Copper And My Experience! Bloodworks And Training Method Explained!

Insomnia

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Hi,

First of all, excuse me for any weird sentences. My English isn't superb but I'll do my best explaining the story. I wanted to share my experience (long boring story) regarding supplementation and what it has done for me in the past 2 years. Before I start off, I'll pull up some old lab/bloodwork results from earlier (and other threads):

Thread: Testosterone Levels, Dhea, Pregnenolone, Thyroid And Bloodworks (right Subforum)!

September 2016
TSH 7.5 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
FT4 16 pmol/L (12-22)

December 2016
TSH 6.3 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
FT4 15 pmol/L (12-22)
Anti-TPO test to rule out Hashimoto's <28 kU/L (<= 60)
Testosteron 34 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]

February 2017
TSH 8.5 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
FT4 14 pmol/L (12-22)
Anti-TPO <28 kU/L (<=60)
Testosteron 34 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
25-OH Vitamin D3 130 nmol/L (50-150) [optimal 150-200]


After having alot of fatigue, brainfog, not being able to focus, I was actually stuck in what I was doing. I didn't know what the culprit was so I had to reverse engineer everything I did and possible start all over again just to know what was going on. So I decided, after googling alot of articles/stories about the possibilities of having a copper deficiency, since that was something I didn't get through my diet. I was so scared of being copper overloaded already (don't ask me why) and the stories I heard about copper overload weren't funny either. Anyhow, since I took MSM daily (first period at 2grams a day) at 1 gram a day, I decided to cycle it at 5 days, which means 2 days off. Same goes for taurine, I decided to cycle it at 5 days a week at 1g. Prior I would do 2g daily, 7 days a week. Same goes for vitamin C (liposomal sodium ascorbate), dosed at 2g a week back then, now I'm at 1g max daily. Sometimes I just take usp grade ascorbic acid, sometimes I just do the sodium ascorbate.

I thought that copper had to play a role in my problems and why my TSH was so high all the time (EVEN AFTER CUTTING ON THE IODINE-DOSAGE).. TSH was fluctuating around 8-12 and it did spike up after introducing iodine, but I read that iodine would temporarily spike and then go back to normal/lower levels because of the initial start-up. It was described as a transient phase. So the first time I had these high TSH results, I was like "okay, the iodine is in my system and it's definitely doing something", so months passed by and result after results showed high TSH. I thought the iodine-dosage was wayyyy to high and I got discouraged so I upped the dose in order to make sure that it was the iodine that was the culprit, what happened was that the test (after upping the dose) showed LOWER TSH results, I believe from 12 to somewhere around 8.5. I didn't change anything regarding the protocol I was following at that time. So what the heck was going on right now, I was actually getting stuck.



Here are some extra bloodwork results during 2017;

September/Oktober 2017
TSH 7.8 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
Testosteron 14 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
25-OH Vitamin D3 250> nmol/L (50-150) [optimal 150-200]


I got scared because of the low test results, but since I took the bloodtest during midday (while all the other tests were taken in the morning) I read that during midday testosterone can be substantially lower, yes even that much lower. To make sure nothing was wrong I did another bloodtest 1 month later (in the morning) and the testosterone was good;

November 2017
TSH 12 mU/L (normal range is 0.3-4.2)
FT4 13 pmol/L (normal range is 12-22)
Ferrithine 90 ug/l (normal range is 30-350)
Anti-TPO <28 kU/L (<=60)
Testosteron 30 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
25-OH Vitamin D3 95 nmol/L (50-150) [optimal 150-200]


I haven't used any vitamin D supplements because my D was so high, I just cut back on it.

Anyhow, back to my copper-story; since I was taking iodine, I read somewhere that copper was needed in converting TSH to the proper hormones. Same goes for the other supplements, but since I was already supplementing them, there was no real "bad guy" to point my finger to. Copper was the only thing at the time I didn't really supplement. I avoided and even took molybdenum from time to time (which is also an copper antagonist), so I was like; before I throw everything out of the window, I decide to give it another shot. So I decided to (since Ramadan was starting), to not use iodine during that period and when I would start, I would cut the dosage back to 1 drop of lugol's (5% solution) instead of 25mg of SSKI and 1800mcg nascent iodine. I even did 100mg on thursdays and fridays at the time. I would start using copper at 4-5.5 mg on mondays, wednesdays, fridays and 2 - 3.5mg on other days (I would try to get around 26-30mg of copper weekly), prior to this I wasn't even netting 10mg of copper I think (weekly).

Because I had these brainfog-like issues, I took some copper pills and somehow responded very good to them in a very short time. To rule out stuff, I quickly took a bloodtest a couple of days after supplementing coppper to make sure I didn't hit the copper too much in such way that it would interfere with the results (it was the first time I religiously took copper on a daily basis). I planned on continuing copper after having the results, which said:

March 2018
TSH 8.5 mU/L (normal range is 0.3-4.2)
FT4 13.5 pmol/L (normal range is 12-22)
Ferrithine 38.7 ug/l (normal range is 30-350)
Testosteron 30 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
Copper: 11.70 umol/l (normal range is 10.99 - 26.99)


There it was, it showed borderline sufficient. So I was like, well the heck with it, and I continued copper supplementation until this day at the dosage given above (26-30mg weekly). When Ramadan was coming (16th of may till 14th of june), I decided to lay off the iodine but continued dosing the other supplements. 1 week after the ramadan passed I had another bloodtest because I was planning on introducing iodine again but I wanted to know my results after not touching it for a month:


June 2018 (took bloodtest @8:30 in the morning)
Kreatinine 85 umol/l (normal range is 64 - 104)
TSH 3.7 mU/L (normal range is 0.3-4.2)
FT4 16.7 pmol/L (normal range is 12-22)
Iron: 18 umol/l (normal range is 14-35)
transferrine: 2/4 g/l (normal range is 2.0 - 4.1)
Ferrithine 53.5 ug/l (normal range is 30-350)
Testosteron 29 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
Copper: I requested the copper but somehow they messed up and they didn't check for it :/
CRP: <4 mg/l (max range is 5)
25-OH Vitamin D3 160 nmol/L (50-150) [optimal 150-200]



There it was, for the first time after such a long long long time, TSH dropped to 3.7
However my mind was still not peaceful with the fact that I don't know who to point my finger to,
So after the bloodtest (1 week after ramadan), I started supplementing iodine again and still kept dosing the copper as before. I took 1 drop of lugols (5% solution) daily and I wanted to know whether my TSH would rise again, as that surely would point out that it was the culprit. If it stayed the same then the iodine perhaps wasn't the bad guy after all and it would mean that the copper was doing it's job, so (latest results):

August 2018 (took this bloodtest during midday around @15:30)
TSH 2.8 mU/L (normal range is 0.3-4.2)
trijodothyronine (T3) 1.2 nmol/l (normal range is 1.0 - 2.8)
FT4 14.6 pmol/L (normal range is 12-22)
Testosteron 28 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
Zinc: 11 umol/l (normal range is 10-18)
Copper: 11.50 umol/l (10-24)


So basically, this last bloodtest says so much but also so little. Are these results the consequence of the bloodtest being taken during midday? I mean the TSH is great compared to the results before and the testosteron is also way higher compared to the one that was taken during midday also. Perhaps it's good I had some tests during midday and some in the morning. Perhaps the lower dose of iodine was better managed by my body. I do notice less/none of a stinky smell in my sweat on this lower dose of iodine, whereas it was a bit strange on higher dosage (can't say for 100% that iodine was causing this). I also notice way less fatigue on this dosage and last week I tried 25mg of SSKI (iodine as in potassium iodide) with 1800mcg of nascent iodine and I was quite tired/fatigued during that day and the day after.

I don't know why the testosterone is so high, but I did rub Kuinone on my scrotum for the past 2-3 months, 3 days a week, 2-3 drops in total.

I will wrap this up and post some of my questions/concerns and hopefully someone will be able to chime in and help me out because I genuinely don't know what's going on right now.

Changes I made lately:

First of all, I followed Leeroy Colberts training method in november 2017, which consists of doing full body workouts 3 times a week at a maximum of 1 hour and 10 minutes. Sometimes I hit the 1 hour and 30 minute mark. I can't say how much I like this method of training, I completely skip the intense cardio but I do some form of powerwalking (once or twice a week, for 30 minutes, not on training days), which is plenty enough. I was able to put on some weight and got in at 68.5kg (I'm not a massive guy), 8.8-9% of bodyfat. I was at 4% 2 years ago and felt miserable and wasn't even that muscular to begin with. Now my body is more
defined and I feel way greater. I did more cardio back then but it was even worse when I was younger, I would almost always do cardio and I feel it burned me out.

After some time, I just felt I was eating too much and it didn't go well with how my body felt. Even though I responded good to Leeroy Colberts training, the eating part (which was told by someone from my gym) was not suitable for me. I had to eat I don't know how many times a day, while Leeroy advocates 3 big meals a day. I think I can even do 2, I only eat one extra meal when my body tells me to.

Before the ramadan I was coming in at around 8.6% of bodyfat. After the ramadan I dropped to 7.7% and gained 0.1kg of muscle mass (65kg of bodyweight). It left the woman who was helping me flabbergasted because she thought I lost alot of muscle mass prior to the measurement.

After the ramadan, I had initial trouble in finding my ways to eat like I used to do. So I had another measurement and came in at 5.8% of bodyfat at 63.2kg. My muscle mass dropped by 0.2kg and I felt like I was going downwards again because I didn't really want to loose anymore weight, however I did discover something exceptional. When I look at my eating habits, I find myself often not eating for approx 13 hours or even more, this is not to torture myself but I wasn't very hungry in a way that I just needed to eat. I have had days where I craved food/drinks and I never ignore that, I just eat whenever I feel like.

On a sidenote, I am still thinking about joining a bodybuilding contest in the 65kg competition but still haven't made up my mind yet.

Perhaps this 13 hours of not eating mimics intermittent fasting and that's why I try to do it only 2 times a week. On other days I'm more flexible when it comes to eating and push my body a bit more in hitting those calories. I will post a pic soon, so that people can see my end-results. I don't know for how long I'll keep these pics up, it's more to show the changes I've been through.

From left to right, starting at 11th of April, 14th of May, 28th of May, 8th of June, 3rd of August
View attachment 10310 View attachment 10311 View attachment 10312 View attachment 10313
View attachment 10314

My concern/question:

Why is my copper still showing low results after upping the copper substantially and feeling so much better. The zinc still comes in at 30-40mg max daily but also shows similar results (or am I wrong regarding the zinc because I actually don't know whether it's borderline sufficient).

2) I am trying to add in cream of tartar, but I don't know whether it's good to take or not. According to this site, it's a toxic form of potassium: http://drlwilson.com/articles/POTASSIUM-TOXIC.htm

The problem is, I don't know for sure whether I am hitting my potassium needs and I am only thinking of taking this potassium supplement in order to get like 10-20% of my needs. That way, it's way easier for me to hit the potassium needs, because I feel like I am missing around 750-1500mg of potassium daily. It's really hard for me to squeeze it in, and it would be a bit more convenient to supplement it. Does anyone know of a good/non-toxic form to take?

In my 2nd post (see down below), I will write down my protocol and diet/changes as of lately so that people can see what I've been doing. Thanks for reading!
 
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Fexxx

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Hi Insomnia, great Post with a lot of Lab based insights. Copper seems become the next Mineral Top Topic in Health Forums!
So far I understand free Copper (like your Labs) should always be better on the low side BUT Ceruloplasmin Must be in a good „higher“ range to make the Mineral useful for the Body. So it would be very interesting how is yours at the Moment with the ~30mg Copper per Week.
Also Copper is helping a lot with Bacteria and Fungus which could contribute to your positive experiences.
 
D

danishispsychic

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The power of fasting !!! loved your post and yes on taking too much iodine- it can be a slippery slope.
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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Hi Insomnia, great Post with a lot of Lab based insights. Copper seems become the next Mineral Top Topic in Health Forums!
So far I understand free Copper (like your Labs) should always be better on the low side BUT Ceruloplasmin Must be in a good „higher“ range to make the Mineral useful for the Body. So it would be very interesting how is yours at the Moment with the ~30mg Copper per Week.
Also Copper is helping a lot with Bacteria and Fungus which could contribute to your positive experiences.

Thanks Fexxx, makes sense. I didn't even think of it. Maybe I should get my Ceruloplasmin checked. Does that mean I can conclude I am not overdoing the copper (as of the results of now?). I mean, my nails are much stronger. I don't have these weird white looking hairs anymore, which I had after starting the protocol. At a certain moment my hair looked a bit white/grayish, but then I introduced copper a while ago and now it's a dark black again.

One more thing is that before taking copper, I was sick some time ago and it lasted quite a while. There was this time (after introducing copper) I had these same symptoms (the ones you get before becoming sick), and I didn't become as sick as I did before and I recovered so much faster.

I don't have these yellow big toenails anymore, the color came back, all after introducing copper into the protocol (and keep in mind, I was following the protocol for like 1.5 years already without the coppper, and the only thing I changed was introducing copper and changing dosages regarding iodine etc.)

Hey @Insomnia. What does your diet look like? Have you tested cortisol?

I think I have a cortisol test somewhere, but maybe I'll get this done on my next bloodwork. I will post a small guide on what I take, do, eat on a daily basis and what I try to avoid so people can see what I am doing when it comes to actual food/lifestyle.


The power of fasting !!! loved your post and yes on taking too much iodine- it can be a slippery slope.

Thanks for the nice comment, glad u enjoyed it. I would go slow on the iodine (if u decide to dose higher) and see what suits u best. I did get benefits by taking it, but I guess we need dosages that suits us and perhaps it's lower then what's advertised by people. It's still a bit of a grey area for me.
 

mrsuomi

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It sure sounds like you where copper deficient. I also believe that I'm highly copper deficient, and it has even gon so far that i developed intense nerve problems, nerve pain , trouble walking and a lot of mental problems as well. But after adding copper in 2mg daily my symptom almost went a away.

I still experience nerve pain and a lot of problems but from my understanding it can take up to 12 weeks to get the copper levels back to normal.

The only thing is that I'm afraid that i take too much copper, how much copper can one take daily without it being dangerous?
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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It sure sounds like you where copper deficient. I also believe that I'm highly copper deficient, and it has even gon so far that i developed intense nerve problems, nerve pain , trouble walking and a lot of mental problems as well. But after adding copper in 2mg daily my symptom almost went a away.

I still experience nerve pain and a lot of problems but from my understanding it can take up to 12 weeks to get the copper levels back to normal.

The only thing is that I'm afraid that i take too much copper, how much copper can one take daily without it being dangerous?

Hi mrsuomi, glad to have you tuned in. People who eat liver regularly (i.e. once a week) get like anywhere between 26-30mg of copper if I recall. It was mentioned in a thread somewhere on the forums. I'd take that as a guideline. I myself use copper supplements at different dosages at certain days (and I also take zinc, to balance it out); 3x a week between 4 - 5.5mg of copper (with 40mg zinc on that day), and 4x a week of 2 - 3.5mg of copper (with 30mg of zinc on that day). That would make it a total of 20 - 30.5mg of copper weekly. Assuming you get some copper out of ur diet, that means I'd preferably would sit at 24-26mg of copper weekly. I'd use a maximum of 30mg zinc daily to balance things out. This is just what worked for me but I am still tweaking it. In the perfect world it would be the best to get things out of ur diet but to be honest, it's sseems impossible nowadays. Who knows, maybe in a 100 years agriculture might be totally different then what we know today and foods you take on a daily basis, has everything you need in it.
 

mrsuomi

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Hi mrsuomi, glad to have you tuned in. People who eat liver regularly (i.e. once a week) get like anywhere between 26-30mg of copper if I recall. It was mentioned in a thread somewhere on the forums. I'd take that as a guideline. I myself use copper supplements at different dosages at certain days (and I also take zinc, to balance it out); 3x a week between 4 - 5.5mg of copper (with 40mg zinc on that day), and 4x a week of 2 - 3.5mg of copper (with 30mg of zinc on that day). That would make it a total of 20 - 30.5mg of copper weekly. Assuming you get some copper out of ur diet, that means I'd preferably would sit at 24-26mg of copper weekly. I'd use a maximum of 30mg zinc daily to balance things out. This is just what worked for me but I am still tweaking it. In the perfect world it would be the best to get things out of ur diet but to be honest, it's sseems impossible nowadays. Who knows, maybe in a 100 years agriculture might be totally different then what we know today and foods you take on a daily basis, has everything you need in it.


Thanks for the reply! excuse my english I live in sweden and was to de doctor today. I explained that I'm 99 % sure that i have severe copper deficiency/zinc poisoning because I have supplemented with zinc for 4 years and high doses of vitamin C. He told there was no test they can do here in the city where i live.
So he only suggested that i supplement 2 mg a day and see what happens.

I mean my symptons could still come from else where since there are 80 diffrent causes for nerve pain (neuropathy) but I strongly believe that its the copper because all the symptoms match.

So I believe i have zinc poisoning thats why i'm afraid of eating too high amount of copper because of the negative effects of elevated copper in blood like
anxiety parranoia psychos, and all the emotions that come up when copper is too high. The fact that i some weed maybe dont make these things better so might have to lay off that for a bit.
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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Thanks for the reply! excuse my english I live in sweden and was to de doctor today. I explained that I'm 99 % sure that i have severe copper deficiency/zinc poisoning because I have supplemented with zinc for 4 years and high doses of vitamin C. He told there was no test they can do here in the city where i live.
So he only suggested that i supplement 2 mg a day and see what happens.

I mean my symptons could still come from else where since there are 80 diffrent causes for nerve pain (neuropathy) but I strongly believe that its the copper because all the symptoms match.

So I believe i have zinc poisoning thats why i'm afraid of eating too high amount of copper because of the negative effects of elevated copper in blood like
anxiety parranoia psychos, and all the emotions that come up when copper is too high. The fact that i some weed maybe dont make these things better so might have to lay off that for a bit.


I see where you are coming from, I avoided copper for such a long time because I was scared of having negative side-effects too. I didn't realize that I was actually depleting my copper by taking things such as zinc, vitamin C, MSM and molybdenum (which all antagonize copper). After starting just 2mg of copper, my symptoms got way better, I guess that convinced me of taking it. I'd try 2mg at first and work it up to maybe 3mg daily and see what it does for you in a period of a month (or three). When you get adverse effects, then try to "reverse engineer the situation" by taking notes of what u changed in the diet or supplement wise.

Are there any other supplements that u take on a regurlarly basis? How does ur diet look like?
 

mrsuomi

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Thank you very much for the advice . As a dietary supplement, I eat: Copper2mg Electrolytes, Vitamin A and K2, Activted B vitamins ( in the same form as in our bodies), Cbd Oil, curcumin thyme clove cinnamon garlic ginger(antibactieral,anti fungal), Forskolin Sometimes for nerve regenration, some algaes, reishi mushrooms (to build on the immune system). And vitamin c once a week because I eat so much copper that probably uses the vitamins c I have in my body.

I'm actually on a carnivore / ketogenic diet where I allow fats like ghee olive oil and avocado oil just to end up in ketosis (to balance gaba / glutamate in the brain) I have waaaay too much glutamate. keto diet has helped nerve pains roughly at least and 2 mg of copper a day as well.


how does your diet and supplements look? And what supplements did you use to get your copper levels up?
 

mrsuomi

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Note that turmeric and curcumin protects the organs in the body from heavy metal poisoning and that means it protects the body from copper overload too!
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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Thank you very much for the advice . As a dietary supplement, I eat: Copper2mg Electrolytes, Vitamin A and K2, Activted B vitamins ( in the same form as in our bodies), Cbd Oil, curcumin thyme clove cinnamon garlic ginger(antibactieral,anti fungal), Forskolin Sometimes for nerve regenration, some algaes, reishi mushrooms (to build on the immune system). And vitamin c once a week because I eat so much copper that probably uses the vitamins c I have in my body.

I'm actually on a carnivore / ketogenic diet where I allow fats like ghee olive oil and avocado oil just to end up in ketosis (to balance gaba / glutamate in the brain) I have waaaay too much glutamate. keto diet has helped nerve pains roughly at least and 2 mg of copper a day as well.


how does your diet and supplements look? And what supplements did you use to get your copper levels up?

I've read different things about turmeric/curcumin on the forums a long time ago. Here is a thread about curcumin: Curcumin (curry) Is Serotonergic

I actually don't know much about them, I just felt like pointing it out. I think you should give it a read.

At what dose do you use the Vitamin C? As for glumate, here is another thread: High Levels Of Glutamate Implicated In Depression / Suicide

I think people mention taurine as protection from glutamate, here is a quite from Haidut:
In general, anything that raises GABA will oppose/lower glutamate. This explains why taurine and theanine both lower it since they both stimulate GABA release. Theanine is also a structural analog of glutamate, almost like an anti-metabolite so that's probably another reason it opposes glutamate. Other GABA agents that should lower glutamate are niacinamide, progesterone, pregnenolone, saturated fat, tryptophan-deficient protein, glycine, proline, alanine, etc. As you all know, these substances are all known to be sedative in high doses, which suggests GABA release.

I take taurine myself too at 1g daily, 5 days a week. 2 days off in the weekend.
 

Douglas Ek

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I've read different things about turmeric/curcumin on the forums a long time ago. Here is a thread about curcumin: Curcumin (curry) Is Serotonergic

I actually don't know much about them, I just felt like pointing it out. I think you should give it a read.

At what dose do you use the Vitamin C? As for glumate, here is another thread: High Levels Of Glutamate Implicated In Depression / Suicide

I think people mention taurine as protection from glutamate, here is a quite from Haidut:


I take taurine myself too at 1g daily, 5 days a week. 2 days off in the weekend.

Yo dude!
I've been in the same boat copper turned me around from high tsh low T to high T and low Tsh excellent thyroid now
 

mrsuomi

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Hey guys I have been doing the carnivore diet and eating beef liver 150 gram every other day. My symptoms have improved very much. I started treating my coppper deficiency in 5 months ago and I'm now almost fully recovered. Even my neurological symptoms have improved . I also do fasting one meal a day
 

Andreas

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Hey guys I have been doing the carnivore diet and eating beef liver 150 gram every other day. My symptoms have improved very much. I started treating my copper deficiency in 5 months ago and I'm now almost fully recovered. Even my neurological symptoms have improved . I also do fasting one meal a day
I have a similar story as you (also from Sweden). I´ve been taking 50 mg zinc picolinate a day for quite some time and I´m 99% sure that I´m copper deficient. How did you fix your deficiency? Do you supplement with copper?
 

Motif

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Hey guys I have been doing the carnivore diet and eating beef liver 150 gram every other day. My symptoms have improved very much. I started treating my coppper deficiency in 5 months ago and I'm now almost fully recovered. Even my neurological symptoms have improved . I also do fasting one meal a day


How long after taking copper did your symptoms improve ?
 

mrsuomi

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How long after taking copper did your symptoms improve ?
It was when i stopped taking all supplments and went all meat diet focus on beef liver my symptoms started improving the most. I would say 6 months for almost full recovery. Remeber the most importan thing is to heal the gut, you can only do this by eating carnivore diet without dariy
 

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