Copper deficiency edema

[Peatness]

Why did I not know this before? If anyone can elaborate on the study below please feel free. This is a rat study. I wonder if it translates to humans? Could salt sensitivity be caused by a copper deficiency?

Acute renal failure and fluid retention and kidney damage in copper-deficient rats fed a high-NaCl diet - PubMed

The effect of an interaction between Cu status and dietary NaCl level on kidney structure, water balance, and the plasma renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS) was examined in 64 male Sprague-Dawley rats (178 gm) fed a copper-supplemented diet (CuS) (10 micrograms Cu per gram) or a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I stumbled on this whilst researching my continuing poor muscular skeletal health. Weak muscles coupled with hypothyroid symptoms, a recent increase in edema upon supplementing thyroid got me wondering what else I could be missing. I'd never associated copper with edema. My face looks like those old photos of myxedema. I hope these symptoms are reversible. My spine is pretty damaged. I will start supplementing copper to see if things improve. Will also get kidney function test done as soon as possible, perhaps before supplementing. Its pointless demanding a thyroid test from my doctors, according to them my thyroid is fine based on tsh of 1.8, my hypo symptoms are disregarded. Dr peat has emphasised the loss of copper in hypothyroid persons but the connection to salt sensitivity is surprising, presuming this applies to humans and not just rats.

 

[Linnechka]

Why did I not know this before? If anyone can elaborate on the study below please feel free. This is a rat study. I wonder if it translates to humans? Could salt sensitivity be caused by a copper deficiency?

Acute renal failure and fluid retention and kidney damage in copper-deficient rats fed a high-NaCl diet - PubMed

The effect of an interaction between Cu status and dietary NaCl level on kidney structure, water balance, and the plasma renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS) was examined in 64 male Sprague-Dawley rats (178 gm) fed a copper-supplemented diet (CuS) (10 micrograms Cu per gram) or a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I stumbled on this whilst researching my continuing poor muscular skeletal health. Weak muscles coupled with hypothyroid symptoms, a recent increase in edema upon supplementing thyroid got me wondering what else I could be missing. I'd never associated copper with edema. My face looks like those old photos of myxedema. I hope these symptoms are reversible. My spine is pretty damaged. I will start supplementing copper to see if things improve. Will also get kidney function test done as soon as possible, perhaps before supplementing. Its pointless demanding a thyroid test from my doctors, according to them my thyroid is fine based on tsh of 1.8, my hypo symptoms are disregarded. Dr peat has emphasised the loss of copper in hypothyroid persons but the connection to salt sensitivity is surprising, presuming this applies to humans and not just rats.

Hey Pina, Are your muscles weak or do they fatigue almost instantly? I was struggling with really terrible muscle fatigue (basically an average set of stairs or 2 mins on a bike was enough to exhaust) especially in my lower legs. I've been hypo for a while and taking T3 to help with that. I was also getting leg edema bad enough that at times it felt like the skin was going to rip. I went to several doctors who couldn't find anything wrong with me. I do eat 1oz oysters daily, so I get my copper every day, but the thing that made the biggest difference for me was several months taking higher daily doses of B1 (thiamine). (I took about 300mg per day, though I know some people go higher to knock out deficiency symptoms). Maybe worth looking into the symptoms of beriberi to see if you have a thiamine deficiency?

 

[Peatness]

Hey Pina, Are your muscles weak or do they fatigue almost instantly? I was struggling with really terrible muscle fatigue (basically an average set of stairs or 2 mins on a bike was enough to exhaust) especially in my lower legs. I've been hypo for a while and taking T3 to help with that. I was also getting leg edema bad enough that at times it felt like the skin was going to rip. I went to several doctors who couldn't find anything wrong with me. I do eat 1oz oysters daily, so I get my copper every day, but the thing that made the biggest difference for me was several months taking higher daily doses of B1 (thiamine). (I took about 300mg per day, though I know some people go higher to knock out deficiency symptoms). Maybe worth looking into the symptoms of beriberi to see if you have a thiamine deficiency?

Yes, I am fatigued and my muscles are floppy. I have been supplementing thiamine, in fact, my thiamax order arrived today and I took one this morning. I am very hypo now. Freezing. Topical t3 does help but I seem to need a lot of it. Adrenalin is causing issues as a result. I have been using thiamine for a long time at high doses so it seems unlikely that this could be a thiamine issue. However, thanks for the suggestion and I will continue with thiamine and perhaps increase it. Copper deficiency is remarkably similar to thiamine deficiency in some ways

Neurologic and sensory-related symptoms​

Copper plays an important role in the production and maintenance of myelin, a substance that coats nerves and facilitates the communication of signals throughout the nervous system (neurotransmission). A copper-containing enzyme also converts the neurotransmitter dopamine to the neurotransmitter norepinephrine. Copper deficiency may result in:

• Peripheral neuropathy: Weakness, numbness and pain can be felt, usually in your hands and feet.
• Myelopathy: Spinal cord defects that can result in diminishing body function, pain, and weakness.
• Improper synthesis of neurotransmitters: For example, inadequate dopamine may inhibit feelings of pleasure or understanding rewards.
• Weak muscles (hypotonia): Low muscle tone can result in a "floppy" appearance.

 

[atlee7757]

Why did I not know this before? If anyone can elaborate on the study below please feel free. This is a rat study. I wonder if it translates to humans? Could salt sensitivity be caused by a copper deficiency?

Acute renal failure and fluid retention and kidney damage in copper-deficient rats fed a high-NaCl diet - PubMed

The effect of an interaction between Cu status and dietary NaCl level on kidney structure, water balance, and the plasma renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS) was examined in 64 male Sprague-Dawley rats (178 gm) fed a copper-supplemented diet (CuS) (10 micrograms Cu per gram) or a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I stumbled on this whilst researching my continuing poor muscular skeletal health. Weak muscles coupled with hypothyroid symptoms, a recent increase in edema upon supplementing thyroid got me wondering what else I could be missing. I'd never associated copper with edema. My face looks like those old photos of myxedema. I hope these symptoms are reversible. My spine is pretty damaged. I will start supplementing copper to see if things improve. Will also get kidney function test done as soon as possible, perhaps before supplementing. Its pointless demanding a thyroid test from my doctors, according to them my thyroid is fine based on tsh of 1.8, my hypo symptoms are disregarded. Dr peat has emphasised the loss of copper in hypothyroid persons but the connection to salt sensitivity is surprising, presuming this applies to humans and not just rats.

Interesting study on Copper effects on Salt intolerance and edema. Any updates on pursuing Copper supplementation for edema issues?

 

[Peatness]

Interesting study on Copper effects on Salt intolerance and edema. Any updates on pursuing Copper supplementation for edema issues?

I don't supplement copper but I eat foods with copper.

 

[Shontelle]

Hey Pina, Are your muscles weak or do they fatigue almost instantly? I was struggling with really terrible muscle fatigue (basically an average set of stairs or 2 mins on a bike was enough to exhaust) especially in my lower legs. I've been hypo for a while and taking T3 to help with that. I was also getting leg edema bad enough that at times it felt like the skin was going to rip. I went to several doctors who couldn't find anything wrong with me. I do eat 1oz oysters daily, so I get my copper every day, but the thing that made the biggest difference for me was several months taking higher daily doses of B1 (thiamine). (I took about 300mg per day, though I know some people go higher to knock out deficiency symptoms). Maybe worth looking into the symptoms of beriberi to see if you have a thiamine deficiency?

Thank thank thank you!!!!!
This is the exact feeling I have been battling for the last few years. A full feeling like my calves were going to rip open and even down to feet.
I didn’t matter what I ate, what I do; the feeling just continued.
I literally ordered B1 a day ago and just started yesterday!
I noticed a difference instantaneously :) I hope this was the missing piece.

 

[Peatness]

Thank thank thank you!!!!!
This is the exact feeling I have been battling for the last few years. A full feeling like my calves were going to rip open and even down to feet.
I didn’t matter what I ate, what I do; the feeling just continued.
I literally ordered B1 a day ago and just started yesterday!
I noticed a difference instantaneously :) I hope this was the missing piece.

See also posts by @mostlylurking on thiamine. They are very useful

 

[Shontelle]

See also posts by @mostlylurking on thiamine. They are very useful

Thank you. Will take a look now

 

[Peatness]

Pathogenesis of oedema in chronic severe anaemia: studies of body water and sodium, renal function, haemodynamic variables, and plasma hormones - PubMed

In patients with oedema caused by chronic severe anaemia there is retention of salt and water, reduction of renal blood flow and glomerular filtration rate, and neurohormonal activation similar to that seen in patients with oedema caused by myocardial disease. However, unlike patients with...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Background:
Patients with chronic severe anaemia often retain salt and water. Fluid retention in these patients is not caused by heart failure and the exact mechanisms remain unclear. This study was designed to examine some of the possible mechanisms.

Methods and results:
Haemodynamic variables, body fluid compartments, renal function, and plasma hormones were measured in four patients with oedema caused by chronic severe anaemia (mean (SE) haematocrit 13 (1.7)) who had never received any treatment. Cardiac output was increased (6.1 (0.6) l/min/m2) and right atrial (7.8 (1) mm Hg), mean pulmonary arterial (20.5 (2.0) mm Hg), and mean pulmonary arterial wedge (13 (2.7) mm Hg) pressures were slightly increased. The mean systemic arterial pressure (81 (1.3) mm Hg) and systemic vascular resistance (12.3 (1.1) mm Hg x min x m2/l were low. There were significant increases in total body water (+14%), extracellular volume (+32%), plasma volume (+70%), and total body exchangeable sodium (+30%). Renal blood flow was moderately decreased (-46%) and the glomerular filtration rate was slightly reduced (-24%). There were significant increases in plasma noradrenaline (2.1-fold), renin activity (15-fold), aldosterone (3.2-fold), growth hormone (6.3-fold), and atrial natriuretic peptide (12-fold).

Conclusion:
In patients with oedema caused by chronic severe anaemia there is retention of salt and water, reduction of renal blood flow and glomerular filtration rate, and neurohormonal activation similar to that seen in patients with oedema caused by myocardial disease. However, unlike patients with myocardial disease, patients with anaemia have a high cardiac output and a low systemic vascular resistance and blood pressure. It is suggested that the low concentration of haemoglobin in patients with anaemia causes a reduced inhibition of basal endothelium-derived relaxing factor activity and leads to generalised vasodilatation. The consequent low blood pressure may be the stimulus for neurohormonal activation and salt and water retention.

 

[Peatness]

00:22:35 - What about drinking water? Salt is important in keeping us hydrated. What retains the water in the bloodstream is largely the protein albumin, but albumin doesn't retain water without sodium. Lack of sodium makes albumin to go into the tissues, creating some sort of edema and swelling.

00:28:10 - So people with swollen ankles for example can just try more salt? Yes, but make sure to have adequate protein without eating too much phosphate. Phosphate is now considered a kidney toxin. Pure meat-eaters like Eskimos age pretty quickly.

00:37:25 - Any ideas on leg vascular insufficiency or lipedema? High fats in the blood increase the viscosity. High albumin (and salt) increases the fluidity of the blood. You can correct that by lowering stress (low phosphate, good thyroid function and Vitamin D levels).

00:45:50 - salt restriction in old people can often lead to insomnia

00:46:30 - Should we trust our (salt) cravings and when do we know how much is too much? When thyroid function is low you lose salt easily through urine. When you lose sodium, aldosterone increases (which causes increased blood pressure and fibrosis). With a lot of salt in the diet the body adapts by lowering aldosterone and you excrete of the salt. The adrenals adjust very quickly. If you correct thyroid function you don't need so much salt.

00:50:00 - What's the difference between salt and electrolytes? The main electrolyte in the blood is sodium, minor ones are potassium, magnesium, calcium. The body is efficient at balancing them out.

 

[Peatress]

Dr Peat discussing Copper deficiency in relation to tissue swelling.

In dogs and horses, many years ago they saw that dogs and horses both suffered spinal nerve compression. And paralysis of the rear legs was a common result from a compression of the spinal cord. And they found that a copper deficiency was responsible.

And keeping horses indoors eating dry hay was considered responsible for the copper deficiency; but the absence of light is one of the things that makes your respiratory enzymes lose its necessary copper. So the combination of darkness and possibly a copper deficiency in the diet will cause an energy failure, leading to a swelling of the connective tissues, leading to pinching of the nerves.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9hQByNO-Qg&t=2546s