Covid will reinforce the Globalization narrative

[TheBeard]

"See how being isolated from the rest of the world sucks? See how bad you feel when things don't get imported from China? See how miserable you were when plane were grounded in 2020 / 2021 during the Covid events?"
"You experienced how crual the lack of globalization can feel during Covid, so now, accept it with your open arms"

I'm sure we'll be hearing this over and over when / if the flu mascarade is ever over with.
They will use this economical agony period to justifiy that, if we are f.u.c.k.e.d, it's because international exchanges and human traveling stopped.

Lots of countries had started being more nationalist and having the far right push to become in power and reject globalization prior to 2019 (Hungary, France, Brazil).
Covid is one tool to reverse that mechanism.

 

[Gustav3Y]

Western Europe lacks workers this is why many from Eastern Europe are sought after as workers in all fields, mostly that require servitude, building, agriculture, nursing, assembly in factories, drivers, etc. But of course not only Eastern Europe so it is pretty hard to stop the globalization because of this need.

Now quite sure what the UK was trying to do with Brexit, on one hand they globalize (people from all over the ex British empire) but on the other hand they de-europeanize by no liking the eastern Europeans going there.
Finally they still need workers from all over the world it would appear.

 

[Giraffe]

Western Europe lacks workers this is why many from Eastern Europe are sought after as workers in all fields, mostly that require servitude, building, agriculture, nursing, assembly in factories, drivers, etc. But of course not only Eastern Europe so it is pretty hard to stop the globalization because of this need.

Western Europe doesn't lack workers. The working conditions are so bad, that people don't want to work in those jobs.

 

[Quelsatron]

Western Europe doesn't lack workers. The working conditions are so bad, that people don't want to work in those jobs.

and the jobs which are fine but still cry for immigrant labor are just greedy and are trying to push wages down

 

[Giraffe]

and the jobs which are fine but still cry for immigrant labor are just greedy and are trying to push wages down

I am not sure I completely understand what you are trying to say. I agree that it pushes wages down. This is neoliberal agenda.

 

[Quelsatron]

I am not sure I completely understand what you are trying to say. I agree that it pushes wages down. This is neoliberal agenda.

Well, you have two kinds of jobs pushing for immigrants: trash tier jobs no westerner would do because it's basically slavery (here we have a lot of food delivering indians), and real jobs (engineering etc) which are perfectly acceptable jobs that everyone wants to do, but the companies push for immigration for the opportunity to push wages down with foreign employees while bitching about lack of workers (a lie)

 

[Giraffe]

Well, you have two kinds of jobs pushing for immigrants: trash tier jobs no westerner would do because it's basically slavery (here we have a lot of food delivering indians), and real jobs (engineering etc) which are perfectly acceptable jobs that everyone wants to do, but the companies push for immigration for the opportunity to push wages down with foreign employees while bitching about lack of workers (a lie)

 

[Gustav3Y]

Western Europe doesn't lack workers. The working conditions are so bad, that people don't want to work in those jobs.

Are you sure that working conditions are bad or culturally they are not accepted anymore ?
Sure the immigrant will work for less payment, but that does not change that certain jobs have always been hard jobs with bad conditions.

It is hard to accept to clean after old people, no matter how good of a job it is the common western has better dreams than caring and washing old people, here is where the immigrants come in. Imagine yourself doing such job, the conditions cannot be good by default.

Working conditions cannot be "good" for picking up grapes, strawberries or processing meat? The conditions were never good for this sort of work.
These are basically idealistically bad jobs, and today's social norms promote anything but working unqualified jobs like those.

 

[Giraffe]

Are you sure that working conditions are bad or culturally they are not accepted anymore ?
Sure the immigrant will work for less payment, but that does not change that certain jobs have always been hard jobs with bad conditions.

It is hard to accept to clean after old people, no matter how good of a job it is the common western has better dreams than caring and washing old people, here is where the immigrants come in. Imagine yourself doing such job, the conditions cannot be good by default.

Working conditions cannot be "good" for picking up grapes, strawberries or processing meat? The conditions were never good for this sort of work.
These are basically idealistically bad jobs, and today's social norms promote anything but working unqualified jobs like those.

Hospitals and care homes are massively understaffed. Health care workers work shifts and often they work overtime without adequate financial compensation. Patients or nursing home residents often do not get the attention and treatment they need and deserve. For those care home workers who love their profession, who have chosen this profession because of compassion this is very distressing, and many look for something else at some point. The privatization of hospitals and case-based lump sums are not compatible with good care.

Where I live, picking strawberries, processing meat, partly even delivering Amazon parcels is often done by seasonal workers. They are deceived and exploited wage-slaves.

Taxi drivers, cooks etc. (typical jobs for immigrants) only make ends meet by working many, many hours.

 

[PxD]

Are you sure that working conditions are bad or culturally they are not accepted anymore ?
Sure the immigrant will work for less payment, but that does not change that certain jobs have always been hard jobs with bad conditions.

It is hard to accept to clean after old people, no matter how good of a job it is the common western has better dreams than caring and washing old people, here is where the immigrants come in. Imagine yourself doing such job, the conditions cannot be good by default.

Working conditions cannot be "good" for picking up grapes, strawberries or processing meat? The conditions were never good for this sort of work.
These are basically idealistically bad jobs, and today's social norms promote anything but working unqualified jobs like those.

I think it's a bit of both. Westerners have grown pretty soft since the petroleum age came into full force (post-WW2). Couple that with the genius idea of capital owners to export factories to poor countries (outsourcing) and import cheap slave-wage labor to work in dirty jobs (insourcing) and the end result is globalization, loosening of borders, and mass migration into wealthy countries. The political consequences of these changes are the toxic ideologies of multiculturalism/diversity/inclusivity. The end result will be social fracturization and chaos, and possibly even the self-suicide of certain nations/cultures as they are demographically replaced, while the capital-owner class gets wealthier.

I am not a socialist by any means, but Marx sort of predicted this. He called it financial capitalism and described it as an endless chase to cheaper labor, a race to the bottom.

 

[michael94]

Are you sure that working conditions are bad or culturally they are not accepted anymore ?
Sure the immigrant will work for less payment, but that does not change that certain jobs have always been hard jobs with bad conditions.

It is hard to accept to clean after old people, no matter how good of a job it is the common western has better dreams than caring and washing old people, here is where the immigrants come in. Imagine yourself doing such job, the conditions cannot be good by default.

Working conditions cannot be "good" for picking up grapes, strawberries or processing meat? The conditions were never good for this sort of work.
These are basically idealistically bad jobs, and today's social norms promote anything but working unqualified jobs like those.

picking grapes and strawberries is hard work, but it sounds like what a lot of people could use right now. Actual work and sun exposure.

Improvements in efficiency and technology which should have reached honest work were deliberately funneled into over-financializing the economy. So - much of the hard jobs are still low status and borderline poverty.

 

[Gustav3Y]

I agree salaries are bad, some workers are worked as slaves, etc.
However the cultural aspect cannot be ignored at the expense of financial-only arguments of government and private agendas to getting cheaper workers from the east.

Ironically people had house maids, field workers, manure cleaners, cow milkers from their own country in the past and they still had to work hard and for little payment, basically bad jobs, while others were paid way better for better jobs, but with time and access to higher education and off-shore manufacturing these have died out of interest.
Major importance it is also the fact that today, digitization, software creation also creates an avenue highly attractive to anyone young, which is hard work that can be pay very good to slave work again, see the south Asia and south-east Asia online workers in the IT field undercutting all the westerners with cheap bids for jobs, this is losing jobs without even having anyone to move from a place to another.

 

[Gustav3Y]

I think it's a bit of both. Westerners have grown pretty soft since the petroleum age came into full force (post-WW2). Couple that with the genius idea of capital owners to export factories to poor countries (outsourcing) and import cheap slave-wage labor to work in dirty jobs (insourcing) and the end result is globalization, loosening of borders, and mass migration into wealthy countries. The political consequences of these changes are the toxic ideologies of multiculturalism/diversity/inclusivity. The end result will be social fracturization and chaos, and possibly even the self-suicide of certain nations/cultures as they are demographically replaced, while the capital-owner class gets wealthier.

I am not a socialist by any means, but Marx sort of predicted this. He called it financial capitalism and described it as an endless chase to cheaper labor, a race to the bottom.

Yes, but major outsourcing did not happen until the 1980s.
After the British Empire fell and the subsequent years after the WW2 when due to US and USSR pressure Europe was smacked into loosing all colonial powers, a really big subject usually diluted by comments like the US helped with Marshal Plan.

Now like I said before there is also outsourcing of tons of jobs that actually do not requite goods or people moment, for example many companies have their call centers or customer service centers in other countries, this way then can be paid cheap because expenses are "cheap" in their country of origin.
Many programmers work remotely also, outsourcing which can't really be seen like for example with clothes where you can see made in Bangladesh, Turkey, China, Vietnam, etc tag.
It get very subjective, while Made in Italy carries a lot of power, many eastern Europeans and Asians work there in the clothing industry. I have been told by someone that works there that not everyone is treated as slaves for making leather bags or clothing, some are paid very good, which suggests that not everyone in Italy is ready to sew just because there are some well paid jobs.
The new average western person doesn't fantasize about sewing all day long as a carer employed for this or that person.