Covid-19 Causing Irreversible Lung Fibrosis

[InChristAlone]

Maybe we are working off different definitions of 'theory'. I do agree that theories are not always aligned with facts - they can sometimes be inaccurate/mistaken/unscientific/unfounded/ contradicted by observable facts. I don't see facts and theories at opposite ends of the spectrum. AIUI, facts are always true - they are reality. Some theories as good as facts - known to be true.

"A fact is a thing that is known to be consistent with objective reality and can be proven to be true with evidence. ... The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability — that is whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience."​

Theories describe and/or explain reality. As you describe, a step removed. Some theories are bad - unfounded, contradicted by observable facts, etc. Some theories are pretty good for going on with - they explain and predict well-enough to be really useful, but will get improved or refined as we get more data. Some theories are so solidly tested and aligned with facts that there's no real uncertainty about them. Gravity might have some areas of uncertainty (is there a unifying theory that explains it and other large and small forces?), but at the basic level of masses attracting depending on distance, the basic theory is as good as fact.

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world."​

A bad or unscientific theory might have little to do with facts, but a good or scientific theory should line up with them reliably.

Yes and my objective reality might be different than someone else's objective reality. You can tell me a million pieces of evidence in favor of vaccines, it won't matter to my objective reality that they are harmful and that I can prove they are harmful for many people, so some may say "vaccines save lives" IT'S A FACT! And I could say "vaccines harm people" It's a fact! And both statements could be true depending on which evidence you look at. People don't like when you question science facts because they will say "sorry that can't be true because it isn't proven by scientific study" or that it has been disproven by scientific study. Facts are not truth, you can observe something in scientific study and you can present the evidence that it is true and then an opposite study might show the opposite results. How can you call it a fact then? It is just a conclusion. That is why I said science has many conclusions and theories. You are right that a good theory is well supported by many conclusions but still doesn't make it truth. People use fact as if it is truth when it is not. Same with theories. Have you ever considered that there are other theories on gravity? Probably not, but they are out there.

We can get into absolute truths but then we are talking philosophy and people can have their foundational beliefs smashed by those sort of discussions and get really pissed.

 

[InChristAlone]

Model, the efficacy of antibiotics wasn't in question, the thing is that if microbes were allowed to stay in the body with net gainz for the host, attacking them would make the user of the drug experience a mixture of good and bad effects, tipping in favor of the negative, which rarely occurs. It's usually all positive when there's no d3t0x, suggesting that they're not cleaning up unhealthy tissues, they're exploiting them for being weakened and possibly getting in the way of recovery.

The terrain phrase is poetic, but it has been invaded, it's no longer yours, it's shared territory and sometimes we have to find means of assisting the body in reclaiming it. It's not always susceptibility of the host to blame, there are grades of resistance and we can catch bugs being robust. When in doubt, there's a sport call'd sewage diving.

Where did I ever say don't assist the body in the face of a bad infection?

 

[LeeLemonoil]

We can get into absolute truths but then we are talking philosophy and people can have their foundational beliefs smashed by those sort of discussions and get really pissed.

Including yourself, mind.

 

[InChristAlone]

Including yourself, mind.

Yes and it is good to question your belief system, because you could be operating on a faulty belief system. Personally I hate debating with people who get all butt hurt when something that opposes mainstream science is brought up. They are typically the worst people to have a debate with they will just keep arguing that ScIeNcE ProVeS YoU WrOnG and blah blah blah. It's extremely annoying. If we all believed mainstream science we wouldn't be on this forum. And you would believe that fish oil is good for you, cholesterol is bad, SuGaR GiVeS YoU DiAbEtEs, serotonin is the happy neurotransmitter, and many many others.

 

[Amazoniac]

Where did I ever say don't assist the body in the face of a bad infection?

You wroted: 'Pathogens are not the cause of the disease' when the term means 'disease-producers'. If it's a misnomer, why bother taking antibiotics and assist it this way? The only reason would be to give the body a break from these mere consequences, but then if something is injurious to an extent that when lifted the body is capable of recovering, why would it not cause disease? And returning to the first arguments, how to explain single courses of antibiotics that work effortlessly? There are such cases and it's not through stress since there's relief until resolution. Infections are dangerous, should be regulated as drugs.

 

[InChristAlone]

You wroted: 'Pathogens are not the cause of the disease' when the term means 'disease-producers'. If it's a misnomer, why bother taking antibiotics and assist it this way? The only reason would be to give the body a break from these mere consequences, but then if something is injurious to an extent that when lifted the body is capable of recovering, why would it not cause disease? And returning to the first arguments, how to explain single courses of antibiotics that work effortlessly? There are such cases and it's not through stress since there's relief until resolution. Infections are dangerous, should be regulated as drugs.

Stagnant pond water can definitely kill you, but the germs are there because it's stagnant. Focus on pathways of elimination. If those cannot be helped then by all means get out the big guns to save a life. Depends on the infection.. flu and colds are nature's clean out. Abscesses need drained. Infected teeth need pulled. Pneumonia and tuberculosis would probably be saved by high dose vitamin C to break up mucus, which again the stagnant mucus is the cause of lung failure, if the lungs are severely scarred and damaged from smoking and air pollution then I'm very sorry, your chances of survival are slim even with health care. If it's a gut infection like SIBO that is typically caused by a leaky ileocecal valve letting poop come back into the small intestine, body work can get this leaky valve operating again. Other gut infections again are typically caused by poor elimination and overuse of antibiotics. Targeted probiotic use seems a better option, and again not being a pond water scum. In some cases maybe taking an antibiotic leads to complete recovery or what feels like a recovery, but many drugs seem to do this. Doesn't mean I will take the drug.

 

[Amazoniac]

Stagnant pond water can definitely kill you, but the germs are there because it's stagnant. Focus on pathways of elimination. If those cannot be helped then by all means get out the big guns to save a life. Depends on the infection.. flu and colds are nature's clean out. Abscesses need drained. Infected teeth need pulled. Pneumonia and tuberculosis would probably be saved by high dose vitamin C to break up mucus, which again the stagnant mucus is the cause of lung failure, if the lungs are severely scarred and damaged from smoking and air pollution then I'm very sorry, your chances of survival are slim even with health care. If it's a gut infection like SIBO that is typically caused by a leaky ileocecal valve letting poop come back into the small intestine, body work can get this leaky valve operating again. Other gut infections again are typically caused by poor elimination and overuse of antibiotics. Targeted probiotic use seems a better option, and again not being a pond water scum. In some cases maybe taking an antibiotic leads to complete recovery or what feels like a recovery, but many drugs seem to do this. Doesn't mean I will take the drug.

When a course of antibiotic solves the problem in a short time frame, you attribute the success to what?

 

[InChristAlone]

When a course of antibiotic solves the problem in a short time frame, you attribute the success to what?

I know why you keep asking, you want me to say the antibiotics killed the germ and the germ was the problem. But you are ignoring everything else I'm saying. Yes it will kill the microbes that seem to be causing the symptoms. Yes bacteria are part of the germ theory and for sure many of them are very actively pathogenic. It is still the terrain. Someone with a good healthy microbiome might not even get food poisoning. If you have no microbiome you will continue to need to wipe out pathogens unless you can somehow create a better balance. But thats not what this convo was about you just wanted me to say that it was the germ. Since I have changed my thinking on germs I've been tolerating more and more resistant starch than EVER. I used to be like nope those feed the BAD BUGS. It may be that I am getting more sunshine than ever in my life.

 

[Amazoniac]

I know why you keep asking, you want me to say the antibiotics killed the germ and the germ was the problem. But you are ignoring everything else I'm saying. Yes it will kill the microbes that seem to be causing the symptoms. Yes bacteria are part of the germ theory and for sure many of them are very actively pathogenic. It is still the terrain. Someone with a good healthy microbiome might not even get food poisoning. If you have no microbiome you will continue to need to wipe out pathogens unless you can somehow create a better balance. But thats not what this convo was about you just wanted me to say that it was the germ. Since I have changed my thinking on germs I've been tolerating more and more resistant starch than EVER. I used to be like nope those feed the BAD BUGS. It may be that I am getting more sunshine than ever in my life.

Yes, this way you realize that it doesn't make sense to discard microbes as cause of disease in spite of grades of resistance/virulence and existence of cooperating ones.
It may be that models don't get sick.

 

[schultz]

[emphasis is mine]
Serotonin: Energy, degeneration and aging - Ray Peat's Newsletter, July 2019
"Mice have also been altered to eliminate the genes that make both the peripheral and the brain tryptophan hydroxylase that makes serotonin. The double knock-out mice completely lacking serotonin were, surprisingly, "viable and normal in appearance" (Savelieva, et al, 2008), but they did differ in behavior and resistance to stress. They were less likely to die from sepsis and from toxin-induced lung fibrosis (Zhang, et al., 2018, 2017)."

Serotonin, coherence and aging - Ray Peat's Newsletter, September 2019
When metabolic energy is failing, as in hypothyroidism, muscles become easily fatigued, and take up excess water, an the barrier structure is loosened, allowing macromolecules and ATP and other metabolites to leak out, while extraneous substances enter. Typical muscle enzymes such as lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase appear in the bloodstream in typical hypothyroid myopathy, and heart proteins, including a particular form of lactic dehydrogenase and a muscle protein, troponin, appear in the blood after a heart stress of fatigue combined with hypothyroidism or systemic inflammation. In the case of the liver, its specific enzymes appear in the blood when the cells' barrier function is weakened by stress. The "immune system" regularly deals with substances that are released by stressed cells.


In this recent COVID-19 study (here) 54 of the 54 patients who died had sepsis. Troponin, lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase were all significantly elevated in the patients that died.

This paper (below) on sepsis discusses a general energy failure in sepsis. This, they say, leads to a "failure of barriers", or things becoming "leaky" as Ray would say. I mentioned recently in another thread how lipopolysaccharide can cause a cell to become leaky due to its soap like quality of its sugar/lipid structure. Ray talked about this in a KMUD episode and I have put a quote below. I don't really understand the difference between viral sepsis and bacterial sepsis (or whether viral sepsis is actually a thing), but the main problem seems to be a failure of energy. Basically what Ray has been talking about for the last 50 years. Finally, whenever I think of impaired mitochondria, I am reminded of this study where alcoholic rats had decreased mitochondrial function. When they were deficient in PUFA this effect was reversed, which is quite remarkable. We are all familiar with alcohol increasing translocation of gut bacteria.


Sepsis: Current Dogma and New Perspectives - PubMed
Patients and animals with severe sepsis have defective function in the electron transport chain (ETC). Sepsis impairs ETC complexes I II,III, and IV (Singer, 2014; Singer, 2007; Brealey et al., 2002; Levy and Deutschman, 2007), findings that correlate with nitric oxide production and might reflect a sepsis-induced generation of reactive oxygen species and other free radicals. Complexes II and III activity in the quadriceps was the earliest mitochondrial abnormality noted in septic rats—all complexes became impaired at later time points (Peruchi et al., 2011). Complex IV dysfunction also occurs early in rodents and can act as asensor—increased binding of free radicals such as NO can block the access of oxygen to the heme moiety and shut down oxidative phosphorylation (Levy and Deutschman, 2007; Verma et al.,2009). In addition to impaired electron transport, mitochondrial membranes become permeable, resulting in the leakage of cytochrome c, mitochondrial DNA, and other substrates from the mitochondria into the cytosol. Damaged mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA can be removed by autophagy or can leak out of cells, eventually accumulating in the bloodstream as DAMPs thatinteract with innate immune cells (Nakahira et al., 2011; Zhanget al., 2010). Under normal conditions, mitochondria can be replaced through biogenesis, which is enhanced in early experimental sepsis (Haden et al., 2007) but becomes deficient later in the time course (C.S.D., data not shown)

Consider that the metabolic consequences of cellular activation are costly, requiring high rates of glycolysis, protein synthesis, and ATP. For instance, in macrophages or dendritic cells, stimulation by endotoxin or HMGB1 increases glycolysis and enhances lactate production (Tannahill et al., 2013). O’Neill and colleagues, by using a metabolomic screen and microarray analysis, recently uncovered a shift from oxidative phosphorylation to glycolysis (Tannahill et al., 2013).

Thus, we propose that severe sepsis occurs when bioenergetic mechanisms within the cell fail, leading to intercellular barriers that fail, followed by failure of homeostatic interactions between organ systems.

Kmud: Bowel Endotoxin
Ray [approximately 10 minutes in] The whole structure of the cell, the cytoplasm, as it takes up water, instead of being fat-like and tending to exclude water and prefer to absorb fats, the introduction of this sugar connected to a fat acts like a soap and makes the cell tend to admit not only more water but pretty much anything that's in its environment. So the whole substance of the cell becomes kind spongey and leaky. When this starts affecting the whole organism that kind of change occurs all through the body. Once this stuff has passed through the lining of the intestine and crosses across capillaries and gets into the blood stream, then the endotoxin starts doing the same thing to any cell it comes to. And so it will leak out of capillaries, no matter where it is in the blood stream, if the liver hasn't filtered it. So if it happens to reach the brain, it will cause the brain capillaries to leak whatever is in the blood stream. So it can contribute to MS. And the endotoxin leaking into the brain does the same thing. It triggers the release of nitric oxide and a whole chain of chemical reactions. Every organ has its particular way of responding to the endotoxin, but there's a generality, no matter what the organ, there are basic defense reactions that will occur not only to endotoxin but to any radical threat to the survival of the cell so that x-rays and gamma rays will produce essentially the same kind of change in brain cells or bowel cells that endotoxin does. So if you're over exposed to x-rays, for example, you'll get constipated, the same way that over exposure to endotoxin will cause constipation.

 

[LLight]

In this recent COVID-19 study (here) 54 of the 54 patients who died had sepsis. Troponin, lactate dehydrogenase and creatine kinase were all significantly elevated in the patients that died.

This paper (below) on sepsis discusses a general energy failure in sepsis. This, they say, leads to a "failure of barriers", or things becoming "leaky" as Ray would say. I mentioned recently in another thread how lipopolysaccharide can cause a cell to become leaky due to its soap like quality of its sugar/lipid structure.

I feel obliged to repost this study:

Cathelicidin preserves intestinal barrier function in polymicrobial sepsis | Critical Care | Full Text

"Our data suggested that 1alpha, 25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 but not cholecalciferol is a potential therapeutic agent for treating sepsis."

"Furthermore, we assessed the therapeutic use of the active form and the inactive form of VD3 in our CLP model. We observed that administration of calcitriol (an active form of VD3) but not cholecalciferol (an inactive form of VD3) after the onset of sepsis led to a better survival outcome in CLP mice. In line with recent publications, high-dose VD3 (cholecalciferol, inactive form of VD3) did not improve the survival outcomes of critically ill patients in terms of 90-day mortality [50]. Since hepatic cytochrome P450 (CYPs) play an essential role in the conversion of VD3 into 25-hydroxyVD3 together with additional evidence showing that hepatic CYPs dysfunctions are linked to sepsis [51,52,53], we further examined the functions of the liver after the onset of sepsis. Our results demonstrated that CLP induced hepatic damage and the associated downregulations of hepatic CYPs at mRNA level, resulting in decreased serum intermediate and active VD3. Fortunately, the administration of calcitriol (an active form of VD3) can bypass hepatic biotransformation of cholecalciferol into 25-hydroxyVD3 mediated by CYP system, directly entering the circulatory system and exerting the beneficial effects. Taken together, we confirmed that the active form of VD3 but not the inactive form of VD3 is a therapeutic drug in our CLP model. Noticeably, the latter worsened 7-day mortality and the associated symptoms in CLP-operated mice, the mechanism of which remains unclear."

By the way, dry fasting might increase cathelicidin.

And the virus has been found in stools, maybe more consistenly than in the throat.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yes, this way you realize that it doesn't make sense to discard microbes as cause of disease in spite of grades of resistance/virulence and existence of cooperating ones.
It may be that models don't get sick.

No, very clearly no. I was a kid who got strep throat a lot and was put on antibiotics back to back at times. I had IBS-C because of it. I failed exams because of IBS. So I do think when you can get things right in your life you will experience resistance to infections as those things are very much in the past for me. I may even stop taking vitamin C to see how it goes.

 

[Amazoniac]

Spoiler: Toxic deviation from the topic

No, very clearly no. I was a kid who got strep throat a lot and was put on antibiotics back to back at times. I had IBS-C because of it. I failed exams because of IBS. So I do think when you can get things right in your life you will experience resistance to infections as those things are very much in the past for me. I may even stop taking vitamin C to see how it goes.

I don't think that you could replicate your experience with antibiotics if you were sterile, showing that complication are through microbes, how can they not produce disease as you suggested? It's difficult to blame it on a prone environment because during and after the course nothing else other than their composition should've changed much.

There are travelers who are extremely wealthy, eat something prepared with poor hygiene practices, contract an infection and have their lives flipped upside down; there are experiments with microbial innoculation in robust animals that decline rapidly after the wards; and so on. All showing that you don't need to be debilitated to get sick from this kind of pathogen.

And in case you were indeed susceptible (which we know that it's common to have predisposing factors that decrease the resistance), you can fix the initial susceptibility and remain stuck.

I've witnessed many times you brushing these off (germs are made inside, viruses don't exist, microbes don't cause disease) as if the problem was always internal, which isn't true. There are people with everything fine and the only thing preventing their improvement is infections because once these are lifted they revert to normal without effort. Regulated are dangerous, should be infections as drugs.


In case fiber was lacking in the diet and now you're tolerating resistant starch, it would be interesting to know how that goes, ascourgic acid could've been acidifying the intestines in place of short-chain fatty acids from fermentable carbs.

 

[RealNeat]

I feel obliged to repost this study:


By the way, dry fasting might increase cathelicidin.

And the virus has been found in stools, maybe more consistenly than in the throat.

So sun only? What other options are there for it most on the market is cholecalciferol d3.

 

[InChristAlone]

Spoiler: Toxic deviation from the topic

I don't think that you could replicate your experience with antibiotics if you were sterile, showing that complication are through microbes, how can they not produce disease as you suggested? It's difficult to blame it on a prone environment because during and after the course nothing else other than their composition should've changed much.

There are travelers who are extremely wealthy, eat something prepared with poor hygiene practices, contract an infection and have their lives flipped upside down; there are experiments with microbial innoculation in robust animals that decline rapidly after the wards; and so on. All showing that you don't need to be debilitated to get sick from this kind of pathogen.

And in case you were indeed susceptible (which we know that it's common to have predisposing factors that decrease the resistance), you can fix the initial susceptibility and remain stuck.

I've witnessed many times you brushing these off (germs are made inside, viruses don't exist, microbes don't cause disease) as if the problem was always internal, which isn't true. There are people with everything fine and the only thing preventing their improvement is infections because once these are lifted they revert to normal without effort. Regulated are dangerous, should be infections as drugs.


In case fiber was lacking in the diet and now you're tolerating resistant starch, it would be interesting to know how that goes, ascourgic acid could've been acidifying the intestines in place of short-chain fatty acids from fermentable carbs.

I'm not sure why being wealthy has anything to do with infection risk? Being wealthy could still mean being an addict or alcoholic or otherwise unhealthy person. Plus going abroad or on travels sometimes means going to places with terrible sanitation. I have stated multiple times lack of sanitation can be deadly. Hygiene is still important. Did you read any of the quotes I posted? I don't understand why I'm the one being attacked when this information is from people way smarter than me. I'm just the messenger. But I wouldn't have formed these connections without also observing states of health and raising two kids who so far have needed no medical care. And are completely unvaccinated. I realize when someone questions germ theory they will be attacked, but it's not like I have no experience with health.

As far as animals getting the sickness they were expected to get when given a bad germ... Please I'd like to see these studies. How was the germ given? Are these lab animals ones who typically live a miserable life? Do you see vulchers who eat rotten meat falling out of the sky from germs? Or any other wild animal?? Even deer supposedly carrying a high load of spirochetes are still reproducing like mad. Are wild animals needing to come to their local veterinarian for access to antibiotics and drugs? Lol That's actually a funny image. Might see that in a Disney film soon.

Any acid taken by mouth is neutralized by bicarbonate after leaving the stomach. Acid in the large intestine is from fermentation. Dr Kellogg remember?

 

[LLight]

So sun only? What other options are there for it most on the market is cholecalciferol d3.

Honestly I'm not sure what to do but yes, sun should be a priority.

Coronavirus and the Sun: a Lesson from the 1918 Influenza Pandemic

 

[Amazoniac]

Spoiler: Still toxic, better avoided as drugs

I'm not sure why being wealthy has anything to do with infection risk? Being wealthy could still mean being an addict or alcoholic or otherwise unhealthy person. Plus going abroad or on travels sometimes means going to places with terrible sanitation. I have stated multiple times lack of sanitation can be deadly. Hygiene is still important. Did you read any of the quotes I posted? I don't understand why I'm the one being attacked when this information is from people way smarter than me. I'm just the messenger. But I wouldn't have formed these connections without also observing states of health and raising two kids who so far have needed no medical care. And are completely unvaccinated. I realize when someone questions germ theory they will be attacked, but it's not like I have no experience with health.

As far as animals getting the sickness they were expected to get when given a bad germ... Please I'd like to see these studies. How was the germ given? Are these lab animals ones who typically live a miserable life? Do you see vulchers who eat rotten meat falling out of the sky from germs? Or any other wild animal?? Even deer supposedly carrying a high load of spirochetes are still reproducing like mad. Are wild animals needing to come to their local veterinarian for access to antibiotics and drugs? Lol That's actually a funny image. Might see that in a Disney film soon.

Any acid taken by mouth is neutralized by bicarbonate after leaving the stomach. Acid in the large intestine is from fermentation. Dr Kellogg remember?

Wealthy and healthy in prolactinese are interchangeable, but you're going to skip that part anyway.

At the same time that you deny them as cause, you claim that lack of sanitation can be deadly and hygiene counts? Come on.

And what's there to worry? It's on you. After all, they either don't exist, are made inside or don't produce disease.
Your example included an animal with outstanding defenses against germs:
- How Can Vultures Eat Rotten Roadkill And Survive?
Again, it's grades of resistance versus virulence. It comes at a cost for them, they had to adapt to survive, it's a risky thing (they prefer when food is fresh, I asked one). Try to make a human do the same and fare well on it. Your picture of progression of infections is having birds falling from the sky like raindrops? Because it would explain your stance.

I'm not denying the metabolic resistance factor, it's you that insist on shunning the other side, making it seem that issues always stem from lack of resistance. The problem in disregarding is that addressing them directly is out of question until it becomes evident and critical, however sometimes there's nothing to fix in the metabolism, it was supposed to be operating fine if it wasn't for the established infection. Antibiotic use (whether natural or perhaps synthetic) is justified, but there are risks and they're overused. Yet, you could be remedying yourself without realizing.
If veterans provided wild animals the purging foods with antimicrobial properties that they seek when sick, I bet they wouldn't wander in nature searching for them.

For some reason to adopt a theory you think that you have to let go of the other instead of holding onto what's relevant from each, it seems to be a way of moving past attempts that haven't yielded desired results. Grabbing a new theory is like a rite of passage.


Neutralization is a fair point that I forgot, but it will function like short-chain fatty acids nevertheless (by drawing fluids, disrupting bacterial integrity, and so on), in the same way that organic acids given by mouth have been shown to affect all the extension. If you saved winking time to think about your approach or visit the thread, you'd realize that a megadose will discharge the bowel, which renews the content and keeps the limited fermentable carbs available from being used up: it's acidifying, but from a different mechanism than I had in mind.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Yes and it is good to question your belief system, because you could be operating on a faulty belief system. Personally I hate debating with people who get all butt hurt when something that opposes mainstream science is brought up. They are typically the worst people to have a debate with they will just keep arguing that ScIeNcE ProVeS YoU WrOnG and blah blah blah. It's extremely annoying. If we all believed mainstream science we wouldn't be on this forum. And you would believe that fish oil is good for you, cholesterol is bad, SuGaR GiVeS YoU DiAbEtEs, serotonin is the happy neurotransmitter, and many many others.

lol sounds like you are the one getting butt hurt.
Operating on a faulty belief system...
Whos to decide whats faulty or not?
You are wrong about this forum not being here for science aswell.
There is science that shows fish oil is bad, serotonin is bad etc etc... there will always be good and bad science. And even inbetween science. You have to use your brain and make up your mind what works for you. And even then it might only work for you. So arguing with the rest of the world that you know best is pointless. The flaw in human thinking is that they think they know best and that their answer is the right above everyone else. Then they preach.
You actually sound like that though. Like a vegan.
Just like you find people frustrating I woild assume people find you annoying and frustrating. But that never occured to you?

 

[tara]

Hi sugarbabe,
This got long - it's OK if you can't be bothered with reading it.

People can believe in the flat earth theory if they so choose, doesn't make it a fact, but that's why the word "theory" comes after flat earth. "Flat Earth Theory". "Germ Theory". There's also "evolutionary Theory".

Yes, evolutionary theory, gravitational theory, electro-magnetic theory ...
Or are you using some slang meaning of 'theory' like definitely not true?

You can accept evolution as a fact but it is not a fact, it is a theory. I personally hated how in my classes evolution is taught as factual, doesn't mean we shouldn't be exposed to the ideas, but we need to keep an open mind about our distant past.

I do think science should always be taught with some context - this is the best model we have at this time, but as we gain knowledge, we might improve the model. You can test for yourself that gravity works. Subatomic physics is at more of a remove - harder to test.

Fair point that there are differences between theories in physics and biology.
But some things in biology are pretty well verified too.

There are uncertainties and different hypothesis about details of evolution, but that there is evolution I consider to be well-established fact.
One definition, fairly basic:

"Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations."

That leaves a lot of scope for investigating mechanisms and details.

People argue whether the heart is a pump for instance, science hasn't proven one way or another, but we generally understand what the heart does.

What we generally understand is that the heart pumps. It might do other things too, but that's the main one. If it stops pumping, we've got a good chance of dying.

You could think of it like this; Mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but don’t cause the pool to become stagnant. Its the same way with germs.

Sure.
And if you've got stagnant water you can't eliminate, mosquitoes can be a problem that needs dealing with. Especially if the mozzies are carrying malaria or dengue or ross river virus. I think this is where it's worth approaching infectious diseases from both angles - both terrain and limiting infection when people are vulnerable and occasionally antibiotics etc.
Addressing terrain would considering whether there is stagnant water that can be cleaned up without too much harm, and attending to basic needs like nourishment. Addressing infection might be putting nets over the cots and sometimes taking anti-malarial substances, etc.

Taking antibiotics for a tooth infection seems to stop some of the intense throbbing pain, but it is not even clearing out the infection in the tooth.

It's well known that antibiotics cannot easily reach some areas - eg tooth abcesses. But what they can do is help prevent the rest of the body being overwhelmed. I have people in my life who would probably be dead without anti-biotics. Sure, they might have given them some long-term negative side-effects. But they would have been irrelevant if they hadn't survived the week.

I don't believe we 'catch disease', I believe it is created in our body. It is not a sick person's fault, but they could learn how to create healthy conditions in their body. Germs do not cause disease, disease causes germs.

Did you ever use that turpentine that was under discussion a while ago? Its purpose was to kill gut microbes to reduce endotoxin in the system, right? Isn't that because you think that some microbes can produce anti-metabolic toxins, and you'd rather have fewer of them?

I don't believe we 'catch disease', I believe it is created in our body. It is not a sick person's fault, but they could learn how to create healthy conditions in their body. Germs do not cause disease, disease causes germs.

Do you mean that you think it's not worth anyone taking any precautions with COVID-19? How cautious would you personally be around an ebola infection?

 

[tara]

Yes and my objective reality might be different than someone else's objective reality.

That's not the definition of objective I work off .
We have different viewpoints, so we'll see different things.
The idea that reality is reality regardless of who's looking at it is fundamental to conducting science.
(With maybe some issues related to some not terribly relevant aspects of physics -wave/particle nature of light, Relativity, ...)

Facts are not truth, you can observe something in scientific study and you can present the evidence that it is true and then an opposite study might show the opposite results. How can you call it a fact then? It is just a conclusion. That is why I said science has many conclusions and theories. You are right that a good theory is well supported by many conclusions but still doesn't make it truth. People use fact as if it is truth when it is not.

Looks like another definition issue - AIUI, we might be mistaken about facts.
But facts are true, otherwise they are not facts.
People can come to mistaken conclusions for various reasons, such as poor logic, or weaknesses in study design, or unforeseen errors in data collection, or not understanding enough about the context to interpret the results, or failing to look at the evidence, or statistical anomalies, etc.