Copper Deficiency Dilemma

Rich77

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Messages
17
Hi,

Can someone help with this problem. Thank you.

-Male, 38 yrs old. History of alcohol abuse. During 20 years of alcohol use, always took the proper supplements: B complex, C, E, Multi-minerals +Zn. Also herbs Milk Thistle, Dandelion Coffee, plus weekly intake of 400-500 gm fried liver, etc.

- Over the years, all my liver, lipid, CBC, and other blood profiles show normal ranges. Except for Total Bilirubin > always kind of High (above range).

Serum vitamin A (retinol) persistently on the upper side/80-90 mcg/dL. Other vitamins, mins, all within normal ranges.

Frequent examinations of liver condition (utlra-sound tests) show enlarged liver, possible fatty liver, but not a cause for concern (per physicians, technicians).

Around 4 years ago, and as I been working and living indoors for years (no sun exposure), done vitamin D test. Result: 10 ng (severe deficiency). Took D Drops, also D 300,000 IU injections. None would raise D into sufficient range.

Two years ago, started D 50,000 capsules/weekly. 10 weeks and D went up to 50 ng. Vitamin A (retinol) dropped, first time ever! below 70 mcg/dL. Since the D 50,000 capsules provided calm, better sleep, less long-bones pain. Continued to take but more frequently. From Nov. 15, 2017, to date, took a total of 1 Million IU of vitamin D.

From Jan 2018, totally abstained from alcohol. And here is where things started to go wrong! Lab tests were showing unprecedented abnormalities:
- Total Protein below range 58 g/L (range 61-79).
- ALP persistently below range 48 IU/L (56-119) !
- Trfn.Sat above range 46% (20-40).
- Ferritin persistently at the low end of range 50 ng/mL (24-337).
- Cu persistently at the low end of range 13 umol/L (12.4-31.7)
- Ceruloplasmin persistently at the low end of range 0.24 g/L (0.22-0.58).

Couldn't care less about what those low results meant. But started worrying about my state of health, when my friends and fellow workers at the office noticed abnormalities: pale face, slight yellowing whites of eyes, sudden outbursts over small mistakes, jittery, depressed mood, melancholic. Nothing would make me relax, or laugh. Yet the most visible sign was head hair. Always had healthy head of hair. Suddenly, since about 6 months, started thinning (thou less now, in last few weeks), then the complete change came about: VERY dry, brittle, straw like, kinky hair. Classic look of that kinky hair syndrome. Must be something internal, within the body, that went haywire! Couldn't tell what it was.

Doing extensive search on the web, early in the year. No answers. This is very obvious kinky hair condition. Kinky hair a syndrome of Menkes disease, but it is a genetic disease in new born, not in adults!

Then I saw one site healthsupplementsnutritionalguide mention Copper as a nutritional cause of dry brittle hair (though my hair condition is nothing as simple dry/brittle, but obvious look of some serious physiological disorder).

With low Cu blood test results in mind, started daily intake of all sorts of copper sources. Cu 2 to 4 mg caps/day. Half cup of Sesame seeds. Half cup Almonds. 50-100 gm of 80% dark chocolate bar. Yet after many months on high Cu intake, and stopping Zn (not needed after abstaining from alcohol), and vitamin C. Both of those are Cu antagonists, the Cu/Cp/Ferritin all remain low!

What is going on? How to explain this.

I've read somewhere, low ALP is possible indicator of excess vit D in the body. May be.

That low Ferritin may relate to low Retinol levels. But A is well within normal range, if not in the upper range.

Had a chat over the weekend with one doctor, sent him my lab results. Amazed. Says, these are signs of malnutrition! "You can't be malnourished! In underdeveloped, poor nations, yes, but not here"!

Where does all the copper in copper-rich foods go? Low Cp and Cu, are definite indicator of Cu deficiency. Stopping Zn, and C supplements (except for 4 oranges+ 2 limes per day to compensate for vit C). Why the body can't absorb copper?

Does too much copper intake, causes reduction in Cp?
Does copper toxicity, shows up in tests as deficiency? As a page in MayoClinic lab suggest.
How can Ferritin be low range when serum Fe is high?

*Latest CBC panel - nothing abnormal (like leukopenia/low WBC - indicator of low Cu) detected.
 

Motif

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Nov 24, 2017
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Anything unusual with your digestion?
Daily bowels? Everything looks like it should?
 

InChristAlone

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Stop all vitamin A intake even from dairy. Sounds to me like you have hypervitaminosis A. And vitamin D is not the cure.
 

sunraiser

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Feb 21, 2017
Messages
549
I also got low alkaline phosphatase from vit D supplements in the absence of k2.

It warps your mineral metabolism so the body holds off on uptake, I think.

My vit D levels looked normal but I still wasn't properly metabolising calcium. I'm currently taking D with life extension k and magnesium. Having to play with the dosage and getting it wrong causes mega insulin resistance and worse sleep.

We probably have different situations but vit D or A without k2 seem to actually cause mineral deficiency in my experience (maybe just via inflammation from poor mineral balance and the subsequent stressors) , hence the state of malnutrition. Restoring calcium and magnesium metabolism should hopefully bring zinc and copper into place.

I'm just sharing this as an avenue to investigate as opposed to an instruction to try. Fat solubles should not be played with!
 
Last edited:

sunraiser

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Also, looking at your past diet then if you have a copper deficiency then it's very likely to be paradoxical - increasing copper intake at current likely won't be sensible.
 

InChristAlone

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OP
Rich77

Rich77

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Nov 17, 2018
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Anything unusual with your digestion?
Daily bowels? Everything looks like it should?

Good question Motif! Do have chronic constipation since started alcohol around age 18. Treated, till now, with daily use of All Bran, Metamucil (occasional charcoal, enemas). Cannot stop taking the daily dose of 2 Tbs Metamucil, eat fruits like oranges, etc. else bowels won't move for days on.

Interestingly, those same measures to treat constipation, that have worked so well for long time (20 yrs), stopped working early this year. After I refrained from alcohol, and upped the D dose.

Seen GP, then GI surgeon. Did colonoscopy. Found few benign polyps. Removed. Next visit, surgeon exam detected more bloated belly, think fecal impaction! Asked for help, since nothing more seem to work. Even castor oil, barely moved bowels! Beside bloated tummy, acne filled face. Gave me salt solution, Movicol, plus Normacol Plus. Take high dose for few days. Then normal dose. Worked but not much. Was indeed an unpleasant experience overall.

I believe there's a connection between high dose D and constipation. Contrary to published medical reports, your blood profile "doesn't have to" show hi Ca levels to confirm that. Even if your Ca levels are "normal or low"! Vitamin D, in high enough dosage will, somehow, bestow obstinate constipation on you. In retrospect, looking back at my GP and surgeon visits, I can't comprehend, how physicians, when patients presented with such unexplainable colon condition, not prompted to ask about vitamin D intake!
 
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Rich77

Rich77

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Nov 17, 2018
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Also, looking at your past diet then if you have a copper deficiency then it's very likely to be paradoxical - increasing copper intake at current likely won't be sensible.

Thanks Sunraiser. The paradox is def there, as the more Cu I consume, the worse the symptoms. Also, not getting the Cu or Cp levels higher.
 
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Rich77

Rich77

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Were you having symptoms before stopping alcohol?

No. Was in good overall health. Blood tests, including vits, mins, etc, were all good. Nothing out of range, except the usual high Tbil.
 
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I would guess you have vitamin C deficiency, chiefly due to kinky hair. Oh yeah, and vitamin C is intimately involved with copper metabolism, as I wrote about here: Ascorbate And The Copper Hand-Off

The vitamin A demonizers see your enlarged liver, high serum retinol, high liver intake. But everything is vitamin A toxicity to them, even though there is no weight gain or auto-immune condition here. Also, according to one of the studies they use, elevated ALP can be considered a marker for vitamin A toxicity, but you have low ALP.

The good news is you can do both. Create vitamin A deficiency and supplement Ascorbic Acid. Taurine is supposed to help fatty liver and detox vitamin A.
 
OP
Rich77

Rich77

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Joined
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Messages
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I would guess you have vitamin C deficiency, chiefly due to kinky hair. Oh yeah, and vitamin C is intimately involved with copper metabolism, as I wrote about here: Ascorbate And The Copper Hand-Off

The vitamin A demonizers see your enlarged liver, high serum retinol, high liver intake. But everything is vitamin A toxicity to them, even though there is no weight gain or auto-immune condition here. Also, according to one of the studies they use, elevated ALP can be considered a marker for vitamin A toxicity, but you have low ALP.

The good news is you can do both. Create vitamin A deficiency and supplement Ascorbic Acid. Taurine is supposed to help fatty liver and detox vitamin A.

Thanks Zmkd. The C deficiency > reduced collagen production, factor in hair condition. Actually few months ago tried 2 x 500 mg Ester-C /day, for 3 days. Result was surprising! Hair transformed overnight, into normal healthy hair. Yet from 4th day on, woke up to same kinky hair syndrome. Unfortunately, my condition more complex than a C supplement.

I drink 330 ml fresh OJ, each morning. Don't eat breakfast that often. Also eat 4 oranges, in afternoon. In between morning and evening, add 2 limes squeezed into water, coke, or other light beverage. So, I am taking enough natural C, I think (which what some sources recomm "use natural source C to increase ceruloplasmin).

While on heavy alcohol, used 500 mg x 2 daily. Health was fine, because my liver and body tissues needed the extra C. Without alcohol, I'd be only depleting more Cu stores!

I estimate my C intake from natural sources to be around 500+ mg per day, nowadays . While NIH website recommends 100mg or less per day. Think I'm C sufficient.

By the way, yesterday while searching for ways to increase Ceruloplasmin (Cp). Found, Google Scholar, research paper mention Cp being crucial to maintaining not just Cu but Fe levels, i.e. Ferritin stores! This is news to me. Didn't know Cp regulates or enhances Fe, beside Cu, stores. As I mentioned my Cp, Cu, Ferritin levels are at very low end of normal range (though serum Fe, well within range).

Seems like first task to recovery, is increasing Cp, that in itself will correct (other factors considered) the low Cu and Ferritin.

These days, have sort of brain fog, short attention span, racing thoughts. So if something sound incoherent, you know.

In another thread, here, about Cu deficiency. Someone mention garlic antagonizing Cu. I know about the powerful herb garlic, in fact my cook adds full head of garlic (fresh crushed, or boiled) on dinner table each evening. I eat about 3 crushed cloves (mixed with vegetable soup, or other liquid). Never understood how garlic which some say good source of copper, can antagonize copper! Yet I always take Cu supp separate from meal time (usually with cup of milk, or piece of cake). Anyway, I've stopped the garlic plate thing last week.

Haven't read the entire Ascorbate thread you provided. Interesting. Noticed yr mention taking C at night before retiring. Isn't this contrary to what we've been told ages ago, "take yr C early in the day, before evening, and certainly not at bed time, to avoid frequent wake ups (bathroom visits) > insomnia.
 
Last edited:

InChristAlone

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It wont hurt you to try a vitamin C supplement. Animals that produce it, produce way more than we get from diet. I mean unless you eat ripe tropical fruit all day long..
 

Glassy

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Dec 17, 2017
Messages
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Are you still eating refined fibre for bowel motility? It’s definitely not something I’d be doing any more. Order some aged cascara and while you wait eat 1-2 grated carrots a day. Don’t underestimate the impact that your gut health has on the rest of your body (endotoxins are nasty AF).

You’ve got so many things going on but what do you eat typically?
 

fradon

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Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
605
Hi,

Can someone help with this problem. Thank you.

-Male, 38 yrs old. History of alcohol abuse. During 20 years of alcohol use, always took the proper supplements: B complex, C, E, Multi-minerals +Zn. Also herbs Milk Thistle, Dandelion Coffee, plus weekly intake of 400-500 gm fried liver, etc.

- Over the years, all my liver, lipid, CBC, and other blood profiles show normal ranges. Except for Total Bilirubin > always kind of High (above range).

Serum vitamin A (retinol) persistently on the upper side/80-90 mcg/dL. Other vitamins, mins, all within normal ranges.

Frequent examinations of liver condition (utlra-sound tests) show enlarged liver, possible fatty liver, but not a cause for concern (per physicians, technicians).

Around 4 years ago, and as I been working and living indoors for years (no sun exposure), done vitamin D test. Result: 10 ng (severe deficiency). Took D Drops, also D 300,000 IU injections. None would raise D into sufficient range.

Two years ago, started D 50,000 capsules/weekly. 10 weeks and D went up to 50 ng. Vitamin A (retinol) dropped, first time ever! below 70 mcg/dL. Since the D 50,000 capsules provided calm, better sleep, less long-bones pain. Continued to take but more frequently. From Nov. 15, 2017, to date, took a total of 1 Million IU of vitamin D.

From Jan 2018, totally abstained from alcohol. And here is where things started to go wrong! Lab tests were showing unprecedented abnormalities:
- Total Protein below range 58 g/L (range 61-79).
- ALP persistently below range 48 IU/L (56-119) !
- Trfn.Sat above range 46% (20-40).
- Ferritin persistently at the low end of range 50 ng/mL (24-337).
- Cu persistently at the low end of range 13 umol/L (12.4-31.7)
- Ceruloplasmin persistently at the low end of range 0.24 g/L (0.22-0.58).

Couldn't care less about what those low results meant. But started worrying about my state of health, when my friends and fellow workers at the office noticed abnormalities: pale face, slight yellowing whites of eyes, sudden outbursts over small mistakes, jittery, depressed mood, melancholic. Nothing would make me relax, or laugh. Yet the most visible sign was head hair. Always had healthy head of hair. Suddenly, since about 6 months, started thinning (thou less now, in last few weeks), then the complete change came about: VERY dry, brittle, straw like, kinky hair. Classic look of that kinky hair syndrome. Must be something internal, within the body, that went haywire! Couldn't tell what it was.

Doing extensive search on the web, early in the year. No answers. This is very obvious kinky hair condition. Kinky hair a syndrome of Menkes disease, but it is a genetic disease in new born, not in adults!

Then I saw one site healthsupplementsnutritionalguide mention Copper as a nutritional cause of dry brittle hair (though my hair condition is nothing as simple dry/brittle, but obvious look of some serious physiological disorder).

With low Cu blood test results in mind, started daily intake of all sorts of copper sources. Cu 2 to 4 mg caps/day. Half cup of Sesame seeds. Half cup Almonds. 50-100 gm of 80% dark chocolate bar. Yet after many months on high Cu intake, and stopping Zn (not needed after abstaining from alcohol), and vitamin C. Both of those are Cu antagonists, the Cu/Cp/Ferritin all remain low!

What is going on? How to explain this.

I've read somewhere, low ALP is possible indicator of excess vit D in the body. May be.

That low Ferritin may relate to low Retinol levels. But A is well within normal range, if not in the upper range.

Had a chat over the weekend with one doctor, sent him my lab results. Amazed. Says, these are signs of malnutrition! "You can't be malnourished! In underdeveloped, poor nations, yes, but not here"!

Where does all the copper in copper-rich foods go? Low Cp and Cu, are definite indicator of Cu deficiency. Stopping Zn, and C supplements (except for 4 oranges+ 2 limes per day to compensate for vit C). Why the body can't absorb copper?

Does too much copper intake, causes reduction in Cp?
Does copper toxicity, shows up in tests as deficiency? As a page in MayoClinic lab suggest.
How can Ferritin be low range when serum Fe is high?

*Latest CBC panel - nothing abnormal (like leukopenia/low WBC - indicator of low Cu) detected.

you need vitmain A to make ceruloplasm in order to bind copper. it will show a low copper level because of low vitamin A. low iron and low copper go hand in hand. it does nto mean you don't have the minerals in you its just copper needs to bind to ceruoloplams and then actiavte iron. without copper then iron is useless.

cashews are super high in copper as it dark chocolate.

so all the D lowered your A and now you have low Cp bound CU and low Fe because of low Cu

you also need some excercise as the adrenals need to activate copper binding in the liver but if you are feeling anemic then you may not feel like walking.
 
Joined
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Messages
988
I would consider taking the copper hours away from vitamin C. There is some evidence that C may interfere with copper bioavailability. If you are getting a lot of Iron e.g. through liver that will also compete with copper absorption.
 

Cirion

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Sep 1, 2017
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Also, 500-1000 mg of vitamin C is not that much actually, especially if you suspect a deficiency.

There are those that believe even people in good health should take around 10,000 mg a day, far more if you have health issues and suspected deficiencies.

I myself take at least 4-6,000 mg of C a day often 10,000.

Not saying that's your issue or that increasing C intake will miraculously cure you or anything, just putting that out there.
 

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