Control Pause Question

[ecstatichamster]

empiracally, Buteyko and CP emphasis DOES work though. It consistently produces striking improvements in health that nothing else can match. In my experience and working with others, it is a never-fail proposition, so long as the student does the exercises. Nothing works as well.

 

[Xisca]

Anyway, I've done the standard Buteyko breath holding exercise, but I still like holding the inhale sometimes instead. I've noticed I can get down to a couple inhalations per minute and continue pretty comfortably that way, assuming I'm inactive. Perhaps it's doing no good, though.

Ahanu is right "There may be a problem because holding breath after Inhalation is linked to a stress "state" and also the CP is meant as a measurement only not a exercise to raise co2"

Buteyko can look rigid, and it is because I guess he did not want to feel responsible for disgression before being fully informed!
Look at a sleeping dog and you will see that sometimes they look "dead", and they always have the apnea after exhale.
This is the proof of a para-sympathic state, when you have a spontaneous expiratory apnea.
Exercices force this state, but you are supposed to reach a moment you become able to maintain it without effort, when your body has switch to a para-state.
But life is alterning between those states, smoothly. When we are stuck, it is usually in the activated state, so it is good to have tips to modify it. like with breathing.

 

[Kasper]

empiracally, Buteyko and CP emphasis DOES work though. It consistently produces striking improvements in health that nothing else can match. In my experience and working with others, it is a never-fail proposition, so long as the student does the exercises. Nothing works as well.

But if those striking improvements in health look like this:



I'm not sure if I want that. Okay, this is very subjective of course. He doesn't look or talk like being really unhealthy or something, but there is something looking strange, not what I would associate with really good (or optimal) health.

I think Danny Roddy and Ray Peat look much more healthier, while I believe they don't have such a high CP. I must admit, if I would sleep less than 4 hours a day for years, I'm sure I would look much worse. But there is just a couple of strange stuff with buteyko. For example, the sleep time. Buteyko himself said to sleep like 2 hours a day, right? Do you think sleeping less than 4 hours is a good thing?

 

[tara]

Well having high carbon dioxide (relatively) would protect even if you have low metabolism. But fat burning or lactic acid metabolism would probably use too much oxygen to make acceptable carbon dioxide levels.

Seems likely.

 

[tara]

But if those striking improvements in health look like this:

Improvement is always relative to previous condition (or maybe alternative condition). I don't know what Rakhimov's background is, but a lot of people are motivated to figure things out about health because of their own difficulties.

 

[m_arch]

This may be true but it isn't what buteyko or Artour teach. They emphasize the cp as the primary way to measure results in increasing co2 levels and therefore better tissue oxygenation. I studied under Artour for quite awhile.

yes, artour / buteyko may be wrong though. ray doesn't seem to agree with them on CP - he favours the ETCO2 measurement.

personally I think both techniques would have a protective effect. even if a buteyko practitioner has a low ETCO2 measurement, I imagine that's because they are retaining co2 in their body and not breathing it out.

even if someone has a high ETCO2 measurement, I imagine they could be breathing it out pretty fast too.

so who has the most co2? I think you'd need to first standardize ETCO2 measruements and then test the CP.
For example if you have an ETCO2 measurement of 5.1% kPa, and my measurement is 6% kPa - I have a higher measurement.
But you may be able to hold your control pause for 40 seconds, and me only 10 seconds - so you have the higher measurement.

If we could somehow control for ETCO2 so that we're both at 5.5, our CP's then might be more similar. The person with the higher cp probably has greater co2 circulation / retention overall.

I'm not sure 100% on this, I've mostly been philosophising about it.

 

[m_arch]

Do you feel any different since having these numbers?

When I first started peating my metabolism wasn't perfect, I had lower morning temps which have since become perfect. When I got my capnometer my morning temps were already perfect, so it just confirmed this.

Although when my morning temps weren't perfect, I still had the same CP.

I feel warmer etc, the commonly listed benefits.

 

[m_arch]

It is a pity that arthour gets so much attention. He is kind of a hardliner and does add quite a bit which has not so much to do with buteyko.
"The Buteyko Method teaches you how to normalize your breathing. There is no special diet associated with the Method. The Buteyko Method is about rehabilitation of breathing, not what and how much you should eat and drink"
this quote is fromAndrey Novozhilov, MD. His mother married butyko and so he could learn personaly from him and his teaching(from the books) differs to artours quite a bit

I think Artour gets attention because he puts a lot of free info on his blog.

Also, I believe artour is right in what he says about keto diets, fasting, cold exposure, endurance exercise etc. They do seem to raise CP, but at the expense of metabolism.
Also, diet seems to have an impact. Eating a "high PH" diet will probably raise CP, as can be observed when drinking baking soda.

 

[m_arch]

empiracally, Buteyko and CP emphasis DOES work though. It consistently produces striking improvements in health that nothing else can match. In my experience and working with others, it is a never-fail proposition, so long as the student does the exercises. Nothing works as well.

One reason behind this phenomena could be that the increased co2 retention is protective.
If we look for a unifying theory with metabolism (that a high metabolism empirically fixes a tone of health problems too) - then it makes greater sense to aim for both.

If that's possible, i'm trying breathing exercises to raise my CP 4x a day while maintaining a high metabolism and i'm having a lot of difficulty. But I have spoken to others who have 45-60s CP with an ETCO2 of 6%. They haven't gotten back to me yet on wether their CP was always high or if they trained it up, though

 

[Peater Piper]

I think similar as why walking decreases CP (if you would measure it while walking). You have more CO2 production while walking.

You have more CO2 production when doing more strenuous activity as well, no? But people say you blow out all the CO2 and thus lower overall CO2 (assuming you're mouth breathing). Does walking and comfortable breathing through the nose actually raise CO2 levels in the body?

 

[Such_Saturation]

So let's say someone is creating plenty of carbon dioxide. He is also quite tolerant to carbon dioxide because he makes more than normal people. But control pause should bring him quickly out of his comfort zone just like it would for any other person because the level rises from your baseline no matter what it is. So the only way to have long control pause would be to produce little carbon dioxide?

 

[m_arch]

You have more CO2 production when doing more strenuous activity as well, no? But people say you blow out all the CO2 and thus lower overall CO2 (assuming you're mouth breathing). Does walking and comfortable breathing through the nose actually raise CO2 levels in the body?

Yes it does, at rest co2 of 6% is very high but I've recorded over 7 walking slowly. Haven't tested vigorous exercise yet tho

 

[Parsifal]

So let's say someone is creating plenty of carbon dioxide. He is also quite tolerant to carbon dioxide because he makes more than normal people. But control pause should bring him quickly out of his comfort zone just like it would for any other person because the level rises from your baseline no matter what it is. So the only way to have long control pause would be to produce little carbon dioxide?

Maybe someone should ask Ray about this, to know if the control pause thing is really important.

 

[Ahanu]

But control pause should bring him quickly out of his comfort zon

I think the control pause is IN the comfort zone.

 

[Ahanu]

Yes it does, at rest co2 of 6% is very high but I've recorded over 7 walking slowly. Haven't tested vigorous exercise yet tho

Thats may be a reason why exercise despite all negative effects has still a positive effect for so much people. Its generating CO2.

 

[Ahanu]

If that's possible, i'm trying breathing exercises to raise my CP 4x a day while maintaining a high metabolism and i'm having a lot of difficulty.

It just will take a little longer. Also getting to know, become aware of all the triggers that cause overbreathing is important. ( especialy thoughts, emotions etc..)Much more then nutrition.

 

[tara]

Also, diet seems to have an impact. Eating a "high PH" diet will probably raise CP, as can be observed when drinking baking soda.

Yes. Whether it's helpful or not health-wise to increase the alkalising effects of ones diet probably depends on where one is at to start with. Taken too far it can cause serious trouble. One of the symptoms of milk-alkali syndrome (serious trouble) is very slow breathing rate.

 

[Ahanu]

When I got my capnometer my morning temps were already perfect, so it just confirmed this.

So it seems that your metabolsim works fine in peat terms. Out of curiousity, why then do you want to improve your CP?

 

[m_arch]

So let's say someone is creating plenty of carbon dioxide. He is also quite tolerant to carbon dioxide because he makes more than normal people. But control pause should bring him quickly out of his comfort zone just like it would for any other person because the level rises from your baseline no matter what it is. So the only way to have long control pause would be to produce little carbon dioxide?

I think you can still build more tolerance to It. From what I know, it seems that more co2 the better. As long as sp02 isn't going too low, say under 94%

 

[m_arch]

Maybe someone should ask Ray about this, to know if the control pause thing is really important.

I posted a related reply on the first page, he seems to think etco2 and metabolism is primary.

But he does say metabolism and altitude are the best anti stress mechanisms, both focus on co2