Copper (I) Vs Copper (II) With Zinc

[NickC]

What is the opinion here on the difference between Copper (II) and Copper (I)?

On the Bioavailable Copper FB group information is that copper (II) is toxic and supplementing with this does us more harm than good. Their suggestion is that only copper (I), in this case copper niacin, is the only safe form of copper to supplement.

However there are many youtube vids and others suggesting that taking both zinc and copper at the same time can have remarkable benefits. There are also suggestions that copper and zinc compete for absorbtion and therefore should not be taken at the same time.

The truth seems elusive on this subject, anyone have any thoughts.

 

[Mito]

What is the opinion here on the difference between Copper (II) and Copper (I)?

On the Bioavailable Copper FB group information is that copper (II) is toxic and supplementing with this does us more harm than good. Their suggestion is that only copper (I), in this case copper niacin, is the only safe form of copper to supplement.

However there are many youtube vids and others suggesting that taking both zinc and copper at the same time can have remarkable benefits. There are also suggestions that copper and zinc compete for absorbtion and therefore should not be taken at the same time.

The truth seems elusive on this subject, anyone have any thoughts.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/02/03/manage-copper-status/

 

[NickC]

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/02/03/manage-copper-status/

Some interesting bits in there but doesn't conclusively answer the Copper/Zinc question, primary purpose of the Podcast seems to be advertising.

 

[Mito]

Some interesting bits in there but doesn't conclusively answer the Copper/Zinc question, primary purpose of the Podcast seems to be advertising.

It’s been awhile since I listened to these but I thought he went through the zinc/copper biochemistry pretty throughly. Maybe it was better in this zinc one? https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/03/04/manage-zinc-status/

 

[NickC]

So how about a real life example, how would you reduce the excess unbound copper for this person: supplement zinc or supplement zinc + copper?

Plasma

Iron = 13.4umol/l [10.7 – 32.0] = 74.9ug/dl
Copper = 24.3 umol/L [12.5 – 25.0] = 154.7ug/dl
Zinc = 10.3 umol/L [11.5 – 20.0] = 67.3ug/dl​

Serum

Caeruloplasmin = 31.5mg/dl [18 - 34] = 31500ug/dl​

Ratios

Cu/Zn ratio = 2.36 [0.7 – 1.0]
Bound Copper = 94.5ug/dl = 61%
Unbound (free) Copper = 60.2ug/dl [5-15] = 39% [5 - 20]​

 

[Such_Saturation]

So how about a real life example, how would you reduce the excess unbound copper for this person: supplement zinc or supplement zinc + copper?

Plasma

Iron = 13.4umol/l [10.7 – 32.0] = 74.9ug/dl
Copper = 24.3 umol/L [12.5 – 25.0] = 154.7ug/dl
Zinc = 10.3 umol/L [11.5 – 20.0] = 67.3ug/dl​

Serum

Caeruloplasmin = 31.5mg/dl [18 - 34] = 31500ug/dl​

Ratios

Cu/Zn ratio = 2.36 [0.7 – 1.0]
Bound Copper = 94.5ug/dl = 61%
Unbound (free) Copper = 60.2ug/dl [5-15] = 39% [5 - 20]​

Will we get a cut from the consultation?

 

[NickC]

Will we get a cut from the consultation?

Yep, you can have 100% of nothing!

This is just trying to help out others, there is nothing comercial about it.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Yep, you can have 100% of nothing!

This is just trying to help out others, there is nothing comercial about it.

I’ll take it (substitute ॐ for $)

 

[Mito]

There are also suggestions that copper and zinc compete for absorbtion and therefore should not be taken at the same time.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/03/04/manage-zinc-status\
The real concern about too much zinc is in the case of interfering with other minerals, especially copper, through increased production of metallothionein. So earlier in this episode, I was saying how metallothionein is primarily responding to zinc and primarily increasing in order to take up zinc and control where it goes. But metallothionein can also bind to many other metals. And in the case of copper, this is the interaction that we have most clearly demonstrated as an adverse effect of zinc supplementation.

When you take a high dose of zinc, it increases metallothionein in the intestines, and then the copper in your diet can get bound up by that metallothionein and just like the zinc, can stay in the intestinal cell until the cells slough off into the feces. That copper then gets bound up in your intestinal cell, never gets absorbed into your body in the true sense, and this winds up going out in the feces.

 

[NickC]

Not sure I understand what he is saying there. My understanding is that the increased metallothionein will increase the amount of ingested copper bound into Caeruloplasmin, which for most is a good thing isn't it?

 

[Mito]

Not sure I understand what he is saying there. My understanding is that the increased metallothionein will increase the amount of ingested copper bound into Caeruloplasmin, which for most is a good thing isn't it?

”When you take a high dose of zinc, it increases metallothionein in the intestines, and then the copper in your diet can get bound up by that metallothionein and just like the zinc, can stay in the intestinal cell until the cells slough off into the feces. That copper then gets bound up in your intestinal cell, never gets absorbed into your body in the true sense, and this winds up going out in the feces.”

 

[managing]

WOuld blood donation help remove excess serum copper? I suppose the long term prospect would depend on where the excess serum Cu came from anyway.

 

[NickC]

WOuld blood donation help remove excess serum copper? I suppose the long term prospect would depend on where the excess serum Cu came from anyway.

Lack of zinc in our foods due to use of pesticides leads, in the long term, to low levels of apo-caeruloplasmin which in turn means lower caeruloplasmin bound copper and higher unbound (toxic) copper.

 

[NickC]

”When you take a high dose of zinc, it increases metallothionein in the intestines, and then the copper in your diet can get bound up by that metallothionein and just like the zinc, can stay in the intestinal cell until the cells slough off into the feces. That copper then gets bound up in your intestinal cell, never gets absorbed into your body in the true sense, and this winds up going out in the feces.”

This ignores the fact that zinc deficiency leads to low caeruloplasmin and therefore excess unbound copper.

 

[NickC]

WOuld blood donation help remove excess serum copper? I suppose the long term prospect would depend on where the excess serum Cu came from anyway.

Interesting suggestion blood donation, unfortunately here in the UK those over 66 are not allowed to donate blood. Are leeches available anywhere?

 

[ddjd]

Mitosynergy have this study on their Facebook page claiming it backs up why copper 2 from supplements is so toxic and can cause Alzheimer's etc

Copper-2 Ingestion, Plus Increased Meat Eating Leading to Increased Copper Absorption, Are Major Factors Behind the Current Epidemic of Alzheimer's... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Dave Clark]

According to Charles Barker from Mitosynergy, copper should be taken away from zinc, perhaps copper 1 in the AM, and zinc in the PM. Any copper not sourced from plants will build up as toxic copper, but copper (copper 1) that is plant sourced will be used inside the cell for the needed enzymes, etc. I think it is true for most minerals, plant sourced are better utilized. Check out Charles Barker's videos for better explanation of copper 1 and copper 2.

 

[NickC]

According to Charles Barker from Mitosynergy, copper should be taken away from zinc, perhaps copper 1 in the AM, and zinc in the PM. Any copper not sourced from plants will build up as toxic copper, but copper (copper 1) that is plant sourced will be used inside the cell for the needed enzymes, etc. I think it is true for most minerals, plant sourced are better utilized. Check out Charles Barker's videos for better explanation of copper 1 and copper 2.

Yes but apart from Charles Barker / Mitosynergy is there any other evidence to confirm his theory that the human body does not absorb Copper 2? Seems to me if enough Zinc to available then the human body will absorb copper 2 just fine, the problem comes about with zinc deficiency which then leads to the inability to absorb copper properly.

 

[Dave Clark]

Yes but apart from Charles Barker / Mitosynergy is there any other evidence to confirm his theory that the human body does not absorb Copper 2? Seems to me if enough Zinc to available then the human body will absorb copper 2 just fine, the problem comes about with zinc deficiency which then leads to the inability to absorb copper properly.

I could be wrong, but I think the issue isn't with 'absorption', but with 'utilization'. Copper 2 might be absorbed well, but it isn't utilized properly by the cells and tends to store/clog in the cell's membranes, hence becoming over-accumulating and toxic. Copper 1 being better bioavailable doesn't have that problem, so it can get used for production of superoxide dismutase, etc. Most of what I read, and what Charles said is that zinc will prevent the absorption of copper in any form, because it is an antagonist to copper. That is why he doesn't recommend high doses, or taking both at the same time. I still think plant based copper is the best and safest, less chance of toxicity.

 

[NickC]

In nature Copper is not consumed on it's own but is usually accompanied by Zinc, normally about four or five times as much. That gives us a bit of an anomally, what happens when we eat food which contain both, which do we actually absorb?

Just looked-up Almonds which are apparently quite high in copper, 100g contains: Cu: 0.96mg , Zn: 5.6mg. That is a Zn:Cu ratio of 5.8.

So if nature normally gives us copper and zinc combined why would we supplement seperately?