Confused about hypothyroidism and its treatment

[definitely mayb]

I've read Ray's articles on thyroid, as well as Danny Roddy's article on thyroid supplementation. I've also read much of Ray's other work, and have listened to a lot of material from the Generative Energy podcast. However, I still find myself confused about hypothyroidism and its treatment.

I think Broda Barnes would argue that if your body temperature and pulse rate is low, you're hypothyroid. (Full disclosure, I'm inferring this secondhand. The book is in the mail!) But obviously your body temps depend on mitochondrial performance. And so I would think that chain of reasoning (low temp -> hypothyroid) is not so simple: i.e., your thyroid could be performing optimally, but you could have impaired mitochondrial function.

Further, I find myself confused that Danny, who I assume has been living the "Ray Peat lifestyle" for around a decade or more, has not been able to restore natural thyroid function. Ray himself also supplements thyroid, but obviously has experienced more bodily wear and tear. Am I to infer that the average person is also not able to restore natural thyroid function via lifestyle interventions?

I write this from the perspective a 36 year old male with low body temperatures. (Typically, my temp on waking is around 97.6 F, and it generally stays around that level until later in the day.) My TSH is 0.79. So, unless I can find a Peaty doctor, I think the only way I would be able to supplement thyroid hormone is by ordering it online, which I'm less inclined to do.

For about the last month or two I've been trying to raise my temps through strict PUFA avoidance, aspirin supplementation, focusing on calcium/phosphate, and amino acid balance. I notice that aspirin helps temps somewhat. But I can't say I've noticed any improvements when I'm not taking it. I know from Ray's writings that PUFA and certain amino acids are thyroid suppressive. So maybe I would need to keep this up. But the fact that others in the community can live this way and still need to supplement leaves me wondering. And I further wonder whether it wouldn't be more optimal to supplement thyroid in the short term, while also continuing the aforementioned lifestyle interventions.

Curious what you all think.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I think Broda Barnes would argue that if your body temperature and pulse rate is low, you're hypothyroid. (Full disclosure, I'm inferring this secondhand. The book is in the mail!) But obviously your body temps depend on mitochondrial performance. And so I would think that chain of reasoning (low temp -> hypothyroid) is not so simple: i.e., your thyroid could be performing optimally, but you could have impaired mitochondrial function.

Further, I find myself confused that Danny, who I assume has been living the "Ray Peat lifestyle" for around a decade or more, has not been able to restore natural thyroid function. Ray himself also supplements thyroid, but obviously has experienced more bodily wear and tear. Am I to infer that the average person is also not able to restore natural thyroid function via lifestyle interventions?

In one paragraph you say "optimal thyroid function," and in the next, start talking about "natural thyroid function." Which is it? "Natural" and "normal" thyroid function might not be anywhere near "optimal."

Barnes's book suggests that at least 40% of the population is hypothyroid, and could benefit from treatment. It was written in the 70's, and there have been a massive increase PUFA consumption since then, which may led to an even greater rise in that percentage.

Also, Peat notes that a significant amount of thyroid hormone may have traditionally been eaten in various foods, including milk, lobster, and even thyroids used in ground beef. This could have provided people anywhere from 0.5-2 grains of thyroid a day, on average. Some of these foods aren't commonly eaten anymore, and animal thyroids are not used in ground beef anymore. It's quite possible that even a "normal" thyroid operating at in peak condition was still dependent on some exogenous thyroid for peak metabolism.

 

[definitely mayb]

In one paragraph you say "optimal thyroid function," and in the next, start talking about "natural thyroid function." Which is it? "Natural" and "normal" thyroid function might not be anywhere near "optimal."

Barnes's book suggests that at least 40% of the population is hypothyroid, and could benefit from treatment. It was written in the 70's, and there have been a massive increase PUFA consumption since then, which may led to an even greater rise in that percentage.

Also, Peat notes that a significant amount of thyroid hormone may have traditionally been eaten in various foods, including milk, lobster, and even thyroids used in ground beef. This could have provided people anywhere from 0.5-2 grains of thyroid a day, on average. Some of these foods aren't commonly eaten anymore, and animal thyroids are not used in ground beef anymore. It's quite possible that even a "normal" thyroid operating at in peak condition was still dependent on some exogenous thyroid for peak metabolism.

My post assumed that a temp of 98.6 F is normal, but to your point it's not necessarily optimal. I'm not really interested in whether it is or not.

Regardless, to your point, Ray has mentioned that given how stressful our environment is, that running slightly hyperthyroid might be optimal. So I suppose it would be reasonable for Ray to supplement thyroid if he chose to be hyperthyroid.

Let's assume that 98.6 F is normal, however. This then begs the question: if Danny/Ray did not supplement thyroid, what would their temps be? Do we know that Danny chooses also to be slightly hyperthyroid? Or is he unable to get his thyroid hormone levels above sub-normal levels absent supplementation?

These questions aren't to pick on Danny specifically. I'm really wondering more about myself. Per the stickied thread, my TSH levels suggest that supplementation would be inappropriate. But according to Broda Barnes and maybe also Ray, I'm hypothyroid.

I don't have any reason to think that my liver isn't doing a good job of converting T4 -> T3. It seems reasonable that my mitochondrial performance is impaired due to decades of PUFA consumption. So I'm not sure what all this means as far as repairing my metabolism.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Let's assume that 98.6 F is normal, however. This then begs the question: if Danny/Ray did not supplement thyroid, what would their temps be? Do we know that Danny chooses also to be slightly hyperthyroid? Or is he unable to get his thyroid hormone levels above sub-normal levels absent supplementation?

As I also pointed out, exogenous thyroid hormone was "normal" previous to the 1950s and such, and likely going back to hunter-gathers.

Even if 98.6 is both "normal" and "optimal," it might not be possible without some sort of exogenous thyroid. Maybe that used to come from eating parts of thyroids of animals, or in foods like milk, where the most reliable source these days is from some sort of thyroid supplement.

These questions aren't to pick on Danny specifically. I'm really wondering more about myself. Per the stickied thread, my TSH levels suggest that supplementation would be inappropriate. But according to Broda Barnes and maybe also Ray, I'm hypothyroid.

Why do you think Hypothyroidism should be defined solely by TSH levels? TSH is a pituitary hormone. Also, the first cases of Hypothyroidism were diagnosed around 1870 or so. TSH wasn't even discovered until 1916. Blood tests for TSH didn't become popular until decades later, meaning the "diagnosis" of hypothyroidism was basically redefined 50 or 60 years after the condition had been officially recognized.

 

[TheSir]

Let's assume that 98.6 F is normal,

Even if 98.6 is both "normal" and "optimal," it might not be possible without some sort of exogenous thyroid.'

To me it seems that getting your core temperature to 98.6F matters the most. As such, you would have to measure your sublingual temperature instead of taking the measurement from the armpit, the latter of which tends to provide considerably lower measurements to the true core temperature. I'm frequently at 98.6F, even 99F, core temperature without any thyroid supplementation and with like 1.5-2 TSH.

 

[definitely mayb]

As I also pointed out, exogenous thyroid hormone was "normal" previous to the 1950s and such, and likely going back to hunter-gathers.

Even if 98.6 is both "normal" and "optimal," it might not be possible without some sort of exogenous thyroid. Maybe that used to come from eating parts of thyroids of animals, or in foods like milk, where the most reliable source these days is from some sort of thyroid supplement.



Why do you think Hypothyroidism should be defined solely by TSH levels? TSH is a pituitary hormone. Also, the first cases of Hypothyroidism were diagnosed around 1870 or so. TSH wasn't even discovered until 1916. Blood tests for TSH didn't become popular until decades later, meaning the "diagnosis" of hypothyroidism was basically redefined 50 or 60 years after the condition had been officially recognized.

I would agree if we knew that the standard of 98.6 F were based off populations still eating ancestral diets. Is that the case, however? Although it also begs the question of why contemporary children tend to be closer to 98.6 F, with temperature declining as we age. Ray speculates that progesterone might be why women have higher temps on average than men. So diet would seem not to be the whole story. (How does progesterone increase thyroid activity [besides being simply "anti-stress"?])

 

[TheSir]

I would agree if we knew that the standard of 98.6 F were based off populations still eating ancestral diets. Is that the case, however?

From what I am aware, the number is based on the temperature that the numerous enzymes in your body require in order to function optimally.

 

[Pete Rey]

I think it's just a matter of being dialed in. Why mess with it even if his capacity for natural production has gotten higher over time? Same as testosterone, getting natural levels up is one thing, keeping them there day after day is another. Having the perfect amount every day regardless of how much stress you are under is a pretty nice luxury. Also you're talking about a guy that bugged out alone to rural Mexico in anticipation of societal collapse. Psychological stress is a beast of its own. Not to psychoanalyze too deeply -- we're all under it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I would agree if we knew that the standard of 98.6 F were based off populations still eating ancestral diets.

Well, this was the standard established back in 1851, so I'd say it's safe to say those people weren't gorging on Twinkies and Crisco and such.

Is that the case, however? Although it also begs the question of why contemporary children tend to be closer to 98.6 F, with temperature declining as we age.

Body temperature seems to have been declining for over a century-

Decreasing human body temperature in the United States since the Industrial Revolution

Since the Industrial Revolution, normal body temperature in both men and women has decreased monotonically by 0.03°C per birth decade.

elifesciences.org

Are Human Body Temperatures Cooling Down?

A new study finds that they have dropped, on average, over the past century and a half

www.scientificamerican.com

Stanford University researchers looked at data from Civil War soldiers and veterans and two more recent cohorts to confirm that body temperatures among American men averaged around 98.6 degrees F back then but have steadily fallen over time and that temperatures among women have fallen as well. Their data find an average for men and women of 97.5 degrees F.

Why Is the Average Human Body Temperature Decreasing?

Raising a puzzling challenge involving human evolution.

www.psychologytoday.com

Human Body Temperature Is Getting Cooler, Study Finds

Our average normal temperature may no longer be 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[tankasnowgod]

Also you're talking about a guy that bugged out alone to rural Mexico in anticipation of societal collapse.

I don't think it was "societal collapse," I think he just recognized that San Francisco was declining rapidly. The destruction of San Francisco has been well documented by all sorts of people.

 

[Gânico]

I think even with an overall good diet it's very difficult to achieve optimal thyroid function, considering that our bodies are constantly burdened with tons of modern environmental toxins, and the fact that you spent most of your life eating an overall anti-metabolic diet.

That's why exogenous hormones like thyroid and progesterone are so helpful, they will artificially raise your metabolism, making you feel better while speeding up the healing of our "wounded" physiology.

 

[Pete Rey]

I don't think it was "societal collapse," I think he just recognized that San Francisco was declining rapidly. The destruction of San Francisco has been well documented by all sorts of people.

Like I said, not going to psychoanalyze too deeply, but obviously it's more than just SF if you've been listening to his interviews with Ray. Just saying, the guy deals with stress just like the rest of us and that's reason enough to want to stay on the thyroid replacement.

 

[Herbie]

Like I said, not going to psychoanalyze too deeply, but obviously it's more than just SF if you've been listening to his interviews with Ray. Just saying, the guy deals with stress just like the rest of us and that's reason enough to want to stay on the thyroid replacement.

Someone asked Danny why he moved to Mexico, he gave his reasons on his podcast.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

All you need to do is go Low Fat, High Carb and watch your temps skyrocket.
Unpopular opinion, but most thyroid advice coming from alternative/ holistic Health practicioners, that includes Ray, doesn’t really work effectively long-term.
You either get T4 mono therapy to work for you, or you’re out of luck and best give up exogenous thyroid.

 

[Herbie]

@definitely mayb

Someone asked Ray why he continues to take thyroid, he said something like because our environment is so degraded and we are under so much stress and some people will always need to supplement with it plus we used to eat the thyroid of animals, now we don’t.

 

[definitely mayb]

All you need to do is go Low Fat, High Carb and watch your temps skyrocket.
Unpopular opinion, but most thyroid advice coming from alternative/ holistic Health practicioners, that includes Ray, doesn’t really work effectively long-term.
You either get T4 mono therapy to work for you, or you’re out of luck and best give up exogenous thyroid.

How long do you think it generally takes for temps to normalize?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

How long do you think it generally takes for temps to normalize?

On T4, 6 weeks on a fixed dose.
I, personally, recently quit all forms of thyroid. Too much of a headache to deal with and could never get something working for a prolonged period.

 

[Nomane Euger]

All you need to do is go Low Fat, High Carb and watch your temps skyrocket.
Unpopular opinion, but most thyroid advice coming from alternative/ holistic Health practicioners, that includes Ray, doesn’t really work effectively long-term.
You either get T4 mono therapy to work for you, or you’re out of luck and best give up exogenous thyroid.

hi,does going high white sugar low fat will make his temps skyrocket according to you?if something does not work for you,do you consider that it can not work and does not work for others?

 

[RealNeat]

Fish head soup is easy to obtain, can be low PUFA if the body is avoided/ fat skimmed and made very delicious.

The doses of thyroid can also be more easily "standardized" as opposed to trying to deal with a large mammals thyroid and it's doses.
Chicken necks are likely next best for ease of dosing. I forget Rays exact quote on some farmer he knew eating too much chicken neck soup and getting a temporary hyperthyroid state.

"

Classic Fish Stock​

For this stock, be sure to use only non-oily fish such as sole, turbot, rockfish, or snapper. Classic cooking texts advise against using oily fish like salmon for broth, probably because highly unsaturated fish oils become rancid as they cook. The cartilage in fish bones melts very quickly, so fish broth needs only a short cooking time. See Nourishing Broth, p. 171.

Ingredients

1 whole large, non-oily fish, or 2 to 3 non-oily fish heads, gills removed
2 tablespoons butter
2 onions, peeled and coarsely chopped
1 carrot, peeled and coarsely chopped
1 cup mushroom stems, coarsely chopped (optional)
½ cup dry white wine or vermouth
About 4 quarts cold filtered water
1 bouquet garni made with parsley sprigs, thyme sprigs, and a bay leaf tied together with kitchen string

Instructions

1. Wash the fish carcass or heads thoroughly with cold water.
2. In a stockpot large enough to hold the fish, melt butter over medium-low heat. Add onions, carrot, and, if desired, mushroom stems. Cook, stirring occasionally, until the vegetables are softened, about 30 minutes.
3. Add wine. Increase heat to medium and bring to a boil.
4. Add carcass or heads. Fill stockpot with enough cold filtered water to cover the bones, then bring to a bare simmer. Carefully skim off any scum that rises to the top.
5. Add bouquet garni. Reduce heat to low. Simmer with the lid off, or slightly askew, for about 1 hour, skimming from the top as needed. Check occasionally that the bones remain covered with water, adding more if necessary
6. Remove fish carcass or heads with tongs and a slotted spoon. Drain stock through a fine mesh strainer into a 2-quart Pyrex measuring cup or large heatproof bowl (see tips for straining in Nourishing Broth, p. 149).
7. If not using right away, cool to room temperature, then refrigerate uncovered for several hours until the fat rises to the top and congeals. Skim fat and transfer stock to airtight containers. The fish stock will keep in the refrigerator for up to 5 days and in the freezer for months.

Tip from the Traditional Cook: I’ve also made a much simpler broth with just the heads and some added kelp, which I’ve used in some Nourishing Broth recipes and some dishes that I’ve found online." Maria Atwood

 

[rayban]

How do you rate the Oura Ring 3 to monitor constantly your temperature and have a log throught the day?

Im at 36.4Cº myself tested. I dropped my old mercury termometer (luckily it didn't spill much and was able to get rid of it). Im never again using these old termometers. The Oura Ring 3 looks pretty good and measures other stuff as well.

And I also wonder about the temp to TSH ratio. And there's t4 to t3 ratio and antibodies, as well as PTH. Have you measured that? @definitely mayb

I've been on eutirox 75mcg at night, I take it at around 4:30 am, and go to bed at 5:30 am, my sleep schelude is a bit f*cked, but I hate having to wake up 30 minutes earlier to drink a glass of water with a pill. I should at least go to bed at 4 am and wake up at 3 pm and get some sun tho.

Vit D (tested both OH25 and 1,25 metabolites otherwise its useless) were rather low. Im taking a small dose of vitamin D supplement on EVOO base and have to test again. I have read high doses of vitamin D can block your vitamin D receptor which is a cluster**** so im not sure about these 1000+ UI daily regimes.