Copper (I) Vs Copper (II) With Zinc

[Dave Clark]

In nature Copper is not consumed on it's own but is usually accompanied by Zinc, normally about four or five times as much. That gives us a bit of an anomally, what happens when we eat food which contain both, which do we actually absorb?

Just looked-up Almonds which are apparently quite high in copper, 100g contains: Cu: 0.96mg , Zn: 5.6mg. That is a Zn:Cu ratio of 5.8.

So if nature normally gives us copper and zinc combined why would we supplement seperately?

You certainly have a good point. Although, it has been established that certain minerals tend to inhibit other's absorption, like taking calcium supplements with iron, etc. Maybe, this is a problem more so with inorganic nutrients that are usually found in supplement form, and not so much with organic nutrients found in food. Personally, for me, if i know that certain minerals are antagonists, when taken in supplement form, I always space them apart. Regarding the almonds, even though the ratio of zinc/copper is good, how do we know which one we are actually absorbing most? This is mysterious, yet interesting stuff.

 

[NickC]

...
This is mysterious, yet interesting stuff.

Most interesting is the fact that many people out there have reported substantial benefits from taking supplements which contain both copper and zinc . Google 'benefits of copper' and you will see that most of the supplements recommend are pills containing both copper and zinc.

If they really are antagonists how come so many people benefit from taking both together?

 

[Dave Clark]

Most interesting is the fact that many people out there have reported substantial benefits from taking supplements which contain both copper and zinc . Google 'benefits of copper' and you will see that most of the supplements recommend are pills containing both copper and zinc.

If they really are antagonists how come so many people benefit from taking both together?

As a final thought, I believe most health authorities will agree that you will get benefit from those supplements, but they tend to stress that the ratios of zinc/copper be correct. Not sure exactly what that is, I have heard 15:1, 10:1, and even 8:1 of zinc/copper recommended. Many believe it must be individualized, some practitioners rely on hair analysis, others don't believe it is reliable. Two people could eat the exact same food, one could absorb 10 mg zinc, the other could absorb 2 mg zinc, maybe due to an inefficient gut/digestion. A lot of factors come into play, it gets complex.

 

[TreasureVibe]

What few know is that resveratrol converts copper (II) to copper (I) in the brain.

 

[ddjd]

What is the opinion here on the difference between Copper (II) and Copper (I)?

On the Bioavailable Copper FB group information is that copper (II) is toxic and supplementing with this does us more harm than good. Their suggestion is that only copper (I), in this case copper niacin, is the only safe form of copper to supplement.

However there are many youtube vids and others suggesting that taking both zinc and copper at the same time can have remarkable benefits. There are also suggestions that copper and zinc compete for absorbtion and therefore should not be taken at the same time.

The truth seems elusive on this subject, anyone have any thoughts.

I've been buying their powder for a while now and I've got to say it works. I don't trust the cheap blue copper.

You can buy a 1g vial of the pure powder and it lasts a year or so

 

[NickC]

I've been buying their powder for a while now and I've got to say it works. I don't trust the cheap blue copper.

You can buy a 1g vial of the pure powder and it lasts a year or so

According to their website dosage is up to 0.05mg so 1000/0.05 = 20,000 servings (over 50 years), have I got that correct?

What about taking Copper (I) and Nicotinamide (B3) together, I wonder if that would be absorbed the same as Copper Niacin.

 

[smith]

What few know is that resveratrol converts copper (II) to copper (I) in the brain.

That's pretty interesting. Anything else that does this?

 

[Dave Clark]

What few know is that resveratrol converts copper (II) to copper (I) in the brain.

Where did you find that information? Very interesting, but it seems most people on this forum are anti-resveratrol, I myself stopped using it. If I did use any again (and I probably get a small amount in my red wine) in supplement form, it would be a small dose, I think people possibly take too big of a dose.

 

[Mauritio]

I've been buying their powder for a while now and I've got to say it works. I don't trust the cheap blue copper.

You can buy a 1g vial of the pure powder and it lasts a year or so

How do you weigh it and what base powder do you mix it with ?

 

[sunraiser]

So how about a real life example, how would you reduce the excess unbound copper for this person: supplement zinc or supplement zinc + copper?

Plasma

Iron = 13.4umol/l [10.7 – 32.0] = 74.9ug/dl
Copper = 24.3 umol/L [12.5 – 25.0] = 154.7ug/dl
Zinc = 10.3 umol/L [11.5 – 20.0] = 67.3ug/dl​

Serum

Caeruloplasmin = 31.5mg/dl [18 - 34] = 31500ug/dl​

Ratios

Cu/Zn ratio = 2.36 [0.7 – 1.0]
Bound Copper = 94.5ug/dl = 61%
Unbound (free) Copper = 60.2ug/dl [5-15] = 39% [5 - 20]​

Just an immediate face value thought - has this person been supplementing copper?

The low iron and zinc values would suggest to stop supplementing copper and increase intake of iron and zinc rich foods, via craving.

You need iron to create ceruloplasmin and utilise copper and you need zinc to uptake vitamin A (another ceruloplasmin cofactor).
I also think ceruloplasmin can increase in certain non intake related situations.

Definitely cut the copper supps if they've ever been apparent, though.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I take plain old copper amino acid chelate... it has pretty much eliminated the popping joints and chronic aches that were brought on from taking too much zinc and not taking copper. As far as I can tell this form works just fine. Also, I think vitamin C would allow the conversion of copper II to copper I. Taking unbound copper II without any vitamin c sounds like it would be pretty stressful on the body.

Vitamin C and Copper:
Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism

 

[ddjd]

How do you weigh it and what base powder do you mix it with ?

the absolute best thing to do that ive found is add the powder to a couple of bottles of mct oil. only fill them half way and choose a bottle which has a good pourer. then shake vigorously before taking and a teaspoon at a time is about right

if you dont add to mct. it will go green and then blue within a few weeks to a few months.

oh and make sure the bottle is glass and not clear, i suspect its also sensitive to light, so green or brown glass better

 

[Mauritio]

the absolute best thing to do that ive found is add the powder to a couple of bottles of mct oil. only fill them half way and choose a bottle which has a good pourer. then shake vigorously before taking and a teaspoon at a time is about right

if you dont add to mct. it will go green and then blue within a few weeks to a few months.

oh and make sure the bottle is glass and not clear, i suspect its also sensitive to light, so green or brown glass better

Okay thanks man. But to make sure: You mix the powder into the MCT oil bottle and guess how much copper might be in a teaspoon or so ?


BTW look at that study . Copper 1 healing the liver for NAFLD. Finally some evidence.
The owner Charles Barker also talks a lot about Oxidizing ,Reduction and Mitochondria. He seems to be quite peaty (in some things) like claiming that Copper1 raises intracellular ATP and thats where its benfits come from...

A novel therapeutic drug (copper nicotinic acid complex) for non-alcoholic fatty liver. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Frankdee20]

I consume enough veal liver on a bi weekly basis to not worry about copper. It has several milligrams in it. I take about one to 2 thousand milligrams of C, and maybe 30 mg of Zinc gluconate daily.

 

[Dave Clark]

Okay thanks man. But to make sure: You mix the powder into the MCT oil bottle and guess how much copper might be in a teaspoon or so ?


BTW look at that study . Copper 1 healing the liver for NAFLD. Finally some evidence.
The owner Charles Barker also talks a lot about Oxidizing ,Reduction and Mitochondria. He seems to be quite peaty (in some things) like claiming that Copper1 raises intracellular ATP and thats where its benfits come from...

A novel therapeutic drug (copper nicotinic acid complex) for non-alcoholic fatty liver. - PubMed - NCBI

The powder comes with a microspoon, one scoop = 1 mg copper. Couldn't be much easier to take really. Why guess on the amount you are taking. I know Charlie talked about mixing the powder with oil when I talked to him, but he didn't have any measurements to suggest, so I figured why bother, the spoon works fine.

 

[Mauritio]

The powder comes with a microspoon, one scoop = 1 mg copper. Couldn't be much easier to take really. Why guess on the amount you are taking. I know Charlie talked about mixing the powder with oil when I talked to him, but he didn't have any measurements to suggest, so I figured why bother, the spoon works fine.

Thanks, thats cool I was hoping it was possible to avoid buying a miniscale . Any comment on expiration / the powder turning blue or green ?

 

[Dave Clark]

Thanks, thats cool I was hoping it was possible to avoid buying a miniscale . Any comment on expiration / the powder turning blue or green ?

Talking to Charlie, his recommendation was to keep the powder as dry as possible (so basically where ever you think that would be). he said once the powder gets wet it oxides to the copper 2, and then it isn't what you want to take. I have only had mine in the drier months, I will be interested to see how it does in summer humidity. I forgot to ask him if the fridge was a good or bad place for it, probably not a good place. I would say to keep the cap on as tight as possible, and maybe keep it in a bigger container with maybe a desiccant bag or something.
I think the powder is a good deal, but only if it lasts long enough to be one, I'm hoping.

 

[Mauritio]

Talking to Charlie, his recommendation was to keep the powder as dry as possible (so basically where ever you think that would be). he said once the powder gets wet it oxides to the copper 2, and then it isn't what you want to take. I have only had mine in the drier months, I will be interested to see how it does in summer humidity. I forgot to ask him if the fridge was a good or bad place for it, probably not a good place. I would say to keep the cap on as tight as possible, and maybe keep it in a bigger container with maybe a desiccant bag or something.
I think the powder is a good deal, but only if it lasts long enough to be one, I'm hoping.

Yes exactly. I might ask in the facebook group as there must be some reviews for that already.

 

[ddjd]

@Dave Clark @Mauritio yeah i was going to say check out the facebook group "bioavailable copper".
in terms of measurments. just calculate how much mct is in a teaspoon, then divide the total mct, by how much powder you use. pretty simple. but make sure to shake it thoroughly before spooning so its completely evenly dispersed in the bottle.

i really wouldnt bother risking keeping it in powder state. ive lost two batches and it gets pricey. it will eventually get some moisture and then youre stuffed.

 

[Mauritio]

@Dave Clark @Mauritio yeah i was going to say check out the facebook group "bioavailable copper".
in terms of measurments. just calculate how much mct is in a teaspoon, then divide the total mct, by how much powder you use. pretty simple. but make sure to shake it thoroughly before spooning so its completely evenly dispersed in the bottle.

i really wouldnt bother risking keeping it in powder state. ive lost two batches and it gets pricey. it will eventually get some moisture and then youre stuffed.

Okay thanks. So I guess I'll put some special kind of copper in a special kind of fat . If thats what it takes ...