Constant Insatiable Hunger, Extreme Stress, And Brain Fog All For 7 Years Now

somuch4food

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The IBS came later, far after hunger and brain fog. But I have not yet tried a low FODMAP diet, not sure if it would really help though. If I had bad bacteria wouldn't it be better to destroy it with anti-biotics than do a compensatory diet? Fiber is helpful and maybe not best to limit long term?

It depends if you agree with Ray's clean gut theory. I personally would avoid antibiotics, but you have to find your answer. I prefer to see the gut as something that needs to be modulated with the right lifestyle and diet.
 

Hans

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Fascinating. Do you think combining the Niacin with serotonin co-factors like tyrptohan, B6, methyl-folate, and magnesium, could help? I have high cortisol, and this apparently lowers serotonin as well, on top of what (we're assuming) is already low from inflammation and imbalances.
So, could this all just be low serotonin? I think I'll try this out...

My hair test showed that I had a high zinc/copper ratio, indicating I need more copper. I have taken copper supplements on and off for a few weeks + nuts/seed, so I think I'm good now. Hopefully.

Nothing traumatic at all. When I first took zinc years ago, I was euphoric. Amazing. A new person. Whatever it did, it was amazing. After a few weeks I rebounded, euphoria went away, and got the hunger/misery/terrible brain fog, and has stayed ever since for 7 years. To be honest, I did not want to blame those supplements, but I guess there is a correlation here...

In school all throughout my life, there were years where I had straight A's and was the smartest guy in the room, while other times I had brain fog and depersonalization....

So, I defiantly already had underlying imbalances, and those supplements triggered something.

SO.
Are there tests for the KP pathway? Or is this a trial and error type of thing?
Trytophan and niacin dosages?
I think you should specifically try the niacinamide and not niacin, unless you want to use the niacinamide during the day and the niacin after dinner before bed. That should be fine.
Don't combine it with other serotonin promoter supplements, such as tryptophan. Rather eat more animal protein. You must try to fix the root cause of what is causing the inflammation or neurotransmitter imbalance. Just try the niacinamide on it's own. Peat thinks a dose of 100mg x2-3 times daily is enough and studies have shown that up to 6g is safe. I'd use 500mg x3 daily.

I would also not rely on nuts and seeds for copper, but rather oysters and specifically beef/lamb liver. Eat about 2oz for 2-4 weeks daily to replenish your stores and then drop back to 4oz once a week if you still get benefit from it.

Yes you can test the KP activity. These guys offer a test: Neuroimmun GmbH - ELISA

Since your problems started after zinc supplementation I think fixing copper status should be the primary focus.
Have you tried selenium before?
 

Kunstruct

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Maybe it's because it affects iron and copper so much? In meat, it's always with accompanying co-factors, whereas supplement is highly isolated. Maybe.

I do occasionally take copper which makes me feel a lot calmer(good), but sadly does nothing for the hunger.
I did try B1 also. It was far to stimulating and made me hugrier....

Trust me my friend, I've tried tons of supplements with no avail. If I had a few thousand dollars to throw at medical testing, now that would be nice.

Sure, I was just sharing my experience. Some things only made it worse and can still make it worse for me, which can throw me off, so trying everything under the sun and waiting for a jackpot sound seems to not work for me.
As for B1 in the doses I have taken, 200-300mg, never found it too stimulating for me or to increase my appetite at least until now.
 
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Dan77

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I think you should specifically try the niacinamide and not niacin, unless you want to use the niacinamide during the day and the niacin after dinner before bed. That should be fine.
Don't combine it with other serotonin promoter supplements, such as tryptophan. Rather eat more animal protein. You must try to fix the root cause of what is causing the inflammation or neurotransmitter imbalance. Just try the niacinamide on it's own. Peat thinks a dose of 100mg x2-3 times daily is enough and studies have shown that up to 6g is safe. I'd use 500mg x3 daily.

I would also not rely on nuts and seeds for copper, but rather oysters and specifically beef/lamb liver. Eat about 2oz for 2-4 weeks daily to replenish your stores and then drop back to 4oz once a week if you still get benefit from it.

Yes you can test the KP activity. These guys offer a test: Neuroimmun GmbH - ELISA

Since your problems started after zinc supplementation I think fixing copper status should be the primary focus.
Have you tried selenium before?
I used to take multivitamins with about 20-30 mg of niacin daily for about a year or two before, but it somewhat made me worse, or did nothing.

Why the high dosage of 100 mgx3? Does it have to be on its own to work, and how long does it take to know if that's the solution or not?

Thanks for the link man, I really appreciate it a lot. I see it's a German company, nice... I have some family living in Germany!

Oh for sure, I eat TONS of meat, and have been using selenium supplements on and off now for a few years.
 
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Dan77

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Sure, I was just sharing my experience. Some things only made it worse and can still make it worse for me, which can throw me off, so trying everything under the sun and waiting for a jackpot sound seems to not work for me.
As for B1 in the doses I have taken, 200-300mg, never found it too stimulating for me or to increase my appetite at least until now.

"Trying everything under the sun and waiting for a jackpot sound seems to not work for me."

Preach my friend. Preach. My closet is full of trying supplements, so I know what you mean, but at the same time, what else do we do? Pour out $5000 on a bunch of random tests? All we can do is really guess or test.
 
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Dan77

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It depends if you agree with Ray's clean gut theory. I personally would avoid antibiotics, but you have to find your answer. I prefer to see the gut as something that needs to be modulated with the right lifestyle and diet.
Yeah I agree. I don't think all bacterias are bad... I may try something for the gut if all else fails, like maybe those herbal bacteria killers like garlic, turmeric, etc.
 

Hans

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I used to take multivitamins with about 20-30 mg of niacin daily for about a year or two before, but it somewhat made me worse, or did nothing.

Why the high dosage of 100 mgx3? Does it have to be on its own to work, and how long does it take to know if that's the solution or not?

Thanks for the link man, I really appreciate it a lot. I see it's a German company, nice... I have some family living in Germany!

Oh for sure, I eat TONS of meat, and have been using selenium supplements on and off now for a few years.
I think different vitamins in the B-complex made you worse, other than the B3.
100mg x3 daily isn't a high dose at all.

You don't have to take it on its own, but that will help give you an idea if it's working or not. You should feel effects immediately, or within a few days.
 

redsun

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Fascinating. Do you think combining the Niacin with serotonin co-factors like tyrptohan, B6, methyl-folate, and magnesium, could help? I have high cortisol, and this apparently lowers serotonin as well, on top of what (we're assuming) is already low from inflammation and imbalances.
So, could this all just be low serotonin? I think I'll try this out...

My hair test showed that I had a high zinc/copper ratio, indicating I need more copper. I have taken copper supplements on and off for a few weeks + nuts/seed, so I think I'm good now. Hopefully.

Nothing traumatic at all. When I first took zinc years ago, I was euphoric. Amazing. A new person. Whatever it did, it was amazing. After a few weeks I rebounded, euphoria went away, and got the hunger/misery/terrible brain fog, and has stayed ever since for 7 years. To be honest, I did not want to blame those supplements, but I guess there is a correlation here...

In school all throughout my life, there were years where I had straight A's and was the smartest guy in the room, while other times I had brain fog and depersonalization....

So, I defiantly already had underlying imbalances, and those supplements triggered something.

SO.
Are there tests for the KP pathway? Or is this a trial and error type of thing?
Trytophan and niacin dosages?

Zinc may lower adrenal hormones like noradrenaline/adrenaline excessively and its these hormones that help put the lid on food consumption in a way. Just do some intense sprints and notice how afterward you won't immediately be very hungry at all. It takes time for the adrenaline to go back down enough.

The times I have taken a lot of zinc (50mg basically everyday for years) gave me an insane appetite and made me gain weight. Zinc is needed for stomach acid production as well as B1 so increased appetite from B1 is no surprise. It also makes acetylcholine which is basically the opposite of noradrenaline in its effects. You could be stuck in a parasympathetic state and your sympathetic system is insanely weak likely due to copper/iron deficiency caused by zinc which is severely impeding your ability to make the catecholamines.

As hans already suggested, it would be wise for you to get on the liver train and eat quite a bit. Steady amounts for a while. Iron may be a problem as well though and you won't be able to make much more adrenal hormones if you lack the ability to make enough dopamine in the first place.
 
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Waynish

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At least one parasite cleanse is worth it. Turpentine is easiest it seems because you don't have to abstain from food except for around 30m since you consumed it. It is consumed with sugar on an empty stomach in the morning. Drink extra water and just make sure you don't get constipated while on it (or before starting it).
 

Hans

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Zinc may lower adrenal hormones like noradrenaline/adrenaline excessively and its these hormones that help put the lid on food consumption in a way. Just do some intense sprints and notice how afterward you won't immediately be very hungry at all. It takes time for the adrenaline to go back down enough.

The times I have taken a lot of zinc (50mg basically everyday for years) gave me an insane appetite and made me gain weight. Zinc is needed for stomach acid production as well as B1 so increased appetite from B1 is no surprise. It also makes acetylcholine which is basically the opposite of noradrenaline in its effects. You could be stuck in a parasympathetic state and your sympathetic system is insanely weak likely due to copper/iron deficiency caused by zinc which is severely impeding your ability to make the catecholamines.

As hans already suggested, it would be wise for you to get on the liver train and eat quite a bit. Steady amounts for a while. Iron may be a problem as well though and you won't be able to make much more adrenal hormones if you lack the ability to make enough dopamine in the first place.
Spleen is crazy high in iron, so if someone needs to replenish iron stores, spleen is probably the best source. A little bit of liver and a little bit of spleen would be a synergistic combo.
 

redsun

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Spleen is crazy high in iron, so if someone needs to replenish iron stores, spleen is probably the best source. A little bit of liver and a little bit of spleen would be a synergistic combo.

Tried to find spleen awhile ago for a relative so she didnt have to take iron supplements. Turns out it is very annoying to source in the US. But if you got your hands on it, it would be perfect for someone that needed it. Blood would work but most people are heavily morally opposed to that and also hard to source. I believe it actually has quite a bit of copper as well.

Its fitting of course, since anemia is also called lack of blood.
 

tara

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Lab tests? Yes.
Do you have the numbers for the thyroid test? The standard 'normal' range is quite broad.

Average day would be: Red meat, eggs, milk, olive oil, bread, beans/lentils, etc.
Not sure what's in the etc, or how much milk you are getting. What fruits and veges? Have you assessed calcium, magnesium, potassium intake? Do you find bread, beans and lentils easy to digest? Not everyone does.
I did try supplements to raise serotonin, and to my surprise the hunger went significantly down and I felt a lot normal, confirming the high cortisol/low serotonin connection. But I heard this supplement can cause serotonin syndrome so I stopped taking it in fear of the dangers.
Peat has 3 articles discussing serotonin here - you might be interested in his take on it:
Ray Peat
If I had bad bacteria wouldn't it be better to destroy it with anti-biotics than do a compensatory diet? Fiber is helpful and maybe not best to limit long term?
Have you tried a daily grated raw carrot salad? Something Peat suggests from time to time. I doubt its possible to maintain a sterile gut - there may be a case for supporting a good balance - and keep it moving with good transit, rather than overuse antibiotics and select for the resistant strains.
Diet is for the most part good.
Want to show the fruit and veges part too, and give some indication of quantities, calories, etc? 'Good' diet seems to have as many definitions as there are people. Nourishment seems like the first thing to be looking at.

I'm with Hans on trying niacinamide. I'd try a lower dose first (eg 50 - 100 mg x3/day) and gradually ramp up if you you find it helpful - too much at once can cause trouble for some people, and tolerance varies. And a little liver regularly.
Blood would work but most people are heavily morally opposed to that and also hard to source.
Don't they sell blood sausage in the US?
 
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Dan77

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I think different vitamins in the B-complex made you worse, other than the B3.
100mg x3 daily isn't a high dose at all.

You don't have to take it on its own, but that will help give you an idea if it's working or not. You should feel effects immediately, or within a few days.
Thanks man for the help. I have niacin in my closet, so i'll give it a try on the weekend. In case a negative reaction happens, It won't interfere with my work/school.
 
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Dan77

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Zinc may lower adrenal hormones like noradrenaline/adrenaline excessively and its these hormones that help put the lid on food consumption in a way. Just do some intense sprints and notice how afterward you won't immediately be very hungry at all. It takes time for the adrenaline to go back down enough.

The times I have taken a lot of zinc (50mg basically everyday for years) gave me an insane appetite and made me gain weight. Zinc is needed for stomach acid production as well as B1 so increased appetite from B1 is no surprise. It also makes acetylcholine which is basically the opposite of noradrenaline in its effects. You could be stuck in a parasympathetic state and your sympathetic system is insanely weak likely due to copper/iron deficiency caused by zinc which is severely impeding your ability to make the catecholamines.

As hans already suggested, it would be wise for you to get on the liver train and eat quite a bit. Steady amounts for a while. Iron may be a problem as well though and you won't be able to make much more adrenal hormones if you lack the ability to make enough dopamine in the first place.

So, I basically need tons of copper then? With niacin and nutrients to raise nonadrenaline? I did take tyrosine for catecholamines, but it did not do anything. Thoughts? Maybe I need the actual nutrient copper, and not just any ol' molecule even if it does the same thing?

Yes, I took tons of zinc for years and had the exact same symptoms. That damn supplement! Glad to see someone who can relate!

Did you end up fixing the hunger? With copper?
 
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Dan77

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Do you have the numbers for the thyroid test? The standard 'normal' range is quite broad.


Not sure what's in the etc, or how much milk you are getting. What fruits and veges? Have you assessed calcium, magnesium, potassium intake? Do you find bread, beans and lentils easy to digest? Not everyone does.

Peat has 3 articles discussing serotonin here - you might be interested in his take on it:
Ray Peat

Have you tried a daily grated raw carrot salad? Something Peat suggests from time to time. I doubt its possible to maintain a sterile gut - there may be a case for supporting a good balance - and keep it moving with good transit, rather than overuse antibiotics and select for the resistant strains.

Want to show the fruit and veges part too, and give some indication of quantities, calories, etc? 'Good' diet seems to have as many definitions as there are people. Nourishment seems like the first thing to be looking at.

I'm with Hans on trying niacinamide. I'd try a lower dose first (eg 50 - 100 mg x3/day) and gradually ramp up if you you find it helpful - too much at once can cause trouble for some people, and tolerance varies. And a little liver regularly.

Don't they sell blood sausage in the US?

I don't have the numbers, but we did do the TSH like 4 times throughout the years, and was always within the normal range. T3/T4 was also normal. My doc never gave me the actual tests though.

Thank you, I will read those articles. I just found out about Ray Peat and the website so I have some reading to do!

I know for a fact this is not diet. My diet is LOADED with red meat, eggs, fish, bread/potatoes/rice, and other fruits/vegetables. My diet is to good for this extreme amount of symptoms to be happening.

Diet is important, but genetics, biochemistry, enzymes, hormones, bacteria, and molecules are the main reason for disease, I believe. Most people can eat a terrible diet but still feel great if they're metabolically healthy, whereas those with hormonal problems or infections can eat the best diet in the world and still suffer anyway.
 

Momentum

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@Dan77
When you mentioned that copper at first made you feel euphoric, and then you crashed it reminded me that the exact same thing happened to the doc on this facebook group: RCCX and Chronic Illness Discussion She has a website by a similar name. I'm pretty sure it's on her facebook group though that she posted about her copper experience. (I apologize I don't have the exact page/link)
It has to do with excess copper vs bio -available copper. I can't remember the details, but I believe I have copper issues and am running labs to check. I also think it may be a genetic issue for me.

Have you ever tried Adderal? I'm just curious because it reduces appetite in many. They med community says it works as an appetite suppressant, but I have to wonder if it just normalizes appetite in those who have low dopamine.
 

somuch4food

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I know for a fact this is not diet. My diet is LOADED with red meat, eggs, fish, bread/potatoes/rice, and other fruits/vegetables. My diet is to good for this extreme amount of symptoms to be happening.

You could be eating too much proteins or have a bad proteins/carbs ratio. Maybe, cutting starch or sugar could help. There are issues with some plant compounds, etc. Without the details it's difficult to suggest some fine tuning.
 

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