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I've come across this too. Reading Peat, we come to assume all forms of exercise as being debilitating forms of stress that we should avoid. It's made implicit whenever he talks about exercise: always referring to its stress-promoting damaging effects by referring to the extremes like long-distance runners/marathoners.

The eccentric portion of a lift does indeed induce greater oxidative stress in skeletal muscle compared to eccentric or isometric portion of a lift. I see this as a positive stimulus to increase our muscles capability (size, endurance, power) thus bringing with it all the corresponding advantages. Making sure to keep to keep a high metabolism, while allowing sufficient time for the muscle to recover and adapt, should be recommended and not shunned because of its short term stress producing effect.

I don't like Peat's stance on exercise, especially in light of a plethora of research showing its long-term benefits e.g. 30-45 minute aerobic exercise increases BDNF in the brain (increasing potential for learning), alleviates depression, reduces many cardiovascular factors implicated in disease and ageing.

Even lactic inducing anaerobic exercise increases our ability to handle lactate, increasing lactate threshold, enhancing our ability to clear it faster and more thoroughly whenever we find ourselves producing it.

Using our brains to understand the work of Peat is also a stress that depletes brain glycogen levels. It isn't something we should avoid however, just because it produces a short term acute stress response.
 

tara

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cantstoppeating said:
Reading Peat, we come to assume all forms of exercise as being debilitating forms of stress that we should avoid.
This has not been my conclusion from reading Peat, and I think you'll find many others here who continue to exercise and consider it consistent with Peats ideas.
I see Peat as pointing out the stressful effects of exercise, but also the beneficial effects of building muscle, providing some information about factors that could make exercise more helpful and less harmful, and cautioning against prolonged over-exercise.
He has indeed said that concentric exercise is more useful than eccentric.
 
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tara said:
cantstoppeating said:
Reading Peat, we come to assume all forms of exercise as being debilitating forms of stress that we should avoid.
This has not been my conclusion from reading Peat, and I think you'll find many others here who continue to exercise and consider it consistent with Peats ideas.
I see Peat as pointing out the stressful effects of exercise, but also the beneficial effects of building muscle, providing some information about factors that could make exercise more helpful and less harmful, and cautioning against prolonged over-exercise.
He has indeed said that concentric exercise is more useful than eccentric.

Here's a list of Peat's quotes on exercise as gathered by functionalps (which can be found here: http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/02/01/ray-peat-phd-quotes-relating-to-exercise/):


Ray Peat said:
“Endotoxin (like intense physical activity) causes the estrogen concentration of the blood to rise.”

Ray Peat said:
Anaerobic exercise (getting out of breath) increases the release of, or activity of, a large variety of inflammatory mediators, beginning with lactic acid and interleukin-6 releases from the exercised muscle itself, and including factors released from various cells in the blood, and hormones including estrogen, prolactin, and sometimes TSH.”

Ray Peat said:
“Exercise increases the incidence of asthma.”

Ray Peat said:
“Even in rich cultures, protein deficiency, inappropriate exercise, and emotional tension will contribute to premature aging of the individual, and damage to the offspring.”

Ray Peat said:
Stress uses progesterone and can cause menstrual periods to stop. Girls who begin regular exercise (such as dancing) before puberty have later sexual development.”

Ray Peat said:
“Lactic acid and carbon dioxide have opposing effects. Intense exercise damages cells in ways that cumulatively impair metabolism. There is clear evidence that glycolysis, producing lactic acid from glucose, has toxic effects, suppressing respiration and killing cells. Within five minutes, exercise lowers the activity of enzymes that oxidize glucose. Diabetes, Alzheimer’s disease, and general aging involve increased lactic acid production and accumulated metabolic (mitochondrial) damage.”

Ray Peat said:
“One of the major “acute phase proteins,” C-reactive protein, is defensive against bacteria and parasites, but it is suspected to contribute to tissue degeneration. When its presence is the result of exercise, estrogen, or malnutrition, then its association with asthma is likely to be casual, rather than coincidental.”

Ray Peat said:
“Besides fasting, or chronic protein deficiency, the common causes of hypothyroidism are excessive stress or “aerobic” (i.e. anaerobic) exercise, and diets containing beans, lentils, nuts, unsaturated fats (including carotene), and undercooked broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and mustard greens.

Ray Peat said:
It turns out that exercise induces the signs and symptoms of asthma, not only in “asthmatics,” but in normal people too.

There are many more quotes explaining the detrimental effects of "exercise". Where Peat does elaborate on what forms of exercise are least stressful like here:

Ray Peat said:
“Exercise, like aging, obesity, and diabetes, increases the levels of circulating free fatty acids and lactate. But ordinary activity of an integral sort, activates the systems in an organized way, increasing carbon dioxide and circulation and efficiency. Different types of exercise have been identified as destructive or reparative to the mitochondria; “concentric” muscular work is said to be restorative to the mitochondria. As I understand it, this means contraction with a load, and relaxation without a load. The heart’s contraction follows this principle, and this could explain the observation that heart mitochondria don’t change in the course of ordinary aging.

And:

Ray Peat said:
Concentric resistance training has an anabolic effect on the whole body. Sprinting is probably o.k. Endurance exercise is the worst. I don't think martial arts are necessarily too stressful.

And:

Ray Peat said:
I think periods of intense muscular exertion should be limited to 20 or 30 seconds, followed by rest periods. Otherwise, T3 falls and the stress signals rise. If mental activity has a sense of obligation, of being pushed, it can raise the same stress mediators (serotonin, TSH, prolactin, CRH, cortisol, etc.), but if the attitude is one of opening and exploring new possibilities, it activates restorative processes throughout the body.

It's overshadowed by the amount of time he spends dismissing exercise. Just by way of his language, it's easy to see how unsure he is in recommending exercise than he is of pointing out its stressful effects.

So by reading his body of work, if you were to come away assuming exercise (what form? how "intense" is intense? -- especially as intense exercise e.g. resistance training, has shown to be extremely beneficial to the mitochondria and generally the cardiovascular system) is beneficial, and not some detrimental stress-producing activity that should be avoided, then you are in the minority. Those who choose to exercise, I wager, have allowed themselves to relax on this part of Peat's ideas.
 

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tara said:
cantstoppeating said:
Reading Peat, we come to assume all forms of exercise as being debilitating forms of stress that we should avoid.
This has not been my conclusion from reading Peat, and I think you'll find many others here who continue to exercise and consider it consistent with Peats ideas.
I see Peat as pointing out the stressful effects of exercise, but also the beneficial effects of building muscle, providing some information about factors that could make exercise more helpful and less harmful, and cautioning against prolonged over-exercise.
He has indeed said that concentric exercise is more useful than eccentric.
This is my understanding as well, tara.

Ray Peat said:
Concentric resistance training has an anabolic effect on the whole body. Sprinting is probably o.k. Endurance exercise is the worst. I don't think martial arts are necessarily too stressful.

He makes a number of distinctions, eg. going uphill is beneficial, downhill is harmful.

I like this comment from Peat.

Ray Peat said:
“While jogging became popular for preventing heart disease, we were frequently told by experts how many miles a person has to run to burn off a pound of fat. However, in Russia, physiologists always remember to include the brain in their calculations, and it turns out that a walk through interesting and pleasant surroundings consumes more energy than does harder but more boring exercise. An active brain consumes a tremendous amount of fuel.”

So to me, it makes sense that for people who love to exercise and do so in an enriching way (providing they are not pounding away at in harmful ways), it is good for them.

A healthy sedentary life is possible too. It comes down to choice and making what you wish to do work for you while maintaining optimal energy levels.
 

tara

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If what you mean by exercise is stressfully intense or extended breathless exercise, as many do, and I probably would have 3 yrs ago, you may well be right.

But I've read Peat roughly like this: contracting muscles vigorously for a short time can be helpful, short sprints may be good; rest in between. Don't take up treadmills or long-distance running thinking it's going to make you healthier. Using the peripheral nervous system by moving all the muscles in your body in various ways helps keep it functioning. (Actually, I'm not sure if I've read it this way way this from Peat - maybe this was Katy Bowman. But Peat has made the point that parts of the brain that do not get used fail to produce adequate CO2 to keep them healthy and functioning - I think it might consistent to extrapolate that idea to the peripheral nervous system, but that might be me, not Peat.) Have an interesting life, use but don't overuse your body. Provide enough fuel, and consider using tactics to increase CO2 to help counter tha stress of excess lactic acid.

My preferred exercise is walking, indoor climbing, dancing, occasionally playing tag with kids, swimming, riding bike, yoga class, and at this time of the year, playing in the surf. Unfortunately, the way my life is at the moment, i don't get to do any of these things as often as I'd like. I don't get breathless doing any of them (I can keep my mouth shut). They all involve either low intensity or lots of rests. Since reading Peat, I have not pushed myself to walk up steep hills as fast or often as I possible (I've never been very fit, so it was never very fast); I limit it to a rate I can maintain with my mouth shut, and don't go any further than I feel like.
They all contain elements of either social interaction and/or being outside in interesting enjoyable environments, and other than cycling, provide a useful range of motion.

Sometimes I overdo it - either a night's dancing or a hill climb sometimes seems to push my symptoms over the edge. Now I have a better idea why, and try to avoid pushing myself too far, or if I'm not feeling reasonably well to start with. In the past I have done a lot of hiking, thinking it was good for me. I now suspect that I overdid it too many times, and this may have contributed to my current health problems.

What do yo see here that conflicts with Peat?
 

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tara said:
.But I've read Peat roughly like this: contracting muscles vigorously for a short time can be helpful, short sprints may be good; rest in between. Don't take up treadmills or long-distance running thinking it's going to make you healthier. Using the peripheral nervous system by moving all the muscles in your body in various ways helps keep it functioning. (Actually, I'm not sure if I've read it this way way this from Peat - maybe this was Katy Bowman. But Peat has made the point that parts of the brain that do not get used fail to produce adequate CO2 to keep them healthy and functioning - I think it might consistent to extrapolate that idea to the peripheral nervous system, but that might be me, not Peat.) Have an interesting life, use but don't overuse your body. Provide enough fuel, and consider using tactics to increase CO2 to help counter tha stress of excess lactic acid.

That's a great summary.

Personally, I don't "exercise" and never connected to the hype and how it was healthy and an absolute necessity. Lucky for me.

But I do see the value of movement and having an enriched life doing what you love to do. That supports higher levels of energy and a love for life.

I think Peat is heavy on criticism of exercise to counter the massive volume of so-called scientific data claiming it is not just healthy but absolutely necessary to well being. I seem as him being a strong counter to that and that's why I love the quote about the Russian scientists who remembered to calculate the brain.

He doesn't say don't exercise. He points out what activities are the most harmful on the body and what isn't. He avoids the dogma of this is right and that is wrong and provides information to assist people to create a more healthy and fulfilled life as they see fit.

Among my favorite activities are ping pong, floating/playing in the pool with my kids and dancing.
 

tara

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4peatssake said:
Among my favorite activities are ping pong, floating/playing in the pool with my kids and dancing.
Yay for table tennis - thanks for reminding me!
 

charlie

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Oh my gosh I love ping pong. :D
 
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tara said:
If what you mean by exercise is stressfully intense or extended breathless exercise, as many do, and I probably would have 3 yrs ago, you may well be right.

But I've read Peat roughly like this: contracting muscles vigorously for a short time can be helpful, short sprints may be good; rest in between. Don't take up treadmills or long-distance running thinking it's going to make you healthier. Using the peripheral nervous system by moving all the muscles in your body in various ways helps keep it functioning. (Actually, I'm not sure if I've read it this way way this from Peat - maybe this was Katy Bowman. But Peat has made the point that parts of the brain that do not get used fail to produce adequate CO2 to keep them healthy and functioning - I think it might consistent to extrapolate that idea to the peripheral nervous system, but that might be me, not Peat.) Have an interesting life, use but don't overuse your body. Provide enough fuel, and consider using tactics to increase CO2 to help counter tha stress of excess lactic acid.

...

I understand you've read Peat in such a way, but I find it difficult to come to a similar conclusion after going through his whole body of work. Have you gone through his whole body of work? Those three quotes specifying which types of exercise are least stressful and beneficial are but all his comments in favour of "exercise" among pages and pages of talk on its detrimental effects.

There are many established studies that breathless exercises, during acutely intense periods of time, allow for enhanced lactate threshold with improvements in the cardiovascular system. Google "High intensity interval training" for one such example. This is one such example that conflicts directly with what Peat says regarding exercise.
 
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4peatssake said:
...

A healthy sedentary life is possible too. It comes down to choice and making what you wish to do work for you while maintaining optimal energy levels.


One cannot lead a healthy life while being sedentary. One of Peat's central ideas is that function begets function. The body needs to be exercised, not doing so produces atrophy and other stressors.
 

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cantstoppeating said:
There are many established studies that breathless exercises, during acutely intense periods of time, allow for enhanced lactate threshold with improvements in the cardiovascular system. Google "High intensity interval training" for one such example. This is one such example that conflicts directly with what Peat says regarding exercise.

I think what matters is the sum of all effects. If you point some maybe positive effects, that doesn't necessarily mean it's overall positive.

If it does indeed make thyroid function worse, it would have negative effects. You really need to follow all of them throughout their lives and see who dies first. And you need to choose similar people for the experiment. You can't just analyze the people who exercise on their own initiative, because that's typically a healthier population even before they started exercising.
 
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johns74 said:
cantstoppeating said:
There are many established studies that breathless exercises, during acutely intense periods of time, allow for enhanced lactate threshold with improvements in the cardiovascular system. Google "High intensity interval training" for one such example. This is one such example that conflicts directly with what Peat says regarding exercise.

I think what matters is the sum of all effects. If you point some maybe positive effects, that doesn't necessarily mean it's overall positive.

...

By the same token, pointing to some maybe negative effects, doesn't necessarily mean it's overall negative.
 

johns74

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Right, I'm not claiming it's negative. I'm just claiming that observing those effects you mentioned doesn't come anywhere close to proving it's beneficial.
 
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johns74 said:
Right, I'm not claiming it's negative. I'm just claiming that observing those effects you mentioned doesn't come anywhere close to proving it's beneficial.

Then you'd also have to say the same about Peat i.e. him claiming that observing those effects he mentions doesn't come anywhere close to proving it's negative.
 

johns74

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I haven't carefully read Peat's full explanation. I have no opinion on the strength of his arguments.
 
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johns74 said:
I haven't carefully read Peat's full explanation. I have no opinion on the strength of his arguments.

Well, since you objected to the general idea of drawing long-term inferences from experiments and studies, you don't need to carefully read Peat's full explanation -- after all, did you carefully read any published research on high intensity exercise?
 

johns74

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I can't conclude that the cardiovascular improvements overcome the negative effects of reduced thyroid function (assuming both effects are true). Thus, the claim that exercise is overall beneficial is far from proven by the cardiovascular observations.
 
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And btw, the use of "exercise" isn't taken to mean taking a stroll on the beach or playing tag with your kids. It's generally taken to mean "a specific stimulus in order to produce a specific adaptation". And given the way Peat refers to "exercise", it's clear he's referring to it in the context of physiology i.e. a definition like the above.
 

johns74

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If you get cardiovascular improvement, but cancer from the hormonal imbalances induced by exercise, did it benefit you?
 
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