Confusion about T use

Borz

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In this recent talk Georgi is endorsing very high dose Testosterone use (100 mg a day), saying (according to the study) even 50 mg per day wasn't good enough. I'm very confused now, since I saw him recommend a physiological dose of about 5 mg per day. I use a few milligrams of T transscrotally (dissolved in DMSO) daily, I wonder if it's a good idea to increase the dose. I guess @TheBeard was right about recommending high dose T? I guess the estrogen can be controlled with Exemestane etc., but what about HPTA axis shutdown and other issues? He says underdosing can be an issue and make things worse. and 5 mg seems like an underdose from this point of view. @haidut did you change your opinion on using low physiological doses of T? It would be great if you could clarify.

time stamp: 28:55 - 31:41


Another thing is Georgi says administering Cortisol Receptor Blockers causes blood levels of cortisol to rise. Does this mean things like Emodin will actually increase cortisol?

time stamp: 25:43 - 26:00

@Hans @CLASH @SonOfEurope

 

Jayvee

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How do you get on with 5mg of T transcrotally? Do you notice benefits or negatives? I was thinking of trying this myself and a similar dose. I imagine it's completely dependent on individuals and desires outcome.
 

DDRB

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I use 100mg of testosterone a day it has pretty much taken away my anxiety issues and helps me with sports, I'm very happy with it.
The HPTA axis will come back when you stop, especially if you have limited your testicle size reduction with HCG or even pregnenolone.
I'm on pregnenolone under advice from people on this forum and it seems to work.
 

Hans

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In this recent talk Georgi is endorsing very high dose Testosterone use (100 mg a day), saying (according to the study) even 50 mg per day wasn't good enough. I'm very confused now, since I saw him recommend a physiological dose of about 5 mg per day. I use a few milligrams of T transscrotally (dissolved in DMSO) daily, I wonder if it's a good idea to increase the dose. I guess @TheBeard was right about recommending high dose T? I guess the estrogen can be controlled with Exemestane etc., but what about HPTA axis shutdown and other issues? He says underdosing can be an issue and make things worse. and 5 mg seems like an underdose from this point of view. @haidut did you change your opinion on using low physiological doses of T? It would be great if you could clarify.

time stamp: 28:55 - 31:41


Another thing is Georgi says administering Cortisol Receptor Blockers causes blood levels of cortisol to rise. Does this mean things like Emodin will actually increase cortisol?

time stamp: 25:43 - 26:00

@Hans @CLASH @SonOfEurope


When it comes to oral use, you need to use large doses frequently. Like 100mg daily or x2 daily or even higher. Like 300-400mg orally.
If you want to inject, 100-150mg weekly should get you into the upper range of normal.
In terms of topical use, like a cream or gel, 25-50mg daily should be good to get you into the desired range.
In terms of suppression, replacement dose of T suppresses LH by about 50-60% depending on the dose. Injection suppresses LH about 80% for much longer (due to having a long half-life), so injection is more suppressive than topical use.
 

brix

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I use 100mg of testosterone a day it has pretty much taken away my anxiety issues and helps me with sports, I'm very happy with it.
The HPTA axis will come back when you stop, especially if you have limited your testicle size reduction with HCG or even pregnenolone.
I'm on pregnenolone under advice from people on this forum and it seems to work.
how much preg per day with that 100mg test? and are you using test topically or injecting?
 

tankasnowgod

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It would be great if Haidut could post the study he was referencing in this thread.

I found this study, which had similar results. It was conducted in young men, and used a GnRH agonist to suppress endogenous T production, and then gave either 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk of testosterone enanthate. So, roughly comparable to the study he mentioned. The first two groups were either low or low normal, the 125 group was mid-range of normal, the 300mg was high normal, and the 600mg group was supraphysiological, more than twice the high end of the range for T. Sure enough, the last two groups saw both increased muscle mass, and decreased body fat.


I don't know if doses would have to be as high in the study, since most people who go on TRT aren't simultaneously taking some other drug to completely suppress T and other steroids.

I have also been thinking that combining T with Cyproheptadine might be a powerful tool, but haven't seen any studies that suggest this. The following study did show that cyproheptadine was able to lower ACTH and was able to raise Testosterone some, but T was still low, despite doubling.

 

Matestube

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When it comes to oral use, you need to use large doses frequently. Like 100mg daily or x2 daily or even higher. Like 300-400mg orally.
If you want to inject, 100-150mg weekly should get you into the upper range of normal.
In terms of topical use, like a cream or gel, 25-50mg daily should be good to get you into the desired range.
In terms of suppression, replacement dose of T suppresses LH by about 50-60% depending on the dose. Injection suppresses LH about 80% for much longer (due to having a long half-life), so injection is more suppressive than topical use.

With topical use of T base there is virtually no lasting shutdown, it only exists while using.
After 9 months of continuous use of 100mg/day of T base, I quit cold turkey. A month later my labs showed the same total T results as before I started, around 550ng/dl.
 

tankasnowgod

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With topical use of T base there is virtually no lasting shutdown, it only exists while using.
After 9 months of continuous use of 100mg/day of T base, I quit cold turkey. A month later my labs showed the same total T results as before I started, around 550ng/dl.
I've heard other people say similar things.

I wonder if "shutdown" is more an issue with synthetic versions.
 

golder

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With topical use of T base there is virtually no lasting shutdown, it only exists while using.
After 9 months of continuous use of 100mg/day of T base, I quit cold turkey. A month later my labs showed the same total T results as before I started, around 550ng/dl.
Do you think there is a way of slowing down the transcrotal absorption? I hate applying twice a day, but get the best results from it. Do you think a thin layer of vitamin E as a base layer before applying the cream would work to this effect?
 

Matestube

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Do you think there is a way of slowing down the transcrotal absorption? I hate applying twice a day, but get the best results from it. Do you think a thin layer of vitamin E as a base layer before applying the cream would work to this effect?
Have you done bloodwork 24h after T+DMSO application ?
Levels might as well still be elevated thanks to the skin acting as a reservoir.
Might be more relevant if applied to the belly than scrotum though.
 

golder

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Have you done bloodwork 24h after T+DMSO application ?
Levels might as well still be elevated thanks to the skin acting as a reservoir.
Might be more relevant if applied to the belly than scrotum though.
I don’t use DMSO due to skin irritation, I use the pentravan/liposomal gel mix from NP.
Any other creative ways to slow down a absorption?
 

Matestube

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I don’t use DMSO due to skin irritation, I use the pentravan/liposomal gel mix from NP.
Any other creative ways to slow down a absorption?

NP's test base gave me poor lab results, I don't think it absorbs well at all.
 

Hans

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With topical use of T base there is virtually no lasting shutdown, it only exists while using.
After 9 months of continuous use of 100mg/day of T base, I quit cold turkey. A month later my labs showed the same total T results as before I started, around 550ng/dl.
Yes exactly. Studies show endogenous T goes back to normal after about 2 days of quitting. Did you check to see how high your T was on that amount of T? Also, where did you apply it?
 

ATP

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Where are people even getting testosterone from, is it all just untrustworthy powders from China?
 

Matestube

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Yes exactly. Studies show endogenous T goes back to normal after about 2 days of quitting. Did you check to see how high your T was on that amount of T? Also, where did you apply it?
On scrotum.
I did a lab once but my application schedule was inconsistent.
Total T was around 2000ng/dl 12h after.
 

golder

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NP's test base gave me poor lab results, I don't think it absorbs well at all.
Interesting. Steve Devos was around 1500ng/dl after 150mg am scrotal application. I wonder why yours came back poor?
I still want to compare it to DMSO because I’m an experiment junkie.
 

Matestube

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Interesting. Steve Devos was around 1500ng/dl after 150mg am scrotal application. I wonder why yours came back poor?
I still want to compare it to DMSO because I’m an experiment junkie.
I perfectly shave and wash my scrotum, applied 3 clicks morning and 3 clicks evening, let it dry for a full 20 minutes, and yet my total T was only 1050ng/dl 6 hours after application.
 
OP
Borz

Borz

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How do you get on with 5mg of T transcrotally? Do you notice benefits or negatives? I was thinking of trying this myself and a similar dose. I imagine it's completely dependent on individuals and desires outcome.
when I first started I was having estrogen issues, so I stopped the T for a while. I made a DHT in DMSO solution and also Exemestane in DMSO. I had good experience with those. I have high estrogen issues, high body fat, so I have high aromatase activity. After using Exemestane and DHT for a while I could start using T again with no issues (DHT alone wasn't enough). Scrotal T application might be giving me weaker erections, I keep experimenting with applying to different areas, I'm not sure what's best for me yet. What I do know for sure is using some DHT in addition to T on scrotum, feels better than using just T on scrotum. I guess this depends on the T dose, if the T dose on scrotum is high then additional DHT probably isn't needed, but with only 5mg T on scrotum, additional DHT makes a difference for me (I'm not using DHT on scrotum). 4-6mg DHT feels like a good dose.

I use 100mg of testosterone a day it has pretty much taken away my anxiety issues and helps me with sports, I'm very happy with it.
The HPTA axis will come back when you stop, especially if you have limited your testicle size reduction with HCG or even pregnenolone.
I'm on pregnenolone under advice from people on this forum and it seems to work.
how much pregnenolone are you using?

When it comes to oral use, you need to use large doses frequently. Like 100mg daily or x2 daily or even higher. Like 300-400mg orally.
If you want to inject, 100-150mg weekly should get you into the upper range of normal.
In terms of topical use, like a cream or gel, 25-50mg daily should be good to get you into the desired range.
In terms of suppression, replacement dose of T suppresses LH by about 50-60% depending on the dose. Injection suppresses LH about 80% for much longer (due to having a long half-life), so injection is more suppressive than topical use.
Thank you for this Hans. do you think 10mg T (in DMSO) per day topically, in two doses (5mg twice a day), would be suppressive? Or is it better to stick to 5mg T a day at most to avoid risk of suppression instead of 10mg? Also, do you have an opinion about Dr. Keith Nichol's Androgen Resistance Syndrome and his very high dose scrotal T recommendations?

With topical use of T base there is virtually no lasting shutdown, it only exists while using.
After 9 months of continuous use of 100mg/day of T base, I quit cold turkey. A month later my labs showed the same total T results as before I started, around 550ng/dl.
that's good to know. thanks.

Do you think there is a way of slowing down the transcrotal absorption? I hate applying twice a day, but get the best results from it. Do you think a thin layer of vitamin E as a base layer before applying the cream would work to this effect?
I think vitamin E is not recommended on the scrotum (from haidut)

I don’t use DMSO due to skin irritation, I use the pentravan/liposomal gel mix from NP.
Any other creative ways to slow down a absorption?
strangely, DMSO doesn't cause skin irritation on the scrotum for me, it causes irritation almost everywhere else (mild itching/burning/peeling/temporary redness), but not on scrotum.

Where are people even getting testosterone from, is it all just untrustworthy powders from China?
Purple Panda Labs. it has good reputation. I think even Peat mentioned them.
 

Hans

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Thank you for this Hans. do you think 10mg T (in DMSO) per day topically, in two doses (5mg twice a day), would be suppressive? Or is it better to stick to 5mg T a day at most to avoid risk of suppression instead of 10mg? Also, do you have an opinion about Dr. Keith Nichol's Androgen Resistance Syndrome and his very high dose scrotal T recommendations?
People with low T get much less suppression for T, since LH is already a bit low. And T suppresses LH in a dose-dependent manner. Let's say 50mg daily lowers LH by 50%, so it goes from 6 to 3. So it's not like LH is crushed. And when you use T topically, it peaks around 2 hours and then declines steadily until it's back to baseline at around 14-16 hours. As T declines over time, LH increases. So if you use T, it's not like you suppress yourself in a very black and white way so to speak. Plus, once you stop, LH bounces back within 2 days.
I'm not sure if 5mg daily is enough to improve how you feel, but 25-50mg should definitely improve how you feel. I really enjoyed the effects of 1-2mg 11-keto DHT, but my baseline is already high. So small doses can definitely work, but it will differ from person to person.
I haven't heard of Dr. Keith Nichol's androgen resistance syndrome yet. Does he say that acute use of very high dose helps or chronic use of high dose? Zinc and vit D are very important for the AR to work properly.
 
OP
Borz

Borz

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People with low T get much less suppression for T, since LH is already a bit low. And T suppresses LH in a dose-dependent manner. Let's say 50mg daily lowers LH by 50%, so it goes from 6 to 3. So it's not like LH is crushed. And when you use T topically, it peaks around 2 hours and then declines steadily until it's back to baseline at around 14-16 hours. As T declines over time, LH increases. So if you use T, it's not like you suppress yourself in a very black and white way so to speak. Plus, once you stop, LH bounces back within 2 days.
I'm not sure if 5mg daily is enough to improve how you feel, but 25-50mg should definitely improve how you feel. I really enjoyed the effects of 1-2mg 11-keto DHT, but my baseline is already high. So small doses can definitely work, but it will differ from person to person.
I haven't heard of Dr. Keith Nichol's androgen resistance syndrome yet. Does he say that acute use of very high dose helps or chronic use of high dose? Zinc and vit D are very important for the AR to work properly.
when you say 25-50mg, are you talking about fully absorbed amount (as in DMSO topically), or are you talking about cream/gel/oral? The member TheBeard was using 25mg T in DMSO twice a day (50mg total) transscrotally, he said he felt best on this dose.

Dr. Nichols has his patients chronically using high dose T I think. He believes things like xenoestrogens are blocking the androgen receptors, so he thinks high doses are needed for men to get the most benefit today. I feel the real issue might be low 5-AR activity in most men today. TheBeard was a proponent of Dr. Nichol’s ideas.
 

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