Control Pause Question

[Parsifal]

But the breathing instinct is triggered by carbon dioxide sensors, not by cellular oxygenation.

So if you can increase your breathing retention (or control pause) it means that your metabolism is lower?

This may be true but it isn't what buteyko or Artour teach. They emphasize the cp as the primary way to measure results in increasing co2 levels and therefore better tissue oxygenation. I studied under Artour for quite awhile.

Isn't Artour fond of endurance exercises and ketogenic diet? Runners would be better at retaining their breath because of an anaerobic metabolism I think.

This is a really interesting topic.

 

[Such_Saturation]

No I'm saying there's no way to distinguish the two cases.

 

[Parsifal]

I follow Peat principals and have a high metabolism, my ETCO2 is between 5.7-6% (the normal being from 4-6% kPa), however my CP is low around 10-12 seconds.

Do you feel any different since having these numbers?

 

[Parsifal]

No I'm saying there's no way to distinguish the two cases.

Perhaps this is psychological then, if you feel very relaxed and warm I guess you would have a lot of CO2 but if you start yawning a lot and that you feel stress, breathless and cold it would mean that you are anaerobic and hypoxic?

 

[Ahanu]

It is a pity that arthour gets so much attention. He is kind of a hardliner and does add quite a bit which has not so much to do with buteyko.
"The Buteyko Method teaches you how to normalize your breathing. There is no special diet associated with the Method. The Buteyko Method is about rehabilitation of breathing, not what and how much you should eat and drink"
this quote is fromAndrey Novozhilov, MD. His mother married butyko and so he could learn personaly from him and his teaching(from the books) differs to artours quite a bit

 

[tara]

Speculating: If CO2 gets low, cells are more likely to be in hypoxic conditions, therefore more likely to go to glycolysis, which produces less CO2, continuing the reinforcing cycle. This could well be part of what makes it hard to get out of (along with lowered CO2 set point when it gets chronic).

Under normal conditions, breathing is driven by CO2 levels relative to the current CO2 set point. IIUC, there is point where tissue oxygen levels (which tissues?) get sufficiently low that this takes over as the driver for breathing. This then tends to increase hyperventilation, which worsens the hypoxia. Is this what happens in a panic attack?

 

[tara]

No I'm saying there's no way to distinguish the two cases.

Any reason why core temperature pattern wouldn't distinguish the two? Along with other measures like maintenance calorie consumption, and if one has fancier equipment, oxygen consumption? And symptoms?

 

[Blossom]

Any reason why core temperature pattern wouldn't distinguish the two? Along with other measures like maintenance calorie consumption, and if one has fancier equipment, oxygen consumption? And symptoms?

I think this is possibly one way-
indirect calorimetry

 

[Such_Saturation]

Yeah but they never say to use that stuff do they? They just count seconds and it still seems to correlate with health...

 

[tara]

Yeah but they never say to use that stuff do they? They just count seconds and it still seems to correlate with health...

I agree. As others have said, there are ways to increase CP by reducing metabolism. I see no reason not to pick out the useful parts of the method and skip the the most anti-metabolic ones.

 

[Ahanu]

Yeah but they never say to use that stuff do they

yeah thats right , nobody is perfect ;-)

They just count seconds and it still seems to correlate with health...

so what does that mean? better a high CP than a low.?Metabolism marker do not mean so much as long as you have a high CP? or what do you think?

 

[Ahanu]

I see no reason not to pick out the useful parts of the method and skip the the most anti-metabolic ones.

thats what i am thinking too. just stoping overbreathing is all i need from buteyko

 

[Such_Saturation]

Well having high carbon dioxide (relatively) would protect even if you have low metabolism. But fat burning or lactic acid metabolism would probably use too much oxygen to make acceptable carbon dioxide levels.

 

[Such_Saturation]

My take away is to check ETCO2 / morning temperature for good metabolism (which indicates good co2 production) whilst at the same time checking CP. Ideally have high in both.
I think where Peat disagrees with Buteyko is that you're right, control pause can get higher with a reduction in metabolism. But you want a high metabolism too.

a recent email response from Peat:

"Lots of the Buteyko people are now using devices, essentially tubes to increase the dead space, which I think are more practical than the timing method. Since metabolic rates vary tremendously, unless there’s a device to measure the end tidal CO2, it’s hard to tell whether a person’s CO2 retention is increasing, or their metabolic rate is decreasing. My end tidal CO2 is typically about 6%, while I’m breathing much faster than average, using much more oxygen. Breathing in a bag, or sitting in a plastic bag or bathtub full of CO2 (it’s heavier than air, so it stays in), is another way to get the body to adapt to a higher CO2. When someone’s tissues are loaded with the antithyroid polyunsaturated fatty acids, it’s a long process to get their lactate production down, CO2 production and retention up.

Eur J Clin Invest. 1989 Feb;19(1):65-71.
Adenosine receptor mediated stimulation of ventilation in man.
Jonzon B(1), Sylvén C, Beermann B, Brandt R.
(1)Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Huddinge University Hospital, Stockholm,
Sweden.
We wanted to examine how adenosine stimulates ventilation in man. Bolus doses of
adenosine were given i.v. in an antebrachial vein in multiples of 2.65 mg. The
minute ventilation was increased by adenosine 5.3 to 15.9 mg (median values) from
control 12.6 +/- 1.9 l min-1 to 42.5 +/- 4.7 l min-1 in a dose-dependent manner.
The adenosine receptor antagonist theophylline, 58.3 +/- 3.3 (mean +/- SEM) mumol
l-1 plasma, inhibited the response by approximately 25%. Dipyridamole 10 mg, an
adenosine uptake blocker, enhanced the effect of adenosine by approximately 60%.
The ventilation was not affected by metoprolol, atropine, naloxone or cromolyn
sodium but was attenuated by hyperventilation. The respiratory stimulation
started before chest pain and cardiovascular effects such as AV-block were
encountered. It is concluded that this respiratory stimulation shows
characteristics of adenosine receptor mediated responses but the location of such
adenosine receptors is uncertain. The findings are compatible with a stimulatory
or facilitating effect of adenosine on afferent pathways."

Nice, good info.

Speculating: If CO2 gets low, cells are more likely to be in hypoxic conditions, therefore more likely to go to glycolysis, which produces less CO2, continuing the reinforcing cycle. This could well be part of what makes it hard to get out of (along with lowered CO2 set point when it gets chronic).

Yes and they would feel less of a need to breathe in the short term... higher control pause... if their adrenaline isn't pumping, of course.

 

[Ahanu]

This threat reminds me a little bit of measuring the temperature and puls. both can be high but not for good reasons. just in comparison with other factors you may have a health indicator.

 

[Ahanu]

we are most fortunate because of peats infos we cannot fall in the "push CP no matter what" trap.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Artour didn't used to be pro-ketogenic. This is a new thing. I used to do it and he was kind of against it. For Artour, ANYTHING that raises your CP is good. Ketogenic diets raise CP. Why? I don't know.

Professor Buteyko wasn't a vegetarian but pointed out that red meat, and poultry and seafood lowered CP more than vegetarian foods. He recommended a variety of garnishes and spice, and wasn't against grains especially. But the measure of a food for YOU is to eat it and monitor your CP. If CP falls, then this food is bad for you.

 

[Kasper]

Ketogenic diets raise CP. Why? I don't know.

I think similar as why walking decreases CP (if you would measure it while walking). You have more CO2 production while walking.

In a ketogenic diet you have less CO2 production (fat oxidation gives less CO2 than glucose oxidation). So therefore higher CP.

 

[Ahanu]

For Artour, ANYTHING that raises your CP is good.

and thats the problem. it is just to naiv

 

[Ahanu]

just copy and paste form the random quote:"In the 1930’s accurate diagnosis was made by evaluating a variety of indications, including basal oxygen consumption, serum cholesterol level, pulse rate, temperature, carotenemia, bowel function, and quality of hair and skin."
so with this it should be no problem to see if the high CP is because of low metabolism!