Copper (I) Vs Copper (II) With Zinc

[robertshaw]

Hi Joeyd, what brand of mct oil do you prefer? I'm not familiar with consuming mct oil.

In your experience how long does the copper niacin powder last in mct oil (as the correct copper(I) form)?

FYI, a few weeks ago Dave was kind enough to post a document from MitoSynergy which recommended keeping the powder in "Vitamin E oil" or a "sweet Almond type oil".
I doubt the almond oil is Peat approved. And coconut oil is too hard in the winter.
I'm trying to raise my copper with buckwheat, molasses, chocolate, prune juice.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Talking to Charlie, his recommendation was to keep the powder as dry as possible (so basically where ever you think that would be). he said once the powder gets wet it oxides to the copper 2, and then it isn't what you want to take. I have only had mine in the drier months, I will be interested to see how it does in summer humidity. I forgot to ask him if the fridge was a good or bad place for it, probably not a good place. I would say to keep the cap on as tight as possible, and maybe keep it in a bigger container with maybe a desiccant bag or something.
I think the powder is a good deal, but only if it lasts long enough to be one, I'm hoping.

If it turns to copper 2 once wet, how is this not happening as soon as it is ingested?

 

[Dave Clark]

If it turns to copper 2 once wet, how is this not happening as soon as it is ingested?

That was asked of Charlie in one of his seminars, and if I recall he said something to the effect that the stomach acid, or the stomach environment, coupled with the short amount of time it is in digestion, protects it from converting to copper two. I believe he may be right, after all, the copper 1 we get from food doesn't automatically turn to copper 2 in our body, to my knowledge.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

That was asked of Charlie in one of his seminars, and if I recall he said something to the effect that the stomach acid, or the stomach environment, coupled with the short amount of time it is in digestion, protects it from converting to copper two. I believe he may be right, after all, the copper 1 we get from food doesn't automatically turn to copper 2 in our body, to my knowledge.

I have read that the majority of copper in the body is stored in the copper 2 form. I’m skeptical about the danger of copper 2. The gut has a way of regulating how much is absorbed so it is hard to actually absorb large amounts. Isn’t it possible that copper is elevated in states of poor health because it is actually being used as a defense mechanism? Copper gets blamed for Alzheimer's but that is a bit like blaming sugar for diabetes.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Fat_Intakes_Associated_With_Cognitive_Decline

While I disagree with many of the parameters of the above study, it demonstrates well that generally high copper intake as well as high copper from supplements is relatively benign to the brain. When it comes to standard measurements of cognitive ability, the study points clearly to the unique combination of high saturated fat and trans fat and high copper as being uniquely detrimental. The effect of copper supplements on cognition seems to only be significantly detrimental in combination with this one particular diet. It is also worth pointing out that the high copper 1 diets with high trans / sat fat also show large decrease in cognition score. So the case that copper 1 is somehow superior looks flimsy to me here. If you look at the low fat scores for high copper vs low copper, you will see copper intake actually looks like it may be loosely helpful for cognition, whether from food or supplements. High saturated fat diets are known to be very inflammatory, as they increase endotoxic load more so than other fats. Gut inflammation = increased permeability, would likely disregulate the intestinal processing of copper and allow free copper in to the bloodstream which would promote even further inflammation. What the study seriously fails to look at is ratio of fats, the high trans and sat fat diets likely are consuming tons of pufa too which would amplify the potential inflammation greatly. Inflammation is multiplied through free copper and iron. It seems to me like the major initiators of inflammation (e.g. endotoxin) are far more responsible for raising free copper levels than copper 2 itself.

 

[Dave Clark]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Fat_Intakes_Associated_With_Cognitive_Decline

While I disagree with many of the parameters of the above study, it demonstrates well that generally high copper intake as well as high copper from supplements is relatively benign to the brain. When it comes to standard measurements of cognitive ability, the study points clearly to the unique combination of high saturated fat and trans fat and high copper as being uniquely detrimental. The effect of copper supplements on cognition seems to only be significantly detrimental in combination with this one particular diet. It is also worth pointing out that the high copper 1 diets with high trans / sat fat also show large decrease in cognition score. So the case that copper 1 is somehow superior looks flimsy to me here. If you look at the low fat scores for high copper vs low copper, you will see copper intake actually looks like it may be loosely helpful for cognition, whether from food or supplements. High saturated fat diets are known to be very inflammatory, as they increase endotoxic load more so than other fats. Gut inflammation = increased permeability, would likely disregulate the intestinal processing of copper and allow free copper in to the bloodstream which would promote even further inflammation. What the study seriously fails to look at is ratio of fats, the high trans and sat fat diets likely are consuming tons of pufa too which would amplify the potential inflammation greatly. Inflammation is multiplied through free copper and iron. It seems to me like the major initiators of inflammation (e.g. endotoxin) are far more responsible for raising free copper levels than copper 2 itself.

You probably have some good points there. I think just in general though, most minerals, not just copper, tend to be better when in the food form, which for me is why I will stick to copper 1 from foods or MitoSynergy. If the copper 2 turns out to not be much of a problem, that is great, but for now it seems easy enough to get sufficient copper 1 from foods, etc. So, pending further knowledge, I don't use the copper 2 supplements. I like the fact that people, like yourself, are digging into this for better understanding. We are never done learning.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

You probably have some good points there. I think just in general though, most minerals, not just copper, tend to be better when in the food form, which for me is why I will stick to copper 1 from foods or MitoSynergy. If the copper 2 turns out to not be much of a problem, that is great, but for now it seems easy enough to get sufficient copper 1 from foods, etc. So, pending further knowledge, I don't use the copper 2 supplements. I like the fact that people, like yourself, are digging into this for better understanding. We are never done learning.

Thanks, I agree food sources are likely the best way to get copper.

 

[Blue Water]

Is chocolate copper type 1?

 

[Dave Clark]

Is chocolate copper type 1?

I have read that the cacao is produced in small batch copper vessels, which would indicate copper2 However, there also may be natural copper in cacao. I would guess a bit of both. I wouldn't let the form of copper dissuade you from enjoying the antioxidants in cacao, as well as the great flavor. Nor would I let the oxalate concern me, life's to short to not enjoy cacao. Just my take on it.

 

[youngsinatra]

Zinc does not lower hepatic copper stores, but in sufficient amounts it will inhibit copper absorption from the diet.

Molybdenum is the key mineral for actually lowering hepatic copper stores by excretion of it in the urine and stool.

Zinc is a strategy to manipulate copper influx.
Molybdenum is a strategy to manipulate both copper influx and excretion in urine and poop.

 

[Hermes]

Zinc does not lower hepatic copper stores, but in sufficient amounts it will inhibit copper absorption from the diet.

Molybdenum is the key mineral for actually lowering hepatic copper stores by excretion of it in the urine and stool.

Zinc is a strategy to manipulate copper influx.
Molybdenum is a strategy to manipulate both copper influx and excretion in urine and poop.

Do you believe copper to be dangerous as Garrett Smith suggests?

 

[Motif]

Zinc does not lower hepatic copper stores, but in sufficient amounts it will inhibit copper absorption from the diet.

Molybdenum is the key mineral for actually lowering hepatic copper stores by excretion of it in the urine and stool.

Zinc is a strategy to manipulate copper influx.
Molybdenum is a strategy to manipulate both copper influx and excretion in urine and poop.

So could super low 24 h urine copper excretion have something to do with molybdenum?

 

[youngsinatra]

Do you believe copper to be dangerous as Garrett Smith suggests?

It‘s essential and not inherently toxic.

I have mixed feelings around copper and I haven‘t come to a sensible and comprehensive conclusion.
I have a feeling that the modern agricultural practices destroyed the soil microbiological diversity, leading to deficiency of organic minerals, while being sprayed with inorganic minerals as insecticides and pesticides. (like copper sulfate for example)

 

[Hermes]

But what's the deal with copper toxicity then? Some people say it's because of too little copper.

 

[youngsinatra]

But what's the deal with copper toxicity then? Some people say it's because of too little copper.

That doesn‘t make any sense to me. Toxicity is an excess of it.

 

[Hermes]

Does it have to do with intracellular and extracellular copper, maybe? I'm honestly not versed enough about it. I thought this was the argument for copper to 2 which is more bioavailable and actually penetrates the cell.

 

[Dave Clark]

That doesn‘t make any sense to me. Toxicity is an excess of it.

If someone has enough mercury {Hg} in them, the Hg will kick copper out of the cell, creating a 'deficiency' in the cell, which alters the ATP production, electron transport chain, internal copper based antioxidants like SOD, etc. But, the copper that gets kicked out goes into the free form and can either react to H2O2 and produce hydroxyl radicals or store in certain tissues and create toxicity. People have more Hg in them than they think, due to dental amalgams, vaccines, food supply, and a host of other consumable things we take for granted. If you research Hg, you would be amazed how many places it is, and how it can get into your system, and it doesn't leave your body very easily: How People are Exposed to Mercury | US EPA {sample search}.

 

[ddjd]

Homemade mitosynergy copper (copper 1) Does it really work??

I just saw this post from @Nebula, thought I would make a separate thread about it Has anyone else tried this??

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