Conjecture: Vitamin B6 And Zinc Reduce 5ar And DHT. This Treats Hair Loss, But May Not Be Safe

[dand]

Strongly disagree with the premise of the OP.

First of all, the full picture of DHT = hairloss is really much more complicated. DHT may be present in miniaturized hair follicles, but this is likely a correlation due to DHT accumulating to treat inflammation. It's some form(s) of inflammation leading to calcification, fibrosis causing loss of nutrients that is more likely to be miniaturizing the hair follicles. DHT is likely there as an after-effect, and remains in the scalp because the inflammation never clears (DHT likely anti-inflammatory: Rogaine, Propecia, and Avodart Will Never Reverse Hair Loss, Here's Why). Read more from this guy who summarizes the nuances in current theories nicely: The Leading Theories Of Pattern Hair Loss (And Where They Go Wrong)

Second of all, let me provide my own 'counter example' for whatever it's worth. As an amateur athlete and someone who has a busy and stressful work life, I started noticing higher estrogen/prolactin symptoms years ago. So researching over time led me to both Zinc and B6. I regularly take amounts that would probably make this forum wince - 100mg zinc on some days, and 250mg B6 (HCL form though). Lower doses on maybe half the days, but around that dose on high activity days, especially high sexual activity days. I also take other major minerals and vitamins regularly to balance these out.

If DHT has to do with energy, libido, masculinity, etc, I can assure you my dosages are not diminishing these in any such way. Quite the opposite

In this link @haidut quotes a study of the active form of B6 being an effective anti stress therapy: Vitamin B6 As Effective, General Anti-stress Therapy "vitamin B6 is anti-stress (both adrenalin and cortisol) and pro-GABA."

He mentions 25mg as a dose. I've also read him state that conversion for the HCL form of B6 might be only 1:10, so interestingly enough my 250mg B6 HCL dose matches up with this dosage, didn't even realize lol.

Now to be fair I think my personal needs of nutrients are very different from most people, I really do 'burn the candle at both ends'. But overall these two in particular I know have been a net positive, and I don't think people should be afraid of experimenting with them, especially if they believe they're higher in the stress hormone departments.

I would agree with this assessment. B6 and Zinc improve my energy, libido, masculinity.

 

[AnonE]

More on zinc:

- Reversing zinc deficiency doubles (older men) or triples (younger men) testosterone in human trial: Zinc status and serum testosterone levels of healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI
* "we measured serum testosterone before and during marginal zinc deficiency induced by restricting dietary zinc intake." Given that our food is grown on nutrient-depleted soils of other crucial minerals (magnesium, selenium come to mind), would it be surprising if most people who didn't supplement had a zinc deficiency?
* Dosage in trial says 459 µmol/day, which I think converts to 30mg/day, but cannot confirm the accuracy of this. It seems to make sense, common dose to buy at the pharmacy lol.

- For athletes: Zinc megadose gives 40 percent more free testosterone
* "If you give athletes a daily dose of 3 mg zinc sulfate [appr. 1 mg elemental zinc] per kg bodyweight, after four weeks they'll have 40 percent more free testosterone in their blood."
* Even if you're not a regular athlete, don't you think regular physical exercise over the years, followed by a mineral-depleted diet that fails to replenish what your body loses, could lead to zinc deficiency?
* Some follow up notes on potential long-term high supplementation risks, but nothing conclusive.

- Zinc increasing both T and DHT in human study on conception: Effect of zinc administration on plasma testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and sperm count. - PubMed - NCBI
* Increases T and DHT in low Test men; increases DHT otherwise in regular Test men.
* Helped treat infertility in the low Test group.

- Here's the study everyone references on "zinc inhibiting 5-AR activity", even examine.com lists as a reference in their zinc article: Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid. - PubMed - NCBI
* First of all, this is in vitro. Some cells in a petri dish.
* This is a form of zinc being applied on skin cells, not being digested as food/supplement and having a human body direct it as needed.
* Plus they're adding "Azelaic acid" in their tests - "It is a precursor to diverse industrial products including polymers and plasticizers, as well as being a component of a number of hair and skin conditioners." Yikes. Azelaic acid - Wikipedia
* "At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity." In a petri dish, I'm sure if you bombarded skin cells with high concentrations of anything you could mess up some enzymes.
* Did they bother looking at other enzymes that might have been inhibited?
* "Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc" oh look at that, when you balance nutrients with co-factors maybe they don't ruin enzyme function.
* Using this study to leap to zinc lowering DHT in humans is absolutely ridiculous in my eyes.
* Ironically hair loss suffers take zinc thinking it lowers DHT thinking DHT is the problem. When ironically they may have success lowering stress hormones, increasing DHT, and regrowing some thinning hair. Ex: Zinc Deficiency Associated with Hypothyroidism: An Overlooked Cause of Severe Alopecia (also: back to thyroid health, hmmm :) )

---

Here's what I'd say. If you're already a healthy man and generally have good androgens and energy levels and aren't an athlete, mega-dosing 100mg+ of zinc probably isn't necessary (duh). But if something's missing for you in the masculinity department... I think it's worth a shot.

 

[What-a-Riot]

More on zinc:


* "At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity." In a petri dish, I'm sure if you bombarded skin cells with high concentrations of anything you could mess up some enzymes.
* Did they bother looking at other enzymes that might have been inhibited?
* "Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc" oh look at that, when you balance nutrients with co-factors maybe they don't ruin enzyme function.

Good post, but this point seems off. Feels like you're taking that to mean that b6 rectified or ameliorated zinc's inhibition of 5-ar, but it actually amplified it. Am I reading you wrong there?

 

[Frankdee20]

How much Zinc are we talking about here as the accepted dosage for 5 alpha inhibition ? Some people report B 6 at dosages exceeding 100 MG has an anti Estrogen effect.

 

[Frankdee20]

Those individuals are not only "haloed" by insane status. But also Have Massive masculine skulls and above average faces, Jason Jaw is ridiculousness.

The average balding guy has Low T, High Estrogen, Cortisol anxiety...etc. Which is where women get the "consenses" that they hate balding/receding men and hate their genetics.

.

just lol

That guy is a loser LOL.

 

[AnonE]

@What-a-Riot I think you're correct, I mis-read that point. I don't think it takes away from the overall argument that 1 weird in vitro study shouldn't carry more weight than multiple in vivo / real human studies showing the opposite.

 

[mrchibbs]

That guy is a loser LOL.

Not a super nice vibe, to just label someone a loser like that

 

[baccheion]

I've made two posts on Peatarian.com about this topic, and it'd be easier to just read my original posts there.

http://peatarian.com/52211/hypothesis-b ... e-hormones

http://peatarian.com/52219/how-do-b6-zi ... -synthesis

Basically, zinc and B6 in combination should inhibit 5ar (and thus DHT). This treats hair loss.

However, 5ar also synthesizes neuroprotective hormones. A common symptom of finasteride (which reduces 5ar) is brain fog.

If zinc and B6 inhibit 5ar in a similar fashion, using these as a natural hair loss therapy may also be undesirable.

This is easy to verify. Check testosterone/DHT/estrogen/SHBG/progesterone levels, take 50 mg zinc (from all sources) for a few months, then check again. Or just check DHT, I suppose.

 

[success23]

I guess zinc can lower DHT by suppressing aromatase.
DHT increases when estrogen increases, so if zinc lowers E it will lower DHT also.

 

[mrchibbs]

I guess zinc can lower DHT by suppressing aromatase.
DHT increases when estrogen increases, so if zinc lowers E it will lower DHT also.

More importantly zinc decreases prolactin. That's the #1 pathway for its hair benefits. And B6 is required but it can be made from riboflavin, so liver is a good source.
I think everyone with baldness suffers from some sort of trans-generational mineral deficiency. Lots of oysters is to me, a prerequisite for any ''baldness treatment''.

 

[success23]

I wonder how people came up with the >50 mg of zinc inhibits aromatase.

 

[GutFeeling]

Found more about that umol dosage, apparently is the double of the rda, so 20mg?
Nutrition, Fertility, and Human Reproductive Function

 

[mrchibbs]

Found more about that umol dosage, apparently is the double of the rda, so 20mg?
Nutrition, Fertility, and Human Reproductive Function

That seems like an interesting book!

I suspect balding guys may have a need for several times the RDA in Zinc. I prefer oysters to supplements though.

 

[GutFeeling]

That seems like an interesting book!

I suspect balding guys may have a need for several times the RDA in Zinc. I prefer oysters to supplements though.

Probably.
For me zinc is the holy grail for skin
Nails and hair seemed to get better too

 

[mrchibbs]

Probably.
For me zinc is the holy grail for skin
Nails and hair seemed to get better too

I've been paying more attention to Ray's comments about transgenerational effects, and reading the literature, and it seems like for instance zinc could be low for several generations, leading to a permanent trait of elevated prolactin = expressed as a tendency for hair loss. I think supplements are not a good idea, because of interactions with copper, selenium etc. But oysters, liver, are a very good idea.

"Thus zinc acts in a dynamic manner to selectively influence pituitary prolactin secretion." Judd, A.M. (1984)⠀
⠀

 

[GutFeeling]

I've been paying more attention to Ray's comments about transgenerational effects, and reading the literature, and it seems like for instance zinc could be low for several generations, leading to a permanent trait of elevated prolactin = expressed as a tendency for hair loss. I think supplements are not a good idea, because of interactions with copper, selenium etc. But oysters, liver, are a very good idea.

"Thus zinc acts in a dynamic manner to selectively influence pituitary prolactin secretion." Judd, A.M. (1984)⠀
⠀

Wow, really interesting, appreciate it, thanks.
Apparently 30mg of zinc supplement doesn't affect Cooper balance, I will search a bit more later. I'm sure oysters are better than supplements. Btw I'm just eating one of the most delicious liver that I've had ever eaten, not exactly on topic but seems almost like synchronicity lol

 

[redsun]

I've been paying more attention to Ray's comments about transgenerational effects, and reading the literature, and it seems like for instance zinc could be low for several generations, leading to a permanent trait of elevated prolactin = expressed as a tendency for hair loss. I think supplements are not a good idea, because of interactions with copper, selenium etc. But oysters, liver, are a very good idea.

"Thus zinc acts in a dynamic manner to selectively influence pituitary prolactin secretion." Judd, A.M. (1984)⠀

My hair/nails grew at lightning speed when I took zinc 50mg and was the best quality despite the many mental side effects I got from that dose. And at that dose you only absorb not even 30mg of zinc.

 

[mrchibbs]

My hair/nails grew at lightning speed when I took zinc 50mg and was the best quality despite the many mental side effects I got from that dose. And at that dose you only absorb not even 30mg of zinc.

That's partly why I prefer natural sources of zinc, I too experienced side effects from zinc on its own. Oysters are a different story altogether, because they have the right balance with copper and other micronutrients we don't even know about.

 

[mrchibbs]

Wow, really interesting, appreciate it, thanks.
Apparently 30mg of zinc supplement doesn't affect Cooper balance, I will search a bit more later. I'm sure oysters are better than supplements. Btw I'm just eating one of the most delicious liver that I've had ever eaten, not exactly on topic but seems almost like synchronicity lol

Liver can be delicious if it's fresh and of good quality. I suspect vitamin A may oxidize when the liver is too old.
And yeah, next to oysters, liver has probably the best zinc/copper balance one can find.