Concerning Blood Work - What Am I Doing Wrong

[Jsaute21]

It probably in total took me 4 years to recover from hypogonadism (verified by blood tests along with improved physical signs). Two of those years were trying other diets like BS paleo/keto protocols, which only made things worse. The other two years were following Peat. But I bought into the idea that I needed thyroid supplements to increase my temperatures even though my TSH and free T4/Free T3 were completely normal. I bought into the stop the thyroid madness crowd as well. Then I tried high liquid Peat for a while based off of people asking him what an ideal diet would be and he claimed 2 quart of milk/1 quart of OJ. People can say that other's take him out of context or whatever, which is partly true, but when you have a good percentage of people who follow Peat's work drinking copious amounts of fluids, you have to wonder if it is all just a misinterpretation or if some of what Peat "recommends" is really not optimal for some individuals.

Tailoring my diet to whole nutritious foods and fluids only when thirsty was the best thing I've ever done. Also focusing on sleep and sunlight. My point in writing about that it can take so long to recover has to do with the fact that we have a multitude of factors keeping us down and troubleshooting all of these/finding what works for us can take a long time. Often times it is not just one factor, but many factors that cause stress and poor nutritional status. Some examples: PUFA stores that can take years to deplete, our lifestyles are poor (too much working under fluorescent lighting and not enough sunlight), poor air quality, constantly conflicting evidence in nutrition that may make us sway wildly from one strategy to the other, etc... Oftentimes diet is not the #1 factor bringing somebody's testosterone levels down. I know a guy who had low T and tried everything, every kind of diet, etc. Simply quitting his corporate office job to work as a laborer and be outside all day tripled his testosterone levels, and he confirmed that his libido/function improved as well.

Every one of us has responded to the OP's thread with some good suggestions, but that doesn't mean that those suggestions will work for him. It is going to be up to his own experimentation and patience finding what works for him. And that can take time. This is why I think he has a lot of thinking to do for whether or not he should come off of TRT. Regardless of whether his diet is optimal or not, there are a number of reasons why it may take a long time for his levels to come back to normal.

Do you take thyroid supplements now?

 

[stevrd]

Do you take thyroid supplements now?

@Jsaute21, I only take a thyroid supplement if there is a transient stress going on in my life that would temporarily lower thyroid levels. But I seldom need it. Years ago when I was supplementing more regularly, I would keep increasing the dose, ineffectively trying to increase my basal temperature. When I had my bloods drawn, I found that my TSH was below 1, like Peat said it should be. Theoretically my thyroid was functioning well, but my temps were still <97 waking. So I learned that taking thyroid supplements will not necessarily increase your metabolic rate from a temperature perspective. There are a lot of things that affect metabolic rate, not just thyroid. For me it was quality/easily digestible solid food, limiting fluids, enough sleep and sun/bright light that worked the best.

In a sense, somebody who really doesn't need to take a thyroid supplement (if labs and symptoms are normal overall) probably shouldn't. I don't buy into the theory that just because our ancestors infrequently self-medicated with animal thyroids, that we should be taking thyroid hormone. To me, that is not a good conclusion to make. There are many cultures like the kitivans, okinawans, tokeleaus, etc, who would practically never consume thyroid and still had good health.

 

[Jsaute21]

@Jsaute21, I only take a thyroid supplement if there is a transient stress going on in my life that would temporarily lower thyroid levels. But I seldom need it. Years ago when I was supplementing more regularly, I would keep increasing the dose, ineffectively trying to increase my basal temperature. When I had my bloods drawn, I found that my TSH was below 1, like Peat said it should be. Theoretically my thyroid was functioning well, but my temps were still <97 waking. So I learned that taking thyroid supplements will not necessarily increase your metabolic rate from a temperature perspective. There are a lot of things that affect metabolic rate, not just thyroid. For me it was quality/easily digestible solid food, limiting fluids, enough sleep and sun/bright light that worked the best.

In a sense, somebody who really doesn't need to take a thyroid supplement (if labs and symptoms are normal overall) probably shouldn't. I don't buy into the theory that just because our ancestors infrequently self-medicated with animal thyroids, that we should be taking thyroid hormone. To me, that is not a good conclusion to make. There are many cultures like the kitivans, okinawans, tokeleaus, etc, who would practically never consume thyroid and still had good health.

Understandable perspective and i think i am somewhat similar. I have never had bad thyroid labs or low testosterone, but due to a low pulse and temp i started dabbling a bit.

 

[stevrd]

Understandable perspective and i think i am somewhat similar. I have never had bad thyroid labs or low testosterone, but due to a low pulse and temp i started dabbling a bit.

I actually noticed that aspirin and/or niacinamide helps the thyroid function better. As Peat said, if you have high FFAs then thyroid can be inhibited in production/conversion/transport. I take a baby aspirin every day and sometimes take a full aspirin to raise my pulse/temps. Salt also helps me. These things have been much more effective than thyroid supplements for me.

 

[Jsaute21]

I actually noticed that aspirin and/or niacinamide helps the thyroid function better. As Peat said, if you have high FFAs then thyroid can be inhibited in production/conversion/transport. I take a baby aspirin every day and sometimes take a full aspirin to raise my pulse/temps. Salt also helps me. These things have been much more effective than thyroid supplements for me.

Yep. I think most people with the western diet probably have elevated FFA, much of which are PUFA. I often forget about this part of the equation. I am in year two of finding Peat and health has dramatically improved since i found him due to an orthorexic background. For me, thyroid hasn't elevated health too much, but also hasn't resulted in many negatives. I take a very small nibble of cynomel when i do take it, and occasionally a nibble of cynoplus before bed. Aspirin is honestly the best supplement there is. I stupidly forget about it but it kind of serves all purposes.

 

[stevrd]

Aspirin is honestly the best supplement there is. I stupidly forget about it but it kind of serves all purposes.

Agreed. Aspirin benefits me more than any other supplement, bar none. If I could only choose one supplement it would be aspirin. I just take a big dose of K2 once per week to balance things out.

 

[Wagner83]

It probably in total took me 4 years to recover from hypogonadism (verified by blood tests along with improved physical signs). Two of those years were trying other diets like BS paleo/keto protocols, which only made things worse. The other two years were following Peat. But I bought into the idea that I needed thyroid supplements to increase my temperatures even though my TSH and free T4/Free T3 were completely normal. I bought into the stop the thyroid madness crowd as well. Then I tried high liquid Peat for a while based off of people asking him what an ideal diet would be and he claimed 2 quart of milk/1 quart of OJ. People can say that other's take him out of context or whatever, which is partly true, but when you have a good percentage of people who follow Peat's work drinking copious amounts of fluids, you have to wonder if it is all just a misinterpretation or if some of what Peat "recommends" is really not optimal for some individuals.

Tailoring my diet to whole nutritious foods and fluids only when thirsty was the best thing I've ever done. Also focusing on sleep and sunlight. My point in writing about that it can take so long to recover has to do with the fact that we have a multitude of factors keeping us down and troubleshooting all of these/finding what works for us can take a long time. Often times it is not just one factor, but many factors that cause stress and poor nutritional status. Some examples: PUFA stores that can take years to deplete, our lifestyles are poor (too much working under fluorescent lighting and not enough sunlight), poor air quality, constantly conflicting evidence in nutrition that may make us sway wildly from one strategy to the other, etc... Oftentimes diet is not the #1 factor bringing somebody's testosterone levels down. I know a guy who had low T and tried everything, every kind of diet, etc. Simply quitting his corporate office job to work as a laborer and be outside all day tripled his testosterone levels, and he confirmed that his libido/function improved as well.

I had the same struggles of trying a lot of nonsense crap when I started looking into diet, these do quite a bit of harm and made me lose so much time. I include the Ray Peat diet in all this but, the major caveat is that without what actually Peat is saying and encourages people to do, I would never have figured out what to do better. I appreciate Peat not for his advice on drinking milk but for all the rest, and that's a lot. I don't even know if one particular type of diet can fit all, user JamesIV said his changes for foods and macros ratios changed depending on life circumstances, it's also posible that someone with a large muscle mass can handle (or need) more fat than the average fellow.

It may not be factor number 1 but in my case I can reliably say that without it I'm fuckd, on its own it may not be enough (more experimentation needed).

Manual laborers, fisherman, farmers, etc... It may not be the same environment/climate, but you can get pretty darn close. And we have the access to any food we can ever imagine in first world countries. Many of us cannot quit our office/corporate jobs (me being one of them), but that doesn't mean we can't do everything we can to improve our health, even if it won't be optimal. I know my health will never be optimal since I don't live in a bubble or fantasy land, but I'm OK with having great health, I'll take that.

I think you are being idealistic there, a lot of the construction workers end up with awful back problems and various other issues, very physically demanding job can be too much at some point, and the general atmosphere may not be appropriate or anywhere close to what the old generations of Okinawans experienced. As for farmers, what farmers? There are those who work with monsanto, the other ones who are closer to their crop may have very stressful times as well depending on the weather etc.. The point is not simply whether your life will be optimal or not the way you live it, everyone will agree it probably isn't for 95 % of us, but if there are things that you can do to improve then it may be worth pursuing. Of course if you already do great then no need to be greedy, I'm not sure anyone would be except those who experienced the highs of overdosing a supplementation of dht or whatever potent compound.

 

[stevrd]

I had the same struggles of trying a lot of nonsense crap when I started looking into diet, these do quite a bit of harm and made me lose so much time. I include the Ray Peat diet in all this but, the major caveat is that without what actually Peat is saying and encourages people to do, I would never have figured out what to do better. I appreciate Peat not for his advice on drinking milk but for all the rest, and that's a lot. I don't even know if one particular type of diet can fit all, user JamesIV said his changes for foods and macros ratios changed depending on life circumstances, it's also posible that someone with a large muscle mass can handle (or need) more fat than the average fellow.

It may not be factor number 1 but in my case I can reliably say that without it I'm fuckd, on its own it may not be enough (more experimentation needed).


I think you are being idealistic there, a lot of the construction workers end up with awful back problems and various other issues, very physically demanding job can be too much at some point, and the general atmosphere may not be appropriate or anywhere close to what the old generations of Okinawans experienced. As for farmers, what farmers? There are those who work with monsanto, the other ones who are closer to their crop may have very stressful times as well depending on the weather etc.. The point is not simply whether your life will be optimal or not the way you live it, everyone will agree it probably isn't for 95 % of us, but if there are things that you can do to improve then it may be worth pursuing. Of course if you already do great then no need to be greedy, I'm not sure anyone would be except those who experienced the highs of overdosing a supplementation of dht or whatever potent compound.

Totally agree. I think we were basically agreeing on things, and I do see your points. And I agree that without Peat I would not be where I am now. As Chris Masterjohn said, Peat brings us research and ideas that none of us would have seen or thought of. He makes us more able to produce ideas. Like it was Peat that started the whole gelatin craze. Now you have people like Mark Sisson, Chris Kresser, and others promoting it for their paleo communities. It's pretty mainstream now. Masterjohn even said that he started thinking about PUFA being destructive because of Peat's work. So yes, Peat is totally awesome.

As for optimal health, I'm not sure any of us can reach it no matter how orthorexic we are, and that is where steroids come in. I have no problem with people taking TRT. I am 27 now and I already am planning on going on TRT later in life after I have children. Unfortunately, it pretty much makes you infertile and even with HcG, fertility is unpredictable at best. This is why most endocrinologists will say to wait until after you have kids. But yes, I talk to 50+ year old men in the gym who are on physician prescribed TRT and have testosterone levels of about 1000 ng/dl. They say they feel like they are 18 again. And to me, as long as you don't abuse testosterone and take an aromatase inhibitor, more power to you. I think TRT is really the future and why not? Until we can alter our genes or something to stave off the decline of androgens, what better option do we have to feel like freaking boss all the time?

 

[nbznj]

Great posts in here now. I'm glad we're referring to the Blue Zones people. As a pharmacist who was convinced of the almighty power of the Western medicine I used to overlook those. Boy what a mistake - I'm very bitter towards our big agro/big pharma now, this probably surfaces at time, unnecessarily so. Anyways YES focus on life and social interactions first and foremost, and stick to the basics when it comes to dieting (basics needing some tweaking according to blood tests)

I kinda regret knowing about Ray Peat since 2016 but never delving much into his articles because of his writing style. I don't regret TRT because I believe it showcased how my approach to life has been wrong - again, thanks to bloods highlighting a poor liver function; a blessing in disguise.

And to me, as long as you don't abuse testosterone and take an aromatase inhibitor, more power to you. I think TRT is really the future and why not? Until we can alter our genes or something to stave off the decline of androgens, what better option do we have to feel like freaking boss all the time?

I think HMG is what people should take if they want to have kids on steroids. It should work. That and HCG.

I believe the best TRT protocol shouldn't require an aromatase inhibitor because of their action on the progesterone receptor. I'd stick to a T dose that yields decent e2 levels, and rely on vitamin E that has been compared to nolvadex/tamoxifen as a very solid estrogen antagonist.

 

[Ulysses]

your diet is full of junk I'm sorry. The sky high triglycerides show that your liver is completely overwhelmed with very poor nutritional choices.

My number one concern with some of the interpretations of a "Peat" diet here:
- way too many fluids
- far too much calcium
- far too much fructose
- way too many supplements
- a low or non sufficient emphasis on animal food quality

Go back to square 0.

Drop these:
-Thiamine 300mg, every day
-B-complex 100, every day
-Magnesium complex every night
all 3 unneeded with a proper diet
-I eat a good amount of beef every day it seems (try to pair it with gelatin when I can) >> Consume grass fed organic only animal that never ever got in touch with a GMO grain or a CAFO. Unhealthy animal = unhealthy liver and body. Stick to flesh once to twice a week only (liver is better plus that would lead you to discard vitamin A)
-I eat at chipotle a good bit (try to go low pufa as possible) that's junk food, far too many calories per meal
-other random, low pufa meals made at home they still add up. Keep the sat fat / pufa ratio as high as possible at all times
-Peat approved fruit though I do still eat bananas drop the bananas
-Lots of 1% milk and lots of coffee moderate amounts at best
-A good amount of orange juice and coke, though I try to drink that with meals yeah fructose with meats that's even worse. Drop all fructose rich drinks
-Hagen Daz (however you spell that) ice cream 5 nights a week on average junk food


Eat non packaged foods only. Try liver supplements such as milk thistle and/or citrus bergamot. 400 to 800iu per meal that has too many calories.

How is the general state of mind?

Do you have any controlled evidence indicating that fructose itself raises triglycerides? All the associations I’ve seen between the two were in the hypercaloric context. And a hypercaloric diet will raise triglycerides no matter what you’re eating.

I can think of at least one controlled study where a large quantity of fructose was substitued isocalorcally for glucose and the researchers observed no evidence of postprandial triglycerides. I’ll find it when I get home.

Meanwhile, it seems to me like OP’s problem is that he’s eating too much food. Moreover, Eating out at all is a big, big problem no matter what, because the chain of food distribution and preparation for restaurants is full of contamination, e.g. Chipotle workers are obliged to wear plastic gloves that leach xenoestrogenic chemicals into the hot food they touch. No matter what you order, there’s plastic in your food. When one is hypothyroid and/or has a sluggish liver then this additional toxic burden can be very bad.

 

[Wagner83]

I have no problem with people taking TRT. I am 27 now and I already am planning on going on TRT later in life after I have children. Unfortunately, it pretty much makes you infertile and even with HcG, fertility is unpredictable at best. This is why most endocrinologists will say to wait until after you have kids. But yes, I talk to 50+ year old men in the gym who are on physician prescribed TRT and have testosterone levels of about 1000 ng/dl. They say they feel like they are 18 again. And to me, as long as you don't abuse testosterone and take an aromatase inhibitor, more power to you. I think TRT is really the future and why not? Until we can alter our genes or something to stave off the decline of androgens, what better option do we have to feel like freaking boss all the time?

I do have a problem with TRT and this is an other area where Ray is, imo, much smarter. I'm talking about the doses, why suppress yourself rather than support yourself. They say they feel like 18 yo at 50, but whappens at 60? Are they dead by 70?

 

[Jsaute21]

I do have a problem with TRT and this is an other area where Ray is, imo, much smarter. I'm talking about the doses, why suppress yourself rather than support yourself. They say they feel like 18 yo at 50, but whappens at 60? Are they dead by 70?

Precisely. One does not need the testosterone of a 1,000 to feel phenomenal. There are so many ways to optimize ones metabolism and steroid hormones. Honestly my T is probably around 700 and my libido is more annoying than it is enjoyable. Putting on muscle is not a problem either, plus the fact that i don't have the anxiety of messing with my HPTA.

 

[Jsaute21]

Great posts in here now. I'm glad we're referring to the Blue Zones people. As a pharmacist who was convinced of the almighty power of the Western medicine I used to overlook those. Boy what a mistake - I'm very bitter towards our big agro/big pharma now, this probably surfaces at time, unnecessarily so. Anyways YES focus on life and social interactions first and foremost, and stick to the basics when it comes to dieting (basics needing some tweaking according to blood tests)

I kinda regret knowing about Ray Peat since 2016 but never delving much into his articles because of his writing style. I don't regret TRT because I believe it showcased how my approach to life has been wrong - again, thanks to bloods highlighting a poor liver function; a blessing in disguise.



I think HMG is what people should take if they want to have kids on steroids. It should work. That and HCG.

I believe the best TRT protocol shouldn't require an aromatase inhibitor because of their action on the progesterone receptor. I'd stick to a T dose that yields decent e2 levels, and rely on vitamin E that has been compared to nolvadex/tamoxifen as a very solid estrogen antagonist.

You take TRT? i guess i missed this in your earlier post. How long have you been taking it?

 

[Wagner83]

Precisely. One does not need the testosterone of a 1,000 to feel phenomenal. There are so many ways to optimize ones metabolism and steroid hormones. Honestly my T is probably around 700 and my libido is more annoying than it is enjoyable. Putting on muscle is not a problem either, plus the fact that i don't have the anxiety of messing with my HPTA.

What do you attribute the annoying increase in libido to? From what I remember thyroid and even more so androsterone play a part.

 

[Jsaute21]

What do you attribute the annoying increase in libido to? From what I remember thyroid and even more so androsterone play a part.

The biggest thing is being attracted to your significant other, or if your single, being confident probably. I think we often lose sight that libido is controlled by more than just your health and hormones. As far as what contributes to a healthy libido from a health and supplementation standpoint? I would say the biggest things for me would be a healthy metabolism. If i feel warm and good, i am more than likely in the mood. Nicotine contributes positively, so does niacinamide, very small amounts of t3, aspirin etc.

 

[stevrd]

I think some people are missing the point I was trying to make. The guys in the gym I talk to have physician-prescribed testosterone and their testosterone is high, about 1000ng/dl last time I talked to them. This does not mean that one can't have a level of 700, 500, or even 300 to feel healthy and have a good libido.

As for saying that Peat is smarter because we should support ourselves rather than suppress, I want to believe that, but I think that is debatable. The natural life cycle (outside of the bubble of the blue zones) suggests that we lose androgens with age. Now keeping thyroid humming with diet and lifestyle factors can take you pretty far, but can it keep a 70 year old's hormone levels adequate for desired sexual drive/function. The key word here is "desired." There are many elderly people who want to have a higher libido, better muscle mass, prevent sarcopenia, etc. There is nothing wrong with these people taking physician prescribed TRT in doses that are not abusive and have been proven to be safe long-term. To me, I can't wrap my head around the fact that anybody would find this problematic while saying that it's OK to supplement with other hormones like cynomel and DHT, etc. These things are suppressive too, albeit less suppressive, but they are still suppressive.

So yes, I do feel that all strategies should be tried before going on TRT, but I also am not ignorant to the many wonders that TRT can provide and in a safe way provided that proper blood work and doctor visit schedules are maintained, and dosages are maintained in physiological ranges.

 

[stsfut]

I have a lot of posts here I need to comment to, here's a couple replies:
-32" waist pants size
-someone mentioned about eating too much food. I actually started to really try to get a ton of calories after researching Peat. I thought that my issues for a long time were just not eating nearly enough and that was causing my hormone issues. I realize now I need to cut down.
-good point about eating out. I definitely do it way too much. I try to go as pufa-free as possible but I'm not naive enough to think that its good for you. I'm just so busy all the time and on the go so I don't have a lot of time to cook. Work full time and going back to school for Master's.
-Even through a Peat prism I don't see TRT being 'bad' for you. It is probably not necessary for most healthy people but I don't see it having negative effects besides fertility, provided other things are kept in check (estradiol/hemoglobin etc).
-I love my libido, I could never imagine a point to where it would be annoying :)
-I have tried aspirin numerous times and it hurts my stomach every time. I know studies say it doesn't hurt your stomach, but my own experiences say otherwise. Too bad though because of all of its benefits.

Thanks for all the helpful comments, still reading through them all. Sorry if my comments above didn't respond to a question that you asked me.

 

[stsfut]

I have a lot of posts here I need to comment to, here's a couple replies:
-32" waist pants size
-someone mentioned about eating too much food. I actually started to really try to get a ton of calories after researching Peat. I thought that my issues for a long time were just not eating nearly enough and that was causing my hormone issues. I realize now I need to cut down.
-good point about eating out. I definitely do it way too much. I try to go as pufa-free as possible but I'm not naive enough to think that its good for you. I'm just so busy all the time and on the go so I don't have a lot of time to cook. Work full time and going back to school for Master's.
-Even through a Peat prism I don't see TRT being 'bad' for you. It is probably not necessary for most healthy people but I don't see it having negative effects besides fertility, provided other things are kept in check (estradiol/hemoglobin etc).
-I love my libido, I could never imagine a point to where it would be annoying :)
-I have tried aspirin numerous times and it hurts my stomach every time. I know studies say it doesn't hurt your stomach, but my own experiences say otherwise. Too bad though because of all of its benefits.

Thanks for all the helpful comments, still reading through them all. Sorry if my comments above didn't respond to a question that you asked me.

Edit: Also I could argue TRT is good because it suppresses the LH pituitary signalling - good for longevity. no?

 

[nbznj]

This conversation about farm workers got me thinking of the Netflix documentary "Food Inc." - a true eye opener about the poisons approved by the FDA mafia. Must watch...

Anyhow there's ONE guy who looks visibly happy and healthy in there. He's a grass-fed beef, free range chickens farmer who still works in a traditional open air environment. he gives 0 **** about the USDA, has his tribe around, speaks his mind freely. All the other men in there look miserable.

Healthy soils leading to healthy plants and animals lead to healthy humans. Everything else is short to long term poisoning of the liver, heart and vascular system, thyroid, brain, digestive tract...

You take TRT? i guess i missed this in your earlier post. How long have you been taking it?

120 mg/week, it took me a year and a half to find my proper dosing. Mostly because of being fine with takine AIs and/or SERMs. My idea of a proper TRT protocol is T injections only.

 

[Dhair]

Men in this thread who are taking a dogmatic attitude toward TRT saying that it is unnecessary have 1. never suffered from having very low androgens and 2. are ignorant to the myriad of health benefits that androgen replacement therapy can provide. For me, the difference between have low androgens and high androgens is the difference between being so mentally and physically unwell that I can not function as a normal human being in society, and being a healthy, virile, happy man. My experience is not unique. Ray Peat himself has said that the testicular atrophy and infertility is not a permanent situation. Exogenous testosterone does not damage either the pituitary gland or testes in any way, shape or form. The only men who need to be advising someone on TRT are other men who are on TRT.