.

It's weird for me in that the cramps usually only come after intentional exercising. Like I might get a cramp in my calf walking back to my car after the gym, even if I didn't do anything specific for calves. I've heard there is a nervous system component to cramps. Wouldn't surprise me, since I do have other neuro symptoms, like tremors during certain exercises- with or without creatine; that was one of the reasons I decided to try creatine again.

I'd personally try salt pills, and be sure you have enough glucose. Taurine might be another option, it seems to be able to correct many mineral imbalances. I liked creapure but had to stop because it dried out my stool.

Do you know of any blood test that might show low Na? (see my response to mmb82 below as well). I definitely don't skimp on salt, and add extra via baking soda to acidic juices.

I am not sure how creatine works in terms of how it affects Ca, Mg, Na, and K. My guess is that it is just revealing an underlying issue rather than causing one.

I agree with tara that Mg deficiency might be a culprit, but I would think that muscle cramps is a dead giveaway that potassium levels are low. What do you consider "enough" potassium? I only ask because, in my opinion at least, the balance between sodium, calcium, potassium, and magnesium is all interconnected, so I would say it is more of a ratio of all of these minerals rather than absolute values that matter. I think ingesting 4000 mg of potassium (or more) daily is a good starting point, but you may need more. Tropical fruits (bananas, coconut water, mango, etc.) and dates are good sources of potassium. Avocados are good as well if you are ok with ingesting PUFA.

Do you take a vitamin D supplement by any chance? If you do, I would stop taking it for a while and increase Mg and K (potassium, not vitamin K...did not want to confuse anyone) intake to see if that helps. Vitamin D will raise Ca levels, but lower Mg and K, so if you have deficiencies in Mg and/or K, those will be exacerbated by a vitamin D supplement.

Would blood tests for Na, K, Ca, CO2, etc (as part of a comprehensive metabolic panel) be useful in this regard? In my most recent, those were all in the middle of the reference range.
Most times when I do a thorough job of entering all my food in Cronometer, I'm usually at 4-5g of K. But some days, esp when I'm not at home, that can slip. (Watermelon juice, I recently found, is pretty high too- 550mg per 8 oz).

I am cautious with D supplements. In winter, I might take 1000IU 2-3x per week at most. My last vitamin D test (25 OH) wasn't technically "low", but was suboptimal (28 NG/ML). That was taken mid-December.

 

[mmb82]

Would blood tests for Na, K, Ca, CO2, etc (as part of a comprehensive metabolic panel) be useful in this regard? In my most recent, those were all in the middle of the reference range.
Most times when I do a thorough job of entering all my food in Cronometer, I'm usually at 4-5g of K. But some days, esp when I'm not at home, that can slip. (Watermelon juice, I recently found, is pretty high too- 550mg per 8 oz).

I am cautious with D supplements. In winter, I might take 1000IU 2-3x per week at most. My last vitamin D test (25 OH) wasn't technically "low", but was suboptimal (28 NG/ML). That was taken mid-December.

A CMP would show Na, Ca, and K levels in the blood. Blood tests wouldn't hurt, but they are also not a full picture of health, so if your levels look within range, I would not be surprised.

If your vitamin D was low-ish on your last test, I would look into trying Mg supplementation through lotions or Mg oil on the skin. According to some camps out there, low levels of vitamin D are actually a result of Mg deficiency. I would try topical Mg and see if it helps; Mg is generally pretty safe and almost everyone is likely to be deficient because there is not much Mg in the soil our food is grown on.

Do you know how much Ca you are ingesting? Somewhere between a 1:1 to 2:1 daily ratio of Ca:Mg is what I would aim for if you are using Cronometer.

 

[dfspcc20]

A CMP would show Na, Ca, and K levels in the blood. Blood tests wouldn't hurt, but they are also not a full picture of health, so if your levels look within range, I would not be surprised.

If your vitamin D was low-ish on your last test, I would look into trying Mg supplementation through lotions or Mg oil on the skin. According to some camps out there, low levels of vitamin D are actually a result of Mg deficiency. I would try topical Mg and see if it helps; Mg is generally pretty safe and almost everyone is likely to be deficient because there is not much Mg in the soil our food is grown on.

Do you know how much Ca you are ingesting? Somewhere between a 1:1 to 2:1 daily ratio of Ca:Mg is what I would aim for if you are using Cronometer.

1.5-2.0g of Ca, sometimes more. So then the aim would be at least 750-1000mg Mg, which I definitely fall short on.

How does topical Mg translate to oral? As in, if I'm only getting 500mg Mg through food, would 250mg topically get that to 750, or is it more or less efficient than oral?

I've tried Mg chloride spray in the past. I didn't notice anything magical, and got a little annoyed by the messiness/flakiness.

 

[mmb82]

1.5-2.0g of Ca, sometimes more. So then the aim would be at least 750-1000mg Mg, which I definitely fall short on.

How does topical Mg translate to oral? As in, if I'm only getting 500mg Mg through food, would 250mg topically get that to 750, or is it more or less efficient than oral?

I've tried Mg chloride spray in the past. I didn't notice anything magical, and got a little annoyed by the messiness/flakiness.

I am not sure how topical and oral doses of supplements translate to one another, but topical is almost certainly going to be less effective even if digestion is poor. To what degree is it less effective? I don't know. I think some people on the forum recommend using coconut oil or some other lotion with topical supplements to help with absorption through the skin.

I would go for anywhere between 20-40 sprays of Mg oil on the skin, not necessarily all at once. I spray myself in the morning before work, after I shower post-workout, and then again before bed. If you don't like the Mg oil spray, you could try a lotion like this or this. The first one is 200 mg of Mg per tsp, so if you apply 1 tsp in 4-5 locations twice a day, you will likely get enough Mg.

 

[NevilleDewbury]

Same thing would happen to me after using the same dosage. Occasionally the cramping would wake me in the night. Sometimes it would be near incapacitating in my traps or delts for a good minute but then feel completely normal the next. I didn't think I should've been lacking in minerals due to high OJ/milk intake but I never got any labs so I suppose it was possible. Ultimately I didn't perceive the benefits of creatine to be worth the cramping.

 

[dfspcc20]

I am not sure how topical and oral doses of supplements translate to one another, but topical is almost certainly going to be less effective even if digestion is poor. To what degree is it less effective? I don't know. I think some people on the forum recommend using coconut oil or some other lotion with topical supplements to help with absorption through the skin.

I would go for anywhere between 20-40 sprays of Mg oil on the skin, not necessarily all at once. I spray myself in the morning before work, after I shower post-workout, and then again before bed. If you don't like the Mg oil spray, you could try a lotion like this or this. The first one is 200 mg of Mg per tsp, so if you apply 1 tsp in 4-5 locations twice a day, you will likely get enough Mg.

Thanks for the advice.

Probably should get a Mg test before and after. Been feeling like I'm shooting in the dark for a while now. Won't be covered by insurance, but I can use my HSA.

As far as oral magnesium- I think I tolerate mg bicarbonate and mg chloride (mixed with a little baking soda) well- haven't gotten loose stools when taken in small amounts through the day. It does seem to make me pee a lot more though. I guess that could be a sign of intestinal irritation, but I remember reading some of the paleo crowd saying that means it binding excess calcium. No idea if that makes any sense. Thoughts?

 

[Luckytype]

Ill keep this hopefully understandbly short. So in muscle, the reason muscles cramp is they reach whats called tetanus.

For a muscle to relax it also requires atp. We know that creatine is an ATP donator so when muscles contract they go ATP -> ADP plus a phosphate. The higher creatine levels (via supplement)swoops in and donates to the existing phosphocreatine system and you have ATP again.

Now in extended performance, like longer than few seconds bursts(so think a set of 6-12 reps) you get overlap with the glycolytic system. So here youre using phosphocreatine system to its maximum but also stored muscular glycogen. As a result of anaerobic glycolysis the systems first product is basically pyruvate eventually leading to hydrogen ions being produced and as time goes on eventually you reach a state that the intracellular pH goes up as a result of the inability of the system to bring in oxygen and to rid the cell of all the byproducts(all necessary mind you because they continue on then enter the whats called the Krebs cycle and eventually into aerobic metabolism, also a mild overlap with these other two power producing systems). Blah blah

Essentially you have pyruvate plus this stuff called NAD and the Hydrogen ion responsible for pH(acidity) and this fluxes back and forth with lactate and the NADH.

Essentially what is happening is in creatine supplementation, the intracellular amounts of creatine are stored with glycogen and water which MAY affect electrolyte balance.
Though i dont think its ever been detailed, the supplemented creatine creates the ability to work longer and "kinda sorta" buffers the stress from the longer term glycolytic system. As a result you get MORE work, and as a product of anaerobic glycolysis you end up with a lower pH so more acid in the cell also referred to as lactate(which can be converted and used in the liver and brain) or lactic acid.

In short creatine basically trades off so that the glycolytic system can be pushed hard enough and long enough that the byproducts of glycolysis creates enough of its intermediate waste product that causes the cramping because of intracellular pH rising BUT since there isnt oxygen present you cramp. If there was oxygen present you could enter the waste product into further processes and basically voila aerobic metabolism and many more ATP produced with extended performance like running or high rep sets.

The first adaptations of a body training for aerobics is ability to push the lactate threshold higher and higher and process it better so tetanus is only reached at near maximum long term efforts.

 

[Luckytype]

Id be willing to bet its likely when you already have a pump and its likely near the ending sets or near workouts end...or in a muscle thats got a good mind muscle connection like biceps

 

[dfspcc20]

@Luckytype thanks for the detailed response, but I'm not sure if it really cleared anything up for me. :)
Yes, the cramps usually don't happen while I'm exercising. As I mentioned in another comment, it might be a cramp in my calf, quad or hamstring while walking back to the car.
My lactate threshold is probably low, as I haven't really done any sort of aerobic work in years.
I am planning to cut the creatine dose in half to 2.5g/day.

Same thing would happen to me after using the same dosage. Occasionally the cramping would wake me in the night. Sometimes it would be near incapacitating in my traps or delts for a good minute but then feel completely normal the next. I didn't think I should've been lacking in minerals due to high OJ/milk intake but I never got any labs so I suppose it was possible. Ultimately I didn't perceive the benefits of creatine to be worth the cramping.

Yikes, can't say I ever got them that bad. The worst recently was after grocery shopping and walking back to the car carrying several shopping bags. I had to reach across my body with one hand to get my keys out of my pocket, which resulted in a pretty uncomfortable cramp in my pec. Got a few "what's wrong with this guy" looks from people as a tried to stretch it out while still holding the bags. :)

 

[Luckytype]

@Luckytype thanks for the detailed response, but I'm not sure if it really cleared anything up for me. :)
Yes, the cramps usually don't happen while I'm exercising. As I mentioned in another comment, it might be a cramp in my calf, quad or hamstring while walking back to the car.
My lactate threshold is probably low, as I haven't really done any sort of aerobic work in years.
I am planning to cut the creatine dose in half to 2.5g/day.



Yikes, can't say I ever got them that bad. The worst recently was after grocery shopping and walking back to the car carrying several shopping bags. I had to reach across my body with one hand to get my keys out of my pocket, which resulted in a pretty uncomfortable cramp in my pec. Got a few "what's wrong with this guy" looks from people as a tried to stretch it out while still holding the bags. :)

Damn, sorry man! So youre cramping in groups that havent been worked while doing just daily activities?

(Ever had a lat cramp while cleaning up after the toilet? Thats a weird situation haha)

 

[dfspcc20]

Damn, sorry man! So youre cramping in groups that havent been worked while doing just daily activities?

(Ever had a lat cramp while cleaning up after the toilet? Thats a weird situation haha)

Yeah, typically within 1-2 hours of exercise or strenuous activity.

I don't remember any lat cramps. I have had cramps in neck muscles (I think longus capitis), which were scary. Those were without taking creatine, though. So makes me think perhaps a systemic issue, or maybe structural or neurological (I was in a car accident decades ago where I had a concussion and probably whip lash).

 

[Luckytype]

Yeah, typically within 1-2 hours of exercise or strenuous activity.

Of groups trained that day? Also, are these groups easily contractable ones? Biceps, chest, forearms? Or is it like all muscle groups?


Tell me about your training history

 

[Mito]

Any thoughts?

Something to consider is this quote by Koveras: “I've seen that even a mild dietary phosphorous deficiency can impair cell ATP levels. Creatine will also increase phosphate requirements and uptake - potentially a mechanism for creatine induced muscle cramps if that mild dietary phosphate deficiency is present and/or if there is insulin resistance. Important to consider, especially for athletes, considering the general emphasis on reducing phosphate intake here. ATP in this product comes with its own phosphate, but I assume ramping up ETC or utilizing the purine salvage pathways could increase phosphate requirements further.”

Cardenosine - Liquid Product For R&D

 

[dfspcc20]

Of groups trained that day? Also, are these groups easily contractable ones? Biceps, chest, forearms? Or is it like all muscle groups?


Tell me about your training history

A couple of examples of cramps- after doing squats, I got calf cramps when walking back to my car. And on a day after doing some lat pulldowns, afterwards we were at a farmers market and I was carrying my daughter for a while and got a bad cramp in the bicep.

How long do you want the history to get? :)

>18 years ago- ran track in high school; wasn't any good, but got into weight training as result. Weight was probably ~170lbs at this time. (I'm 6'2"-ish)
18-14 years ago- Regularly weight-trained in college along with intermural sports. Wasn't following any sort of program; mostly focused on bench and deadlifts, rounded out with other muscles groups. When I got better dialed in on calories and protein, I was progressing well. I got up to 205lbs in my senior year. Tried creatine off-and-on then; I couple times I got bad cramps in quads when running after weight training, so didn't really continue it.
13 years ago- a handful of friends & acquaintances made comments about my gains, which, along with mild acne (which I've always had), *must* mean I was juicing or something. I shouldn't have been hurt by that, but it did affect me. Ended up going down the rabbit-hole of Curezone-type cleanses and fasts. Got down to around ~160lbs
~12ish years ago- got introduced to Weston A Price's work. I know, not perfect in the Peat-o-sphere, but it did get some sense into me and get me away from the Curezone shiite.
12-3 years ago- seldom did any intentional exercises at the gym. The triad of job+house+kids sapped most of that energy. Not that I was sedentary- still walked a lot, did project around the house, played with the kids, etc.
5-6 years ago- Started reading Matt Stone, eventually led me to Ray Peat.
~3 years ago- started trying to exercise more. Started doing more stuff like yoga, working more on my squat form, and with getting introduced to things like Z health and Katy Bowman's writings.

That leads me to now. I'm back up to ~180lbs. Been following Chris Masterjohn since my WAPF days; he had a convincing piece on creatine recently, so I thought I'd give it a try.