Conundrum Of Coffee Luv And Acetylcholinesterase Inhibition

[whodathunkit]

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how (or if) Peat resolves his general antipathy towards acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitors with his love of coffee/caffeine? I've been reading a lot and can't find anything about it. Only one article so far where he talks about AChE and how it's good for us and more is generally better, but nothing about coffee in that article.

I see a lot of discussion around here about the benefits of coffee as well as some of the drawbacks, but any drawbacks people experience are usually chalked up to not supporting metabolism properly with sugar or other nutrients, or to individual biochemical problems with it. Almost nothing is ever said about coffee's effect on AChE, which IMO is one of the biggest deals with it, since inhibition of AChE can allow too much ACh to build up, and ACh is excitotoxic.

Coffee doesn't give me the jitters any more, thanks (I think) to improvement in liver function and probably overall nutritional status. But even when taken with lots of sugar, milk, and gelatin, it can still give me what I call privately "ACh-Up-It-Head", which is a generally overstimulated, fuzzy, stupid feeling that I also call fogbrain, (although brain fog may mean something else to others). My cognition and recall are pretty bad and coffee can make them worse. Not always, but sometimes.

I've also seen threads where IMO people were clearly describing symptoms from too much ACh and probably not enough AChE after drinking coffee, but the symptoms were ascribed to cortisol or other stress hormones.

Granted, I don't understand that much about the biochemistry of it (not due to lack of trying to understand but primarily due to accursed fogbrain), but it seems oxymoronic to dislike things in general that can easily cause excitotoxicity and yet still love caffeine/coffee. Because it does seem quite easy to induce excitotoxic symptoms with it. I think I've been inducing episodes my whole life, for example.

Can anyone 'splain this conundrum to me so that I see the rationality of using coffee despite it being an AChE inhibitor? Using little words and maybe pitchers? :p

Seriously, it's a point of interest and any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated. :)

 

[khan]

Thanks for bringing this up. I was wandering the same thing but was unable to put it nicely as you did. Now waiting for the replies.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Ditto, Dumbelina is curious about this too....and yet crickets chirping.

 

[whodathunkit]

I'm probably going to wind up emailing Himself about it. If I get a response I'll post it here. Meanwhile, I'm still reading and trying to figure it out.

 

[Drareg]

Coffee can effect thiamine(B1) ,sometimes supplementing thiamine with coffee could show if this is the cause your brain fog and other issues you ascribe to acetylcholine.
Acetylcholine is in eggs and other items he recommends, it has a purpose but probably not in high amounts which may occur under stress.

Would be interesting to get Ray Peats response.

 

[whodathunkit]

Coffee can effect thiamine(B1) ,sometimes supplementing thiamine with coffee could show if this is the cause your brain fog and other issues you ascribe to acetylcholine.

I do supplement with B1. It's not the problem. When I cut back coffee like I have lately it gets better.

Although I should've said earlier that I am still drinking coffee, just have cut the amount. I love it too much with gelatin, fructose, honey, and milk in the morning. ACh overload symptoms are better since I cut back.

 

[khan]

I do supplement with B1. It's not the problem. When I cut back coffee like I have lately it gets better.

Although I should've said earlier that I am still drinking coffee, just have cut the amount. I love it too much with gelatin, fructose, honey, and milk in the morning. ACh overload symptoms are better since I cut back.

"More-over, in a 3-week dietary intervention, depressed patients with a restricted intake of sucrose and caffeine, which also increases extra-cellular serotonin (Nehlig et al., 1992), experienced a persistent amelioration in depressive symptoms (Christensen and Burrows,1990). From page 170 of the Serotonin: Upper or downer"

I have managed to find this study (Nehlig et al., 1992). which I have attached here. Please have a look. Some folks here say you might have a problem with glycogen storage. You might find something relating to the symptoms you have mentioned.

 

[Peater Piper]

I do supplement with B1. It's not the problem. When I cut back coffee like I have lately it gets better.

Although I should've said earlier that I am still drinking coffee, just have cut the amount. I love it too much with gelatin, fructose, honey, and milk in the morning. ACh overload symptoms are better since I cut back.

Have you tried decaf? If it's just the taste and nutritional value you like, then avoiding most of the caffeine should relieve the symptoms if it's due to a build-up of ACh.

 

[NathanK]

What are excess ACh symtoms? If somebody had asked me this before today I would have guessed it was associated with allergic resonse.

Thanks for bringing this up. I wasnt aware of coffee's AChE inhibition properties.

I imagine this would be something to clear up for the coffee + nicotine users as well since I believe nicotine increases ACh.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

@whodathunkit Did you email him?

 

[whodathunkit]

@whodathunkit Did you email him?

No, haven't really had time. I may not get to it for a while.

 

[X3CyO]

Any concensus yet?
Havent reached one personally yet.
Currently looking into turpentine; seems great other than potential methanol. Seems to raise temps and is antimicrobial, modulates and upregulates gabaa receptors through alpha pinine. Gonna use that with vodka; maybe rum, instead of gin and beer.

 

[X3CyO]

^Posted to wrong thread

Im assuming peat supports the use of coffee due to nutrients, and the ability to increase progesterone and dht which increases cholinesterase, and activates the adrenergic system which is opposite to the cholinergic system.

In moderation should be fine. Id keep it to 300mg caffiene or less just in case.

Has anyone gotten a response from peat?

 

[ddjd]

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how (or if) Peat resolves his general antipathy towards acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitors with his love of coffee/caffeine? I've been reading a lot and can't find anything about it. Only one article so far where he talks about AChE and how it's good for us and more is generally better, but nothing about coffee in that article.

I see a lot of discussion around here about the benefits of coffee as well as some of the drawbacks, but any drawbacks people experience are usually chalked up to not supporting metabolism properly with sugar or other nutrients, or to individual biochemical problems with it. Almost nothing is ever said about coffee's effect on AChE, which IMO is one of the biggest deals with it, since inhibition of AChE can allow too much ACh to build up, and ACh is excitotoxic.

Coffee doesn't give me the jitters any more, thanks (I think) to improvement in liver function and probably overall nutritional status. But even when taken with lots of sugar, milk, and gelatin, it can still give me what I call privately "ACh-Up-It-Head", which is a generally overstimulated, fuzzy, stupid feeling that I also call fogbrain, (although brain fog may mean something else to others). My cognition and recall are pretty bad and coffee can make them worse. Not always, but sometimes.

I've also seen threads where IMO people were clearly describing symptoms from too much ACh and probably not enough AChE after drinking coffee, but the symptoms were ascribed to cortisol or other stress hormones.

Granted, I don't understand that much about the biochemistry of it (not due to lack of trying to understand but primarily due to accursed fogbrain), but it seems oxymoronic to dislike things in general that can easily cause excitotoxicity and yet still love caffeine/coffee. Because it does seem quite easy to induce excitotoxic symptoms with it. I think I've been inducing episodes my whole life, for example.

Can anyone 'splain this conundrum to me so that I see the rationality of using coffee despite it being an AChE inhibitor? Using little words and maybe pitchers? :p

Seriously, it's a point of interest and any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated. :)

is acetylcholinesterase the same as choline. ive seen they do a acetylcholinesterase, is that just a test for choline levels?

 

[whodathunkit]

is acetylcholinesterase the same as choline. ive seen they do a acetylcholinesterase, is that just a test for choline levels?

Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) is an enzyme that breaks down the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (ACh), which is made from choline. Too much ACh in the system causes a lot of problems. Ray likes AChE because of all the excitotoxicity (nerve cell death) issues that too much ACh in the system can bring on. So according to him, more AChE in the system is better.

Coffee is an AChE inhibitor...that is, it inhibits the formation or the action (can't remember exactly now) of AChE. Therefore, coffee actually encourages more ACh to circulate in the system, and therefore encourages excitotoxicity.

Never been able to resolve Ray's love of coffee with his stance on AChE. I never did email him about it. Maybe one day I will.

I don't know anything about the test for choline levels, sorry.

FWIW, I almost never drink coffee any more. I still love the taste so enjoy it occasionally, but it's not part of my diet. It's a treat or something I use like a drug if I need something to stimulate me, really quick.

Regardless of any nervous system issues, it also can be bad for a number of other issues, particularly women's health issues. It promotes fibroid cysts in both the uterus and breasts, for example.

Plus, drinking coffee with all the sugar Ray says is needed to metabolize it is REALLY REALLY BAD FOR THE TEETH. I'm fighting some ongoing dental issues right now that only manifested after a year or so of the Peat high-sugar/high coffee experiment. Some may say that I can't prove it was Peat style that caused these issues, but I say nobody can prove it *wasn't*, and I don't think it was coincidence that these problems occurred ONLY after a little over a year of Peat. So I'll continue to say that Peat style was a direct cause of m problems.

Bottom line is that coffee is acidic, and uses up too many macro- and micronutrients to metabolize it. Not worth it. It gives everyone some kind of problem eventually. My mother's been a coffee hound for 65 years and has had to cut back more and more over the last two decades because it just causes her too many problems, particularly with digestion and acid reflux. She's down to a half cup a day. I'm like, why bother?

And if you say that 45 years is a good run, I'd counter with why bother with something that was going to make you miserable in your old age, if you live that long? You may not live that long, true, but then again, you might. And if you do, you want to be in as good a shape as possible.

It's all about perspective, and people need some counter to the overly exuberant perspective around here that coffee is this benign substance that should be used daily in unlimited amounts to promote long-lasting health and well-being.

Caffeine is NOT a nutrient. It's not this benign substance, it's a potent stimulator of the metabolism. Overstimulation is not a good thing in anyone, even young healthy people. A healthy person with a healthy metabolism, which IMO is achievable with Peat strategies except for coffee and excess table sugar (note I said excess and am not dissing sugar in general), doesn't need coffee or caffeine, period.

 

[ddjd]

Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) is an enzyme that breaks down the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (ACh), which is made from choline. Too much ACh in the system causes a lot of problems. Ray likes AChE because of all the excitotoxicity (nerve cell death) issues that too much ACh in the system can bring on. So according to him, more AChE in the system is better.

Coffee is an AChE inhibitor...that is, it inhibits the formation or the action (can't remember exactly now) of AChE. Therefore, coffee actually encourages more ACh to circulate in the system, and therefore encourages excitotoxicity.

thanks for clarifying. im also very sensitive to coffee and have to stick to once a week at most

 

[james2388]

I am so bringing back this thread.... I'm interpreting this as plants create damaging and addictive psychoactive compounds to rewire our neuro transmitter pathways. To one creating a community around said plant. The dispersal of it's reproductive vessels/ seeds, beans, etc. To the eventually death of the animal ( fertilizer ) when it's consistently pushing tolerance levels. And of these mechanisms that don't intrinsically kill you of overdose, they present with autonomic regulation, dehydration, excessive urination, constipation, arrhythmia, insomnia, fatigue, so that when a predator comes along. They definitely get you and back to fertilizer.

So what's the deal with Caffeine supplementation, vs Coffee consumption. So many compounds in coffee. No chlorogenic acid in caffeine tablets.

 

[JCastro]

Caffeine selectively inhibits acetylcholinesterase on human recombinants of the enzyme, but “intake of caffeine in the form of chocolate, coffee, energy drinks, or tea probably does not cause significant biological effects based on AchE inhibition [...] We estimate that blood AChE is not significantly inhibited when people take one coffee. However, the combination of coffee and energy drink or caffeine tablets can easily reach plasmatic caffeine concentration when the AchE is inhibited.”

From: Caffeine Inhibits Acetylcholinesterase, But Not Butyrylcholinesterase (Pohanka & Dobes, 2013)

So it seems this is only a problem for people with underlying metabolic issues or for people who have too much.

I certainly notice more problems from caffeine when my gut is in bad shape or when I use it everyday for too long, like weeks or months at a time without breaks.

And it seems that genetically, some people metabolize acute doses much more slowly, but also that some people don't fully metabolize it even overnight into the next morning, so they're gradually building an indefinitely escalating dose in their system until they stop using it long enough to fully clear it out and reset tolerance.

There are many posts on this forum where people talk about initially great responses to caffeine that invariably turn into intolerance until they take breaks or find some other underlying reason. I don't think that it's always a nutrient problem.

 

[kaybb]

Caffeine selectively inhibits acetylcholinesterase on human recombinants of the enzyme, but “intake of caffeine in the form of chocolate, coffee, energy drinks, or tea probably does not cause significant biological effects based on AchE inhibition [...] We estimate that blood AChE is not significantly inhibited when people take one coffee. However, the combination of coffee and energy drink or caffeine tablets can easily reach plasmatic caffeine concentration when the AchE is inhibited.”

From: Caffeine Inhibits Acetylcholinesterase, But Not Butyrylcholinesterase (Pohanka & Dobes, 2013)

So it seems this is only a problem for people with underlying metabolic issues or for people who have too much.

I certainly notice more problems from caffeine when my gut is in bad shape or when I use it everyday for too long, like weeks or months at a time without breaks.

And it seems that genetically, some people metabolize acute doses much more slowly, but also that some people don't fully metabolize it even overnight into the next morning, so they're gradually building an indefinitely escalating dose in their system until they stop using it long enough to fully clear it out and reset tolerance.

There are many posts on this forum where people talk about initially great responses to caffeine that invariably turn into intolerance until they take breaks or find some other underlying reason. I don't think that it's always a nutrient problem.

When urine smells like coffee after consumer it, is this a sign of kidney problem or liver problem?

 

[FitnessMike]

I have not felt any stimulation from coffee for a long time already and only used it to speed transit time, i think i noticed that pulse drop and not raise from it.

Will stop coffee hopefully for a few days, along with other things that increase ach, and see if my pulse improves.