Cramps Keep Getting Worse and I Already Loaded on Potassium And it Doesn't Help. Finally Figured out Why- Sharing

[yerrag]

If you have a high sugar diet the thiamine can be super helpful for the low oxygen at night which could be sleep apnea from autonomic nervous system dysfunction.

The autonomic nervous system dysfunction is merely imho an abstraction created by the same people who brought us membranes and pumps, whom Gilbert Ling already debunked.

This abstraction is a device to suspend the normal human's ability to connect dots in cause and effect relationships, and it's like I get stabbed, and I go see my doctor and he tells me I have high beta-sympathetic activity and low parasympathetic, and that the wound is superficial.

So, personally, all the sleep apnea experts and therapist can all go to hell.

It is all metabolic in nature and CO2 plays a big role in that. By CO2 I mean also carbonic acid and bicarbonate all being adequate and whose conversion from one to another makes us very adaptable and able to handle stress better, or even avoid having to go to stress responses.

 

[RealNeat]

Ok people are going really in depth so I am going to sound kind of vague saying this but I think focusing on maintaining the structure of water in the body is ideal for this situation.

If we think of ourselves as bags of water (in a non offensive way) that relies on good metabolism to structure itself and make protein we can see where the most important aspects of keeping that structure lie.

This forum is familiar with this concept thanks to Dr. Peat but many others are waking up to the importance of structured water, more so in the body rather than a gimmicky product.

So a EMF free environment and anything else that helps prevent flooding of calcium into the cell would be my first order of business. I'd experiment with natural calcium "channel" blockers and I would sauna/ get sun with sweet OJ before during and after as Dr. Peat would say. The attempt of raising body temperature enough to sweat would mimic a fever and hence a flush of the bulk water. Look up "Coleys toxins."

I'd also experiment with frequency and anything that helps reset the memory of water including some fringe stuff with scalar energy.

If things got really chronic I would bury myself in the ground somewhere, like a beach and just try to let go and relax. I think the body needs to be reminded of it's biological identity and there's no better way to do that than

A.) meet its base needs
and
B.) reconnect with what it's made of, the Earth

“Water is life’s matter and matrix, mother and medium.” -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi

 

[Teri]

I find magnesium jell works well

 

[yerrag]

Low sodium could be causing the inability to acidify the urine as it's pumping out the other electrolytes making it alkaline. This was happening to me on a high milk, OJ and potato diet. And I would get symptoms when my urine went alkaline. Soidum bicarbonate doesn't acidify urine though? I believe Chris Masterjohn said you know you have too much when your urine goes alkaline. And you need more when it's overly acidic.

This is not an easy subject to discuss, and I can only say what I think I know about it. It can be logical, but it may not. necessarily be true.

First of all, very low salt stores will definitely cause other minerals, especially potassium, to be wasted-excreted, in larger quantities. But this isn't what we are arguing about.

But it isn't really for lack of sodium that the urine will turn alkaline. It's because the ecf is low in carbonic acid (the ecf consists of the interstitial fluids and plasma - rbc is a cell and so doesn't count as ecf). Stay with me here - if mitochondria isn't producing CO2, there is no carbonic acid as the Co2 is converted to carbonic acid to transport calcium out of the cell.

The effect is that the ecf being alkaline will result in urine being alkaline in order to lower the alkalinity, regardless of whether you are low in sodium or not.

CMJ covers a lot of ground when it comes to human physiology. He could easily lose the trees for the forest, and that's just a small knock on him. But I think the way our kidneys regulate pH is more complicated than simply saying bicarbonate increases alkalinity.

The bicarbonate, while alkaline, may be converted to CO2 and then to carbonic acid by enzymes. Or it may not if the bicarbonate is excreted in urine.

What factors are involved I really don't know. The same question arises when carbogen is breathed in, or when soda water is drank.

And then there are special cases where I know my acid balance is really off and knowing can serve as an early warning to me.

It is normal for the urine to be more acidic than the saliva. If that is inverted, I investigate further.

Sometimes, that can occur when the hydrogen H+ ion from blood had made an exchange with the K+ ions in cells, as the body's adaptation to a very acidic blood. So when acidic urine is to be excreted, there are no NH4+ cations available to form the acidic salt to be excreted.

I'm gonna stop here as this is getting too technical and I may be rattling on and on.

 

[mostlylurking]

So, from perfect sugar metabolism, but due to bacteria, I am now relegated to very flawed sugar metabolizer.

From being well stocked with CO2 to being low on it, and even high on lactate, I would now have poor acid-base balance.

And because of this, I am experiencing cramps because the balance required to keep calcium going in and out of cells in the continual cycle of contraction and relaxation is no longer around.

Being low in CO2 and high in lactate points to thiamine deficiency. Thiamine deficiency blocks oxidative metabolism. Thiamine deficiency deranges calcium function (probably by causing lactic acid instead of carbon dioxide). The immune system needs thiamine to function, so it makes sense that having a thiamine deficiency would make problems with bacterial overgrowth more likely and more difficult to resolve.

Thiamine Repletion, Calcium Management, and the Heart - Hormones Matter

For some, thiamine supplementation is a simple process with noticeable improvements almost immediately. For others, the process is grueling.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Mitochondrial Competence and Calcium Regulation​

Calcium regulation depends upon functioning mitochondria and a steady stream of ATP. Mitochondrial functioning, in turn depends upon the appropriate concentrations of Ca2+. The relationship between the two is reciprocal and dynamic. Failure in either, leads to failure in both.

Mitochondrial nutrient deficiencies lead to reduced energy metabolism and utilization and ultimately molecular hypoxia.

The autonomic nervous system dysfunction is merely imho an abstraction created by the same people who brought us membranes and pumps, whom Gilbert Ling already debunked.

Since I was in autonomic nervous system dysfunction hell a year ago and have corrected the problem via high dose thiamine, I do not think that's true. Thiamine deficiency derails the autonomic system.

Dysautonomia and Hypoxia - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency and the resultant hypoxia involved in the myriad of autonomically controlled systems currently labeled dysautonomia?

www.hormonesmatter.com

There appears to be some differences of opinion between Ray Peat and Dr. Lonsdale. Understanding acetylcholine is complicated; people sometimes take unfortunate shortcuts when trying to explain it. Here are some other links that touch on the subject:

New Page Title Here

New descriptive sentence from the article here

raypeat.com

and

Acetyl-CoA and acetylcholine metabolism in nerve terminal compartment of thiamine deficient rat brain - PubMed

The decrease of pyruvate and ketoglutarate dehydrogenase complex activities is the main cause of energy and acetyl-CoA deficits in thiamine deficiency-evoked cholinergic encephalopathies. However, disturbances in pathways of acetyl-CoA metabolism leading to appearance of cholinergic deficits...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Acetyl-CoA and acetylcholine metabolism in nerve terminal compartment of thiamine deficient rat brain​

Acetyl-CoA keeps acetylcholine in check; thiamine deficiency causes problems. It's complicated.

It is all metabolic in nature and CO2 plays a big role in that. By CO2 I mean also carbonic acid and bicarbonate all being adequate and whose conversion from one to another makes us very adaptable and able to handle stress better, or even avoid having to go to stress responses.

Thiamine deficiency derails oxidative metabolism. Thiamine is as important as thyroid hormone in this process; without thiamine, the end byproduct is lactic acid, not carbon dioxide.

Here are some Ray Peat quotes about thiamine: Ray Peat On Vitamin B1 - Thiamine

Please note that consuming sugar uses up thiamine. Ray Peat advises that if you are going to consume sugar you will need to supplement with additional thiamine. There is a popular idea on this forum that eating lots of sugar is just a great idea. This is NOT a Ray Peat idea. Ray has said that consuming a quart of orange juice plus the sugar in a couple of quarts of milk a day is a good amount of sugar to consume. HOWEVER, if you are thiamine deficient, even this amount will derail your metabolism.

There are many pharmaceutical drugs, including a lot of antibiotics that block thiamine function. If you have taken antibiotics for a bacterial infection, you may have a thiamine functional blockage caused by the antibiotic which is exacerbating the problem.

 

[yerrag]

Since I was in autonomic nervous system dysfunction hell a year ago and have corrected the problem via high dose thiamine, I do not think that's true. Thiamine deficiency derails the autonomic system.

I still maintain that this is metabolic. Thiamine affects metabolism, so why not. call a. spade a spade. That the autonomic. nervous system is involved does not take away from the fact that thiamine affects mitochondrial respiration.

And when you consider that the. body's involuntary processes are everywhere, and the autonomic nervous system is at work, then we should call every problem autonomic instead of saying it is say, an immune system, or an endocrine or an exocrine, or adrenal issue.

 

[mostlylurking]

I still maintain that this is metabolic. Thiamine affects metabolism, so why not. call a. spade a spade. That the autonomic. nervous system is involved does not take away from the fact that thiamine affects mitochondrial respiration.

And when you consider that the. body's involuntary processes are everywhere, and the autonomic nervous system is at work, then we should call every problem autonomic instead of saying it is say, an immune system, or an endocrine or an exocrine, or adrenal issue.

I didn't say it wasn't metabolic.

Yes, the autonomic nervous system is a very big deal; it affects everything. When your brain is thiamine deficient, you are in big trouble. Lack of metabolic energy in the brain will kill you.

How Can Something As Simple as Thiamine Cause So Many Problems? - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency too simple to explain the devastating nature of the systemic adverse reactions to some vaccines and medications?

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[Kayaker]

Since I was in autonomic nervous system dysfunction hell a year ago and have corrected the problem via high dose thiamine, I do not think that's true. Thiamine deficiency derails the autonomic system.

Autonomic dysfunction such as? I have it at the end of the day, which is clearly not because of a thiamine deficiency, but because mitochondria gets tired or something. My late-day temperature (97.6) is lower than my waking temperature (98.2).

Also, I get brain fog in the middle of the day that gets corrected by merely drinking a sugary beverage, yet no blood sugar problems.

 

[mostlylurking]

Autonomic dysfunction such as? I have it at the end of the day, which is clearly not because of a thiamine deficiency, but because mitochondria gets tired or something. My late-day temperature (97.6) is lower than my waking temperature (98.2).

Also, I get brain fog in the middle of the day that gets corrected by merely drinking a sugary beverage, yet no blood sugar problems.

The most noticeable were digestive tract issues: esophageal paralysis (food got stuck a LOT and wouldn't go down; low stomach acid; lousy peristalsis, constipation. Also issues with not being able to walk without banging into walls and difficulty standing up straight without listing to the side so badly I thought I would fall over walking to the bathroom; these have resolved with high dose thiamine. There have been other improvements, more subtle.

Thiamine deficiency affects the liver's ability to store sugar so hypoglycemia becomes a problem. Other things cause liver damage too.

 

[Kayaker]

The most noticeable were digestive tract issues: esophageal paralysis (food got stuck a LOT and wouldn't go down; low stomach acid; lousy peristalsis, constipation. Also issues with not being able to walk without banging into walls and difficulty standing up straight without listing to the side so badly I thought I would fall over walking to the bathroom; these have resolved with high dose thiamine. There have been other improvements, more subtle.

Thiamine deficiency affects the liver's ability to store sugar so hypoglycemia becomes a problem. Other things cause liver damage too.

I have other symptoms. Weird blood pressure dysregulation. When I stand up when I'm dysautonomic, I hear waves in my ears for half a minute and when I lie down suddenly, I feel a lot of pressure in my head for a few seconds as well. Changing sides while lying down must be done slowly because of the pressure dysregulation. It can get severe, making large, sudden changes of position a potentially fatal stressor.

When I was basically at my worst, my serum thiamine was 22.1 nmol/L. I don't know what it is now, but it was only slightly below average. I considered it to be from lipid peroxidation since my arachidonic acid and iron came out high.

 

[mostlylurking]

My late-day temperature (97.6) is lower than my waking temperature (98.2).

This is a sign that you may be running on adrenaline to compensate for hypothyroidism.

Please note that when my thiamine function got blocked from taking Bactrim antibiotic my temperature was below normal even though I was taking prescription thyroid medication that had worked fine for six years. I could not get my temperature above 97.6. When I took about 250-300mg thiamine one afternoon, my temperature went up a full degree and my inflammation disappeared in about 45 minutes. This response showed me that my problem was thiamine related.

For me, the thiamine problem kept my body from benefiting from my thyroid med and when I was tested, my T3 was super too high while I simultaneously had hypothyroid symptoms. Since being on the high dose thiamine, my endocrinologist has lowered my medication twice to keep my T3 within range and I'm doing much better.

 

[mostlylurking]

I have other symptoms. Weird blood pressure dysregulation. When I stand up when I'm dysautonomic, I hear waves in my ears for half a minute and when I lie down suddenly, I feel a lot of pressure in my head for a few seconds as well. Changing sides while lying down must be done slowly because of the pressure dysregulation.

That sounds really familiar. I've read that these are symptoms of thiamine deficiency. I've had similar symptoms in the past. When I was at my worst about a year ago, my pulse was all over the place.

 

[Kayaker]

This is a sign that you may be running on adrenaline to compensate for hypothyroidism.

Please note that when my thiamine function got blocked from taking Bactrim antibiotic my temperature was below normal even though I was taking prescription thyroid medication that had worked fine for six years. I could not get my temperature above 97.6. When I took about 250-300mg thiamine one afternoon, my temperature went up a full degree and my inflammation disappeared in about 45 minutes. This response showed me that my problem was thiamine related.

For me, the thiamine problem kept my body from benefiting from my thyroid med and when I was tested, my T3 was super too high while I simultaneously had hypothyroid symptoms. Since being on the high dose thiamine, my endocrinologist has lowered my medication twice to keep my T3 within range.

That's probably true. My TSH was 3.5 recently, when I checked my temps, then I increased my thyroid dosage.

I've heard of Bactrim blocking thiamine function on here before, maybe I read your posts before.

Was your T3 high and TSH high? My TSH-T3 tended to be high. Same with TSH-T4. I managed to get my TSH down to 1.5 once with T4 alone, but my T4 was slightly above normal.

 

[Kayaker]

That sounds really familiar. I've read that these are symptoms of thiamine deficiency. I've had similar symptoms in the past. When I was at my worst about a year ago, my pulse was all over the place.

I bet it can result from multiple causes and thiamine would tend to improve it even if thiamine isn't deficient because it does help oxidative metabolism. That's what I'm hoping for, that I don't have to supplement it to be at my best. In your case with thiamine being depleted by the antibiotic, it was the definite thing to do.

 

[mostlylurking]

That's probably true. My TSH was 3.5 recently, when I checked my temps, then I increased my thyroid dosage.

I've heard of Bactrim blocking thiamine function on here before, maybe I read your posts before.

Was your T3 high and TSH high? My TSH-T3 tended to be high. Same with TSH-T4. I managed to get my TSH down to 1.5 once with T4 alone, but my T4 was slightly above normal.

My TSH has been around .01 for a very long time, many years. My endocrinologist just ignores it and treats my symptoms. Are you getting blood work regularly? Have you learned how to interpret it? This can be tricky because the test isn't calibrated correctly. Peat has said that T3 needs to be high-normal, almost out of range to the high side. Deciphering thyroid blood work can be tricky.

I've read that thyrotoxicosis (T3 too high) can damage thiamine function. I've had two doctors tell me that too. "Thyrotoxicosis is a hypermetabolic state in which there is increased utilization of thiamine. Thiamine deficiency has been observed in association with hyperthyroidism." link: Thiamine Supplement in Patients With Severe Hyperthyroidism - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov I don't know if this exascerbated my thiamine problem or not because I did not have symptoms of hyperthyroidism; I had symptoms of hypothyroidism (low temp, high inflammation). But I think now that people can get themselves in trouble supplementing thyroid on their own without testing. I was recording my temperature and pulse; temp was low, pulse was erratic while T3 was way high out of range. I had a thiamine functional blockage.

 

[mostlylurking]

I bet it can result from multiple causes and thiamine would tend to improve it even if thiamine isn't deficient because it does help oxidative metabolism. That's what I'm hoping for, that I don't have to supplement it to be at my best. In your case with thiamine being depleted by the antibiotic, it was the definite thing to do.

Can you tell me why you are concerned about supplementing thiamine?

 

[mostlylurking]

When I was basically at my worst, my serum thiamine was 22.1 nmol/L. I don't know what it is now, but it was only slightly below average. I considered it to be from lipid peroxidation since my arachidonic acid and iron came out high.

Some people require super high doses of thiamine in order for certain enzymes to work. These enzymes are critical parts of the oxidative metabolic system. The enzymes don't have a strong enough affinity for thiamine (a cofactor) so they need to be flooded with it in order to work properly. Elliot Overton has a video about it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-aQHxp97oA


High iron can be especially problematic with a thiamine deficiency because thiamine deficiency causes the blood brain barrier to become compromised, allowing iron to get into the brain. Vitamin B1 Deficiency a Key Factor in the Development of Alcohol-Related Dementia - Neuroscience News Keep in mind that thiamine deficiency is caused by many more things than just alcohol consumption.

 

[yerrag]

I also have had bad bacteria in my mouth because of not taking care of issues. For me it may have been one cause for some of my health problems. So I am not discounting oral bacteria at all, I am sorry if it sounded like I was talking down to you. Like I said I've been following some of your threads for yrs. It may have been how you worded the post. We can only suspect bacteria is a direct cause. If it is are you currently doing something to control bacteria in your mouth? I use a waterpik with Lugol's iodine. And plan on getting the last of my decay filled and one tooth removed. Oral bacteria is no joke. I don't think most can have great health while having decay going on in their mouth.

Yes, oral health is so important, not that we ever thought otherwise. It's just that the profession of dentistry neglects to tell us the right way of caring for our teeth and gums. We were all naive to think that we can stop tooth decay by avoiding sugar and by brushing, flossing, and jet spraying our teeth. I wondered why I have so much plaque forming, and I was fooled by believing that it is a genetic trait. Peat set that straight. Now I don't have that many plaque anymore, but still the gum line has been invaded and I fear a domino effect with my remaining teeth. We shall see. I've stopped seeing my dentist for cleanings. I'm currently using Dr. Manhart's system and he says he's stopped oral cleanings with his system. Is he close by? Have you tried his system?

If tour gumline has been breached by bacteria, that is what must concern you. If it's just a tooth decay or two, as long as fixed it won't cause systemiic infection.

Don't worry about our little exchange. It's no biggie because we're both grownups and we're careful not to get pwrsonal. Plus, I've said what needed to be said about context and in thia forum we're sharing and learning from each other though even if context varies.

I'm not sure why you reacted this way to my post. You didn't mention you tried salt so I have no idea why it was such a huge deal I brought it up. If I seemed talking down to you that wasn't my intention. I come here to discuss health and nutrition.

Was that all you said about salt? You can check back your post as I recall there was some gratuitous element to it.

 

[Kayaker]

My TSH has been around .01 for a very long time, many years. My endocrinologist just ignores it and treats my symptoms. Are you getting blood work regularly? Have you learned how to interpret it? This can be tricky because the test isn't calibrated correctly. Peat has said that T3 needs to be high-normal, almost out of range to the high side. Deciphering thyroid blood work can be tricky.

I've read that thyrotoxicosis (T3 too high) can damage thiamine function. I've had two doctors tell me that too. "Thyrotoxicosis is a hypermetabolic state in which there is increased utilization of thiamine. Thiamine deficiency has been observed in association with hyperthyroidism." link: Thiamine Supplement in Patients With Severe Hyperthyroidism - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov I don't know if this exascerbated my thiamine problem or not because I did not have symptoms of hyperthyroidism; I had symptoms of hypothyroidism (low temp, high inflammation). But I think now that people can get themselves in trouble supplementing thyroid on their own without testing. I was recording my temperature and pulse; temp was low, pulse was erratic while T3 was way high out of range. I had a thiamine functional blockage.

Where is the quote in which Peat says T3 needs to be high-normal? I got mostly free T3 done, and when I was on T3-only, my fT3 level was on the high side, yet with high TSH, so Peat recommended using T4 to lower TSH.

I see TSH and cholesterol as good ways of assessing if additional thyroid is safe. If they are not low, then it's safe to proceed if one doesn't respond badly to more thyroid.

Endocrinologists who treat symptoms are uncommon. Mine mostly cared about TSH, which was 3.5 a few weeks ago on 100 mcg of T4 and 40-50 mcg of T3. I increased the T4 to 150, and I increased the dose of T3 at first, but then reduced it since it doesn't make me feel any better.

The study you provided mentions inadequate nutritional intake as a cause of thiamine deficiency, and I think most people here are aware of the importance of eating enough with metabolic stimulants. Sometimes, they stray and try to lose weight.

I had no issue with thiamine level in my serum and WBC when I was at my worst. My CO2, anion gap, and lactate weren't suggestive of thiamine deficiency either.

Thyrotoxicosis is far from just too much thyroid AFAIK. For me, an excess amount of T3 doesn't increase temp and pulse. It may be getting deactivated. Actually, I feel more or less the same on and off T3 since I don't have a problem converting T4.

It sounds like your metabolism wanted to be high because of thyroid, but couldn't because of thiamine level not being able to support it. It's no surprise that you developed strong deficiency symptoms.

If thyroid is too high for the amount of nutrients you consume, I believe that counts as hyperthyroidism, and the low TSH is suggestive of that. Low blood sugar and a lower BMI cause lower TSH and lower conversion of T4 into T3, which is protective in cases like deficiency. Diabetics have lower conversion, and they have less sugar uptake and higher cortisol, which reduces conversion. They are likely to have deficiencies in B vitamins, which interferes with proper metabolism.

My temp was usually around 99.2 during mid-day, so temp wasn't an issue despite high TSH. My pulse didn't change at all from thyroid. Around 100 bpm at the doc's, on little or a lot of thyroid, usually high 70s or low 80s alone.

I guess your blood pressure was low, which would be a red flag for heart problems. Mine was never low enough to warrant my attention. Usually normal, while pulse was high.

I may be overly optimistic, but I think my brain serotonin is low and it uses such a massive amount of CNS resources that leads to me developing dysautonomia later in the day. So I just eat all day. A meal or juice/milk every hour or so. If I go too long without eating, I get brain fog. I don't feel hungry at these times, nor do I have hypoglycemia, but I need to eat anyway.

Remember, Peat said that hypoglycemia is one of the most powerful causes of inflammation, and he spoke of this in the context of brain cells needing sugar. You were hyperthyroid, yet couldn't process glucose correctly due to thiamine deficiency, which caused inflammation. Allithiamine is so effective for neuroinflammation in general probably because it increases the ability of the brain to metabolize correctly.

 

[Kayaker]

Some people require super high doses of thiamine in order for certain enzymes to work. These enzymes are critical parts of the oxidative metabolic system. The enzymes don't have a strong enough affinity for thiamine (a cofactor) so they need to be flooded with it in order to work properly. Elliot Overton has a video about it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-aQHxp97oA


High iron can be especially problematic with a thiamine deficiency because thiamine deficiency causes the blood brain barrier to become compromised, allowing iron to get into the brain. Vitamin B1 Deficiency a Key Factor in the Development of Alcohol-Related Dementia - Neuroscience News Keep in mind that thiamine deficiency is caused by many more things than just alcohol consumption.

Thiamine deficiency increasing blood brain barrier permeability is interesting and I'll think about that connection. Allithiamine binds to heavy metals and I wonder if that's the reason why people respond badly to it, then feel better afterward, rather than the glutathione depletion explanation.

I can't tell if allithiamine works or not since I do feel bad from it at first. If thiamine is deficient or used poorly in the blood, there would be signs like your high pulse and low temp despite high TSH, and low intestinal movement.

I have no problem with intestinal transit. Twice daily. But if brain thiamine is low, that's harder to tell, and again, I have no way of knowing if it works or not since its immediate effects are different from its delayed effects. Maybe micro-dosing it would avoid the bad effects.