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Copper (I) Vs Copper (II) With Zinc

Discussion in 'Minerals' started by NickC, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. NickC

    NickC Member

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    What is the opinion here on the difference between Copper (II) and Copper (I)?

    On the Bioavailable Copper FB group information is that copper (II) is toxic and supplementing with this does us more harm than good. Their suggestion is that only copper (I), in this case copper niacin, is the only safe form of copper to supplement.

    However there are many youtube vids and others suggesting that taking both zinc and copper at the same time can have remarkable benefits. There are also suggestions that copper and zinc compete for absorbtion and therefore should not be taken at the same time.

    The truth seems elusive on this subject, anyone have any thoughts.
     
  2. Mito

    Mito Member

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    https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/02/03/manage-copper-status/
     
  3. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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  4. Mito

    Mito Member

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    It’s been awhile since I listened to these but I thought he went through the zinc/copper biochemistry pretty throughly. Maybe it was better in this zinc one? https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/03/04/manage-zinc-status/
     
  5. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    So how about a real life example, how would you reduce the excess unbound copper for this person: supplement zinc or supplement zinc + copper?

    Plasma
    Iron = 13.4umol/l [10.7 – 32.0] = 74.9ug/dl
    Copper = 24.3 umol/L [12.5 – 25.0] = 154.7ug/dl
    Zinc = 10.3 umol/L [11.5 – 20.0] = 67.3ug/dl​
    Serum
    Caeruloplasmin = 31.5mg/dl [18 - 34] = 31500ug/dl​
    Ratios
    Cu/Zn ratio = 2.36 [0.7 – 1.0]
    Bound Copper = 94.5ug/dl = 61%
    Unbound (free) Copper = 60.2ug/dl [5-15] = 39% [5 - 20]​
     
  6. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    Will we get a cut from the consultation? :cool
     
  7. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    Yep, you can have 100% of nothing!

    This is just trying to help out others, there is nothing comercial about it.
     
  8. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    I’ll take it :greedy: (substitute ॐ for $)
     
  9. Mito

    Mito Member

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  10. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    Not sure I understand what he is saying there. My understanding is that the increased metallothionein will increase the amount of ingested copper bound into Caeruloplasmin, which for most is a good thing isn't it?
     
  11. Mito

    Mito Member

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    When you take a high dose of zinc, it increases metallothionein in the intestines, and then the copper in your diet can get bound up by that metallothionein and just like the zinc, can stay in the intestinal cell until the cells slough off into the feces. That copper then gets bound up in your intestinal cell, never gets absorbed into your body in the true sense, and this winds up going out in the feces.
     
  12. managing

    managing Member

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    WOuld blood donation help remove excess serum copper? I suppose the long term prospect would depend on where the excess serum Cu came from anyway.
     
  13. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    Lack of zinc in our foods due to use of pesticides leads, in the long term, to low levels of apo-caeruloplasmin which in turn means lower caeruloplasmin bound copper and higher unbound (toxic) copper.
     
  14. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    This ignores the fact that zinc deficiency leads to low caeruloplasmin and therefore excess unbound copper.
     
  15. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    Interesting suggestion blood donation, unfortunately here in the UK those over 66 are not allowed to donate blood. Are leeches available anywhere?
     
  16. Joeyd

    Joeyd Member

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  17. Dave Clark

    Dave Clark Member

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    According to Charles Barker from Mitosynergy, copper should be taken away from zinc, perhaps copper 1 in the AM, and zinc in the PM. Any copper not sourced from plants will build up as toxic copper, but copper (copper 1) that is plant sourced will be used inside the cell for the needed enzymes, etc. I think it is true for most minerals, plant sourced are better utilized. Check out Charles Barker's videos for better explanation of copper 1 and copper 2.
     
  18. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    Yes but apart from Charles Barker / Mitosynergy is there any other evidence to confirm his theory that the human body does not absorb Copper 2? Seems to me if enough Zinc to available then the human body will absorb copper 2 just fine, the problem comes about with zinc deficiency which then leads to the inability to absorb copper properly.
     
  19. Dave Clark

    Dave Clark Member

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    I could be wrong, but I think the issue isn't with 'absorption', but with 'utilization'. Copper 2 might be absorbed well, but it isn't utilized properly by the cells and tends to store/clog in the cell's membranes, hence becoming over-accumulating and toxic. Copper 1 being better bioavailable doesn't have that problem, so it can get used for production of superoxide dismutase, etc. Most of what I read, and what Charles said is that zinc will prevent the absorption of copper in any form, because it is an antagonist to copper. That is why he doesn't recommend high doses, or taking both at the same time. I still think plant based copper is the best and safest, less chance of toxicity.
     
  20. OP
    NickC

    NickC Member

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    In nature Copper is not consumed on it's own but is usually accompanied by Zinc, normally about four or five times as much. That gives us a bit of an anomally, what happens when we eat food which contain both, which do we actually absorb?

    Just looked-up Almonds which are apparently quite high in copper, 100g contains: Cu: 0.96mg , Zn: 5.6mg. That is a Zn:Cu ratio of 5.8.

    So if nature normally gives us copper and zinc combined why would we supplement seperately?
     
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