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haidut

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@haidut I find my self urinating A LOT throughout the day and I remember you saying somewhere aldosterone as a cause...anyway to mitigate aldosterone specifically (besides salt) - also experiencing diffuse hair shedding so I assume I am having soft tissue calcification as well

Well, pregnenolone, progesterone and cyproheptadine are all aldosterone antagonists. Urinating often can also be high adrenaline. Restricting liquids may also help. The purpose of urination when under stress/cold to increase blood volume and raise temps and blood supply to organs.
 

Milena

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I take spironolactone, 50mg daily, to stop my legs swelling and, after a couple of days without taking it, my feet become uncomfortable and walking makes me aware of every part of my foot and not in a good way. I've run out at the moment.
I tried cypro (1mg morning and evening) but seemed to get a rebound effect after 1 couple of months where I swelled up and got a lot of arthritis pain in the joints of my hands. I can't swear it was the cypro but perhaps it dropped my cortisol too low.

I am sitting here with sore feet at the moment and ask if anyone knows if there are any causes that spironolactone treats but cypro doesn't. Or perhaps my cypro dose too high as I was taking spiro and cypro at the same time. Would cypro be a reasonable replacement for spironolactone in the short-term?

I have made great strides in improving my liver function over the last year so perhaps the adrenal cortex should be my next target. I know aldosterone is produced in the outer part which is the first to recover after damage. Does anyone know or can speculate as to whether the interior part of the adrenals moderates the production of aldosterone?
Many thanks in advance for help. I do get lost in the highly specific biochemical discussions.

BTW I did read this from Ray Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging and tried salt for a while- no idnetifiable beneficial effect but maybe my experiment was pants.
Also read this - subsequent to reading Ray's references - Aldosterone in Chronic Kidney and Cardiac Disease.
 
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Travis

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I take spironolactone, 50mg daily, to stop my legs swelling and, after a couple of days without taking it, my feet become uncomfortable and walking makes me aware of every part of my foot and not in a good way. I've run out at the moment.
I tried cypro (1mg morning and evening) but seemed to get a rebound effect after 1 couple of months where I swelled up and got a lot of arthritis pain in the joints of my hands. I can't swear it was the cypro but perhaps it dropped my cortisol too low.

I am sitting here with sore feet at the moment and ask if anyone knows if there are any causes that spironolactone treats but cypro doesn't. Or perhaps my cypro dose too high as I was taking spiro and cypro at the same time. Would cypro be a reasonable replacement for spironolactone in the short-term?

I have made great strides in improving my liver function over the last year so perhaps the adrenal cortex should be my next target. I know aldosterone is produced in the outer part which is the first to recover after damage. Does anyone know or can speculate as to whether the interior part of the adrenals moderates the production of aldosterone?
Many thanks in advance for help. I do get lost in the highly specific biochemical discussions.

BTW I did read this from Ray Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging and tried salt for a while- no idnetifiable beneficial effect but maybe my experiment was pants.
Also read this - subsequent to reading Ray's references - Aldosterone in Chronic Kidney and Cardiac Disease.
What's the spironolactone used for? Are you taking this the prevent hair loss or to lower blood pressure?
 

Milena

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What's the spironolactone used for? Are you taking this the prevent hair loss or to lower blood pressure?

Hi Travis
I've been prescribed it but getting a definitive answer has proved difficult. It's not for hair-loss (but my hair has grown thinner over the time I've been taking it - female here BTW) I didn't see the prescribing head consultant for a couple of years but he prescribed it for symptoms of night-waking and slightly high blood pressure (130/90) along with amitriptylene (low dose for smooth muscle relaxation, apparently - no longer taking the 'trip'). One of his undelerling Rheumatology consultants and also my GP said they didn't know why it was prescribed. Another consultant said it was for water retention and used over Fusemide "because it releases more water". :roll:

I had to search the net myself. At that time there wasn't much literature available for its use except a small quote saying the old drug was now coming in for edema and reduction of heart problems apart from its use for male to female transition. There is a lot more now. I had extreme salt-wasting, lips , skin sans-sweat and had to put that into the mix as no-one was willing to diagnose that either - overt salt-wasting is no longer a problem.
I am guessing that it is being prescribed to prevent edema and heart complications from that and slightly high blood pressure. I certainly have unpleasant edema in my lower legs if I miss the 50mg for a couple of days. It hasn't affected my blood pressure in an obvious manner and hasn't increased daytime urine output. I still have symptoms of edema in my second toe so the underlying problem is not being resolved.

Been net-trawling but not a doctor or biologist!
 

Travis

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Hi Travis
I've been prescribed it but getting a definitive answer has proved difficult. It's not for hair-loss (but my hair has grown thinner over the time I've been taking it - female here BTW) I didn't see the prescribing head consultant for a couple of years but he prescribed it for symptoms of night-waking and slightly high blood pressure (130/90) along with amitriptylene (low dose for smooth muscle relaxation, apparently - no longer taking the 'trip'). One of his undelerling Rheumatology consultants and also my GP said they didn't know why it was prescribed. Another consultant said it was for water retention and used over Fusemide "because it releases more water". :roll:

I had to search the net myself. At that time there wasn't much literature available for its use except a small quote saying the old drug was now coming in for edema and reduction of heart problems apart from its use for male to female transition. There is a lot more now. I had extreme salt-wasting, lips , skin sans-sweat and had to put that into the mix as no-one was willing to diagnose that either - overt salt-wasting is no longer a problem.
I am guessing that it is being prescribed to prevent edema and heart complications from that and slightly high blood pressure. I certainly have unpleasant edema in my lower legs if I miss the 50mg for a couple of days. It hasn't affected my blood pressure in an obvious manner and hasn't increased daytime urine output. I still have symptoms of edema in my second toe so the underlying problem is not being resolved.

Been net-trawling but not a doctor or biologist!

There's plenty of data on spironolactone. This had been developed in the '70s as an aldosterone antagonist but when it was shown to prevent hair loss the anti-androgenic effects became stressed more and more. I recently started eating salt again but am not feeling better-off for doing so. All natural foods have a Na⁺∶K⁺ ratio ranging from around 1∶7 to 1∶11—even beef—and over 99% of land mammals eat at this ratio. Only humans eat enough sodium to actually invert this ratio (some inner-city inhabitants are actually found to consume more sodium than potassium!) Of course sodium is necessary, but not so much to crowd-out the intracellular potassium. I always start ranting when this topic comes-up because I find it ridiculous that many people frame salt as being necessary for humans despite those aforementioned land animals and a few isolated human cultures eating none; I like eating salt as much as everyone but not so much as believe that one.

I wonder how much can be done with just the dietary Na⁺∶K⁺ ratio?
 

paymanz

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There's plenty of data on spironolactone. This had been developed in the '70s as an aldosterone antagonist but when it was shown to prevent hair loss the anti-androgenic effects became stressed more and more. I recently started eating salt again but am not feeling better-off for doing so. All natural foods have a Na⁺∶K⁺ ratio ranging from around 1∶7 to 1∶11—even beef—and over 99% of land mammals eat at this ratio. Only humans eat enough sodium to actually invert this ratio (some inner-city inhabitants are actually found to consume more sodium than potassium!) Of course sodium is necessary, but not so much to crowd-out the intracellular potassium. I always start ranting when this topic comes-up because I find it ridiculous that many people frame salt as being necessary for humans despite those aforementioned land animals and a few isolated human cultures eating none; I like eating salt as much as everyone but not so much as believe that one.

I wonder how much can be done with just the dietary Na⁺∶K⁺ ratio?
Beef has little sodium because sodium is extracellular ion and its lost because of bleeding of animal.

total Na and K in our body is similar
Composition of the human body - Wikipedia

we loss much more sodium through urine and sweating, so im wondering why they set requirement of potassium higher than sodium?!

Its extracellular ion ,its much easier to loss than potassium!

Btw we also get chlorine from salt, which also is essential nutrient.
 
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paymanz

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Primates loss much less sodium through sweating compared to us , but still i wish we could know whats their sodium intake.
 
J

jb116

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Beef has little sodium because sodium is extracellular ion and its lost because of bleeding of animal.

total Na and K in our body is similar
Composition of the human body - Wikipedia

we loss much more sodium through urine and sweating, so im wondering why they set requirement of potassium higher than sodium?!

Its extracellular ion ,its much easier to loss than potassium!

Btw we also get chlorine from salt, which also is essential nutrient.
Chloride I think is what you intended to write.
 

paymanz

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Chloride I think is what you intended to write.
Thanks, i dont know chemistry but i believe when salt is desolved in water it dissotiates into ions.

So sodium chloride becoms sodium and chlorine.

Sometimes they use both words interchangeably, to my knowledge.
 
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jb116

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Thanks, i dont know chemistry but i believe when salt is desolved in water it dissotiates into ions.

So sodium chloride becoms sodium and chlorine.

Sometimes they use both words interchangeably, to my knowledge.
I'm far from being a chemist but essentially chloride is more stable . Chlorine is unstable and oxidizing and does form toxic byproducts too. In essence it is toxic.
Dr. Peat's suggestion of not staying in chlorinated water for too long is a good one.
 

paymanz

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I'm far from being a chemist but essentially chloride is more stable . Chlorine is unstable and oxidizing and does form toxic byproducts too. In essence it is toxic.
Dr. Peat's suggestion of not staying in chlorinated water for too long is a good one.
I think you correct,thanks.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Travis

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we loss much more sodium through urine and sweating, so im wondering why they set requirement of potassium higher than sodium?!

Its extracellular ion ,its much easier to loss than potassium!
We also lose aspirin through the urine. A person could see increased urinary excretion as a way for the body of achieving homeostasis after excessive consumption. Besides a few isolated cases, all mammals had evolved their renin–aldosterone system while eating the Na⁺∶K⁺ ratios found in natural food—or about 1∶7.

I think the chlorine and chlorine are most precisely defined and delineated through their oxidation state: chloride is a water-soluble ion (charged atom) with a negative formal charge (Cl⁻); although the word 'chlorine' is used to refer mostly to the diatomic gas (Cl₂ or Cl–Cl), the single atom is also chlorine as long as it has no charge. Although atomic species has the same number of protons and neutrons, they are further differentiated by how many electrons they deviate from the ground state. Nearly all atomic species are given such designations, and besides having different superscripts they have different names. Perhaps the most well-known case is iron which has a multitude of redox states: ferrric iron (Fe³⁺), ferrous iron (Fe²⁺), and perferrous iron (Fe⁵⁺) [archaic]. But there are more many more redox states than there are names and the more uncommon ones lacking a historical designation are both written and verbalized by the element's name followed by a number—i.e. iron (I) and iron (IV)—and of course superscripts work too.
 
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paymanz

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We also lose aspirin through the urine. A person could see increased urinary excretion as a way for the body of achieving homeostasis after excessive consumption. Besides a few isolated cases, all mammals had evolved their renin–aldosterone system while eating the Na⁺∶K⁺ ratios found in natural food—or about 1∶7.

I think the chlorine and chlorine are most precisely defined and delineated through their oxidation state: chloride is a water-soluble ion (charged atom) with a negative formal charge (Cl⁻); although the word 'chlorine' is used to refer mostly to the diatomic gas (Cl₂ or Cl–Cl), the single atom is also chlorine as long as it has no charge. Although atomic species has the same number of protons and neutrons, they are further differentiated by how many electrons they deviate from the ground state. Nearly all atomic species are given such designations, and besides having different superscripts they have different names. Perhaps the most well-known case is iron which has a multitude of redox states: ferrric iron (Fe³⁺), ferrous iron (Fe²⁺), and perferrous iron (Fe⁵⁺) [archaic]. But there are more many more redox states than there are names and the more uncommon ones lacking a historical designation are both written and verbalized by the element's name followed by a number—i.e. iron (I) and iron (IV)—and of course superscripts work too.
In fasting state or in a zero potassium and zero sodium diet, which one we loss more in urine? K or Na?

For sweating i think its Na regardless of intake. And humans are biggest sweaters among all animals to my knowledge.
 

Travis

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In fasting state or in a zero potassium and zero sodium diet, which one we loss more in urine? K or Na?
Very difficult to determine, as nearly everyone consumes sodium chloride daily. But I bet you can find ratios excreted by animals eating natural foods, and perhaps even detailed information on the Yanomamo from the INTERSALT study. A person might think that a person eating the natural ratio of 1∶7 (sodium to potassium) found in foods would necessarily excrete more potassium; the high-salt sweat and urine of modern folk could be a cultural artefact.
 

haidut

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Don't know about T4 but even if T increases 11b-HSD1 it is also a relatively potent GR antagonist. So, given its anabolic effects on muscle, which has been shown to be almost exclusively to blocking cortisol, the overall effects of T seem to be anti-cortisol.
Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid
 

ddjd

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Don't know about T4 but even if T increases 11b-HSD1 it is also a relatively potent GR antagonist. So, given its anabolic effects on muscle, which has been shown to be almost exclusively to blocking cortisol, the overall effects of T seem to be anti-cortisol.
Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid
this is the study regarding t4 effects on 11b-HSD1
Effects of thyroid hormone (thyroxine) and testosterone on hepatic 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase mRNA and activity in pubertal hypothyroid ma... - PubMed - NCBI
 

GorillaHead

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I too will never understand how salt will lower aldosterone. If synthetic MR antagonists flush sodium out how does pushing sodium in provide the same effect.
 

aliml

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This study suggests that in mouse vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs), corticosterone acts through the MR to induce pro-calcification effects, and identifies 11β-HSD-inhibition as a novel potential treatment for vascular calcification."

In humans, there are two 11β-HSD isozymes:

EnzymeGeneCofactor DependenceExpressionReactions catalyzed
11β-HSD Type 1HSD11B1NADPH-dependentHighly expressed in key metabolic tissues including liver, adipose tissue, and the central nervous system.Reduces cortisone and oxidizes cortisol to cortisone.
11β-HSD Type 2HSD11B2NAD+-dependentExpressed in aldosterone-selective tissues, including kidneys, liver, lungs, colon, salivary glands, HSD2 neurons and placenta.Oxidizes cortisol to cortisone.

11β-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase - Wikipedia

Substances That May Decrease 11β-HSD Type 1 :
  • Chenodeoxycholic Acid / CDCA
  • Tauroursodeoxycholic Acid / TUDCA
  • Glycyrrhetinic Acid / Liquorice
  • Lactic Acid / Fruits & Honey
  • Fenretinide / Retinoids
  • Isotretinoin / Retinoids
  • Zinc Sulfate
  • Dichloroacetic Acid
  • Kainic Acid
  • Pirinixic Acid
  • Genistein
  • Resveratrol
  • Furosemide
  • Troglitazone
  • Clofibrate
  • Bezafibrate
  • Prednisolone
  • Piroxicam
  • Acetaminophen
https://rgd.mcw.edu/rgdweb/report/gene/main.html?id=737091

Substances That May Decrease 11β-HSD Type 2 :
  • Glycyrrhetinic Acid / Liquorice
  • Glycyrrhizic Acid / Liquorice
  • Sodium Chloride
  • Progesterone
  • Testosterone
  • Quercetin
  • Nicotine
  • Caffeine
  • Copper
  • Zinc
  • Glucose
  • Disulfiram
  • Itraconazole
  • Ketoconazole
  • Danazol
  • Fluoxymesterone
  • Oxymetholone
  • Indomethacin
  • Acetaminophen
  • Spironolactone
  • Zoledronic Acid
  • C60
https://rgd.mcw.edu/rgdweb/report/gene/main.html?id=737468
 
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