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Compulsory Insurance is a Racket

Sitaruîm

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These days it’s getting harder and harder to save money while maintaining a decent standard of living in much of the Western world. There are many elephants in the room, and I intend to criticize modern insurance. Let’s take the example of car insurance. The theory is that throughout your many years of driving a car, there’s a positive probability that you will get into an accident. Events for which probabilities can be estimated can be defined in infinitely many ways, many of which are valuable to actuaries. For example, if you are a regular driver, there is a nonzero probability that tomorrow you will be involved in an accident; there is also a nonzero probability that in the next ten years you will be involved in seven car accidents, or that you will never be involved in one for the rest of your days. These probabilities can be estimated with much higher accuracy if the actuaries have at their disposal information about your demographic and biological traits, which is why you fill out a long form when signing up for your insurance.

The job of actuaries is to find averages and other functions of random variables that describe these events. Laymen have an inkling that insurance companies are stealing their money, and their instincts are in most cases right. This is surely the case when they signed a contract against their will.

For the sake of simplicity, let us consider a contract that covers all repair costs for your own vehicle and for damages to other vehicles for which you are liable. In this case, the insurance company will access their data for people who are “like you,” of which there are many. The company will calculate the average of all repair costs for the owners’ vehicles and damages to other vehicles, let us call this number X. By the law of large numbers, which is fair to invoke in this large-sample scenario, the company will neither make profits nor losses if it charges X to everyone who is “like you” for the same contract. For any other, general insurance contract, the same number X can be found with the same process.

The chief selling point for these contracts is that large sums of money will have to be incurred if uninsured when an accident takes place, the contract will allow you to spread the cost out in small monthly installments. The lower and middle classes would often be unable to pay what they owe and be then left in a situation more unpleasant than that of paying insurance. The problem with modern insurance is twofold, and both parts are intimately connected: Insurance companies charge (1+Y)X for a contract, and Y is obscenely large. Government forces citizens to buy insurance.

If Y was obscenely large but governments didn’t force us sign the insurance contract, then fewer people would sign it, and profits would reflect the true value of the contract, which is bad business. If Y was chosen fairly, such that most citizens would voluntarily choose to buy the contract, then the damage done by the obligatory nature of the contract would be negligible.

How can we make insurance fairer than it is today? I propose to have to general classes of insurance contracts: class A will be contracts mandated by the government; class B will be the rest. For class B I support the unforgiving free market, that market where lies and deceit are all-too common. A market that can be so harsh, yet no guns will ever be drawn, at which point the name is not trade but theft. For class A I support a system where the government will be the supplier. A privately held company will not be allowed to provide government-mandated contracts. X will be calculated as explained before, and Y will be chosen to cover other costs, like paying the salaries of the employees involved. The books used to make these calculations will be open to the public. In short, X and Y will be chosen to maintain a state of profitlessness. Petty laws and useless officials will be avoided.
 
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Drareg

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The Ponzi financial system is centred around insurance, its one of the always overlooked aspect of the Wall Street central bank Ponzi scheme.
This is the reason nothing will be changed in relation to it, it keeps the ruling class wealthy and limits loses.
 

Sitaruîm

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The Ponzi financial system is centred around insurance, its one of the always overlooked aspect of the Wall Street central bank Ponzi scheme.
This is the reason nothing will be changed in relation to it, it keeps the ruling class wealthy and limits loses.
I suppose then, that the road to elitehood ends at the board of insurance companies, among others.
 

Neeters 27

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As a newly licensed Insurance Advisor, holding several licenses in various Provinces in Canada, I can tell you that some provinces (its like a state) have 2 separate and distinct coverages, one from the Provincial Government, and the other is from the Insurance company of your choice. This model works very well, and prevents frivolous lawsuits for damages. Coverage for personal lines is based on what the customer wants, but there are minimums to be adhered to, such as full replacement costs in the case of homeowner and auto coverages. clients can add or subtract endorsements for particular items or situations, such as travel to other countries, valuables coverages, water damage for property, seasonal dwellings, all sorts of things. Insurance for Liability HAS to be mandatory, otherwise people that suffer large losses will have catastrophic consequences. The Law of Large Numbers is what applies to determining risk. This industry in Canada is Highly regulated, and ,in my opinion, provides affordable peace of mind for the public as well as for commercial enterprises and the governement itself. As an example, my Municipality (City Govt) has to insure their vehicles that workers use for roads and landscape maintenance, building insurance, liability, etc. it is a necessary thing.
Personally, my home, which is 6 years new and custom designed, along with my husband older pick up truck and my new car, costs me in total less than $3000 per year, with 2 million liability, comp, collision, full replacement value coverage, for home and auto and loads more. I dont think this is too much for the peace of mind i get, and I have been in 2 accidents in my 43 year driving history where I was not at fault, and full coverage. I trust the system here, and I trust the company I work for.
 
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Sitaruîm

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As a newly licensed Insurance Advisor, holding several licenses in various Provinces in Canada, I can tell you that some provinces (its like a state) have 2 separate and distinct coverages, one from the Provincial Government, and the other is from the Insurance company of your choice. This model works very well, and prevents frivolous lawsuits for damages. Coverage for personal lines is based on what the customer wants, but there are minimums to be adhered to, such as full replacement costs in the case of homeowner and auto coverages. clients can add or subtract endorsements for particular items or situations, such as travel to other countries, valuables coverages, water damage for property, seasonal dwellings, all sorts of things. Insurance for Liability HAS to be mandatory, otherwise people that suffer large losses will have catastrophic consequences. The Law of Large Numbers is what applies to determining risk. This industry in Canada is Highly regulated, and ,in my opinion, provides affordable peace of mind for the public as well as for commercial enterprises and the governement itself. As an example, my Municipality (City Govt) has to insure their vehicles that workers use for roads and landscape maintenance, building insurance, liability, etc. it is a necessary thing.
Personally, my home, which is 6 years new and custom designed, along with my husband older pick up truck and my new car, costs me in total less than $3000 per year, with 2 million liability, comp, collision, full replacement value coverage, for home and auto and loads more. I dont think this is too much for the peace of mind i get, and I have been in 2 accidents in my 43 year driving history where I was not at fault, and full coverage. I trust the system here, and I trust the company I work for.
Why does liability insurance have to be mandatory? You can be liable by signing a contract with the other party involved AFTER the incident takes place, rather than being coerced to sign one before the fact, just in case. The fact is that if an insurance contract is compulsory and Y is not chosen as I have suggested, then someone is raking in tons of cash for free. I don't care about how cheap you think your compulsory insurance is, whoever is making the money through these contracts is a multimillionaire.
 

Neeters 27

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it has to be mandatory because if someone injures themselves and sues me, and I am found at Fault, HOw would I ever pay the plaintiff his awarded damages? what if that person needs surgery, has lost their capacity to work, needs to make home modifications because they are now in a wheelchair, I am on the hook for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, and hey, until this year, I was retired with zero savings (hence my return to work in a new insurance career) so tell me how would I pay these damages award without losing my home and everything? only with Liability insurance can I do this. and Liability will pay my court costs. You are not looking at the big picture here, you are focussing on the companies, instead of the INSURED. Furthermore, if I am injured in an accident , who is gonna replace my income when I cant work and whos gonna pay my medical bills, and pay for a caregiver for me or my family while I am recovering? only Insurance my friend.
 

Sitaruîm

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it has to be mandatory because if someone injures themselves and sues me, and I am found at Fault, HOw would I ever pay the plaintiff his awarded damages? what if that person needs surgery, has lost their capacity to work, needs to make home modifications because they are now in a wheelchair, I am on the hook for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, and hey, until this year, I was retired with zero savings (hence my return to work in a new insurance career) so tell me how would I pay these damages award without losing my home and everything? only with Liability insurance can I do this. and Liability will pay my court costs. You are not looking at the big picture here, you are focussing on the companies, instead of the INSURED. Furthermore, if I am injured in an accident , who is gonna replace my income when I cant work and whos gonna pay my medical bills, and pay for a caregiver for me or my family while I am recovering? only Insurance my friend.
Again, you reach an agreement after the fact. If you can afford what you owe, you pay it. If you cannot afford what you owe, contracts can be designed so that you gradually pay what you owe in installments.
 

Ben.

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it has to be mandatory because if someone injures themselves and sues me, and I am found at Fault, How would I ever pay the plaintiff his awarded damages? what if that person needs surgery, has lost their capacity to work, needs to make home modifications because they are now in a wheelchair, I am on the hook for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, and hey, until this year, I was retired with zero savings (hence my return to work in a new insurance career) so tell me how would I pay these damages award without losing my home and everything? only with Liability insurance can I do this. and Liability will pay my court costs. You are not looking at the big picture here, you are focussing on the companies, instead of the INSURED. Furthermore, if I am injured in an accident , who is gonna replace my income when I cant work and whos gonna pay my medical bills, and pay for a caregiver for me or my family while I am recovering? only Insurance my friend.

Why would you be at fault if someone injures themselves?

Why would surgery be so expensive that you need a insurance for it. That is something else among many other things that should be questioned aswell.

Maybe i lack more insight but as far as i understand them they are inherently problematic and parasitic to the society.
Insurance companys are a literal buisness modell that do not create or produce anything of value and only help thoose owning the place first and foremost (big issue) and then only thoose unfortunate enough to be hurt. They may or may not even get something from it if they are unlucky. But thoose people are not even realy in the interest of said companys either, after all they cost them money.

The burden of this world is already way to much on the regular joe paying rent, taxes and insurances.
It's not just insurance companys who are inherently problematic but the systems build around it.


As the OP said. Have the problem be dealt with money wise after the fact. That makes the most sense. Everything else is just giving money to companys in exchange for a "promise" they might not even keep.

To realy solve this properly we'd need to change fundamental approaches we have now in our society and how money is spent.
 

Neeters 27

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You ask why would you be at fault if someone else injures themselves? you caused the slip and fall by negligence, if you didnt clear the ice on your sidewalk, or didnt install a fence around your property that has a swimming pool and a child wandered in and drowned, or you were driving under the influence, or you were speeding or a hundred other reasons why it was YOUR fault. Accidents happen, many are Preventable. many are caused by negligence. that is why we need Liability. nobody has a million dollars available to pay someone damages, and you cant get a "loan' as you put it to pay someone else for damages. Insurance is providing coverage for a LOSS, which can sometimes be CATASTROPHIC to the Insured, if they didn't have insurance. Furthermore, if you are injured or killed by a hit and run driver, and they are uninsured, your own Homeowner's insurance will cover you for this along with many other expenses including wage loss, death benefits, survivor/widows benefits, and funeral expenses. these are common and included coverages under personal liability and personal expenses coverages.
You need to understand that there is an immense NEED for insurance. Nobody will admit guilt and be willing to pay for their negligence, that is why we have insurance and the right to pursue damages via legal proceedings. You need to understand the basis of common and civil law.

I once thought it would be "OK" to deal with a fender bender myself, without claiming on my insurance, as the other driver begged me not to. I listened to her plea, and went along with her. she agreed to pay for the damage to my bumper and replace the crushed lights. However, after driving home,and realizing something was "off" and after having an assessment by my auto mechanic, my alignment had to be redone and what I thought and the other person thought was only going to be 300 ended up to be 2000, and she decided NOT to pay me. later discovered she was uninsured.
Thank goodness I was! I didnt have 2 grand lying around and needed a car to get to college. Insurance saved me.
I understand your ideas, and why cant people sort themselves out, but we are not a Co-operative society. I live in a Province where none of my neighbours socialize nor do they speak English or French. if something happened that might require interaction and exchanging information and/or financial transaction, I would be completely out of luck, and this is the case for most of my Province. Neighbours are strangers. not like when I was a kid. I am 61 now.

Insurance companies pay tons of claims, and replace full value items and some items at commonly depreciated values. This is fair and equitable. Insurance companies are in business to make money. and they have to make enough to cover these claims.
What is wrong with that? doesn't anyone with a business want to make money? otherwise its a hobby. Insurance is a business. businesses provide services at a cost. The cost of insurance to an Insured provides peace of mind for their property and valuables, for replacement (like rebuilding a home that perished in a fire and has to be rebuilt) or for value or cost replacement (when the item is not replaceable, but is still worth something). I don't see anything wrong with that. A Musician that has expensive instruments wants to protect them. what if he stores them in his basement and his sewer backs up and ruins them? without water damage and sewer backup insurance, he's just lost tens of thousands, when if he had this insurance he could replace them. Pls think about this carefully. My sewer backed up in my hoe many years ago, and everything was ruined. The entire basement had to be cleaned, furniture replaced, (kids bedrooms were there), walls, carpets, everything. I would not have had the money to fix this, or found anyone to do it, without insurance coverage. the cost was over $50,000. the cost of the sewer backup rider on my home insurance at the time was 10 dollars extra PER YEAR... it was worth it dont you agree? Insurance companies are highly regulated. they have to stay solvent and have to keep a large portion of their monies in a special account for claim payouts. its guaranteed. at least in Canada.
 
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Sitaruîm

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You ask why would you be at fault if someone else injures themselves? you caused the slip and fall by negligence, if you didnt clear the ice on your sidewalk, or didnt install a fence around your property that has a swimming pool and a child wandered in and drowned, or you were driving under the influence, or you were speeding or a hundred other reasons why it was YOUR fault. Accidents happen, many are Preventable. many are caused by negligence. that is why we need Liability. nobody has a million dollars available to pay someone damages, and you cant get a "loan' as you put it to pay someone else for damages. Insurance is providing coverage for a LOSS, which can sometimes be CATASTROPHIC to the Insured, if they didn't have insurance. Furthermore, if you are injured or killed by a hit and run driver, and they are uninsured, your own Homeowner's insurance will cover you for this along with many other expenses including wage loss, death benefits, survivor/widows benefits, and funeral expenses. these are common and included coverages under personal liability and personal expenses coverages.
You need to understand that there is an immense NEED for insurance. Nobody will admit guilt and be willing to pay for their negligence, that is why we have insurance and the right to pursue damages via legal proceedings. You need to understand the basis of common and civil law.
Insurance companies pay tons of claims, and replace full value items and some items at commonly depreciated values. This is fair and equitable. Insurance companies are in business to make money. and they have to make enough to cover these claims.
What is wrong with that? doesn't anyone with a business want to make money? otherwise its a hobby. Insurance is a business. businesses provide services at a cost. The cost of insurance to an Insured provides peace of mind for their property and valuables, for replacement (like rebuilding a home that perished in a fire and has to be rebuilt) or for value or cost replacement (when the item is not replaceable, but is still worth something). I don't see anything wrong with that. A Musician that has expensive instruments wants to protect them. what if he stores them in his basement and his sewer backs up and ruins them? without water damage and sewer backup insurance, he's just lost tens of thousands, when if he had this insurance he could replace them. Pls think about this carefully. My sewer backed up in my hoe many years ago, and everything was ruined. The entire basement had to be cleaned, furniture replaced, (kids bedrooms were there), walls, carpets, everything. I would not have had the money to fix this, or found anyone to do it, without insurance coverage. the cost was over $50,000. the cost of the sewer backup rider on my home insurance at the time was 10 dollars extra PER YEAR... it was worth it dont you agree?
If someone else's child walks into my fence-free swimming pool the negligence was the parent's, not mine. Your perspective is unique to North America where the price of health services is exorbitant and doesn't reflect the real cost.
 

Sitaruîm

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Also, the solution I propose is actually through a compulsory insurance scheme, but one that is PROFITLESS. Your vision is so narrow, you are happy to pay $10 a month or whatever. But that is how the bosses of these companies become multimillionaires: $10 at a time.
 

Neeters 27

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Unfortunately, the Law would deem YOU at fault not the parents, that is the way it is. At one time there were non-profit insurance companies in Canada, but they went BUST because they didnt have enough funds to cover the claims. one was called "abstainers insurance" that I remember. and in Canada each province provides healthcare, most things are covered like hopitalization and surgery if it is necessary. but we pay for it as a Provincial tax, for myself it runs about600 a year that is taken from my income tax return, plus I pay for private health insurance from my pension, that is 200 a month, and covers dental for me and my husband, which is great. Dental expenses are atrocious. and my Hormones and such. 90% coverage from health INSURANCE.
 

Ben.

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You ask why would you be at fault if someone else injures themselves? you caused the slip and fall by negligence, if you didnt clear the ice on your sidewalk, or didnt install a fence around your property that has a swimming pool and a child wandered in and drowned, or you were driving under the influence, or you were speeding or a hundred other reasons why it was YOUR fault.


Either i read the original question wrong but no, i didn't cause the slip. Noone told him/her to walk on my property. The sidewalk if its public should be the responsibility of said place and thoose that govern it.

If a kid drowned in my private pool that's on the parents. Maybe there are laws that would make me liabel in these situations but imo thoose laws/rules are stupid.

Furthermore, if you are injured or killed by a hit and run driver, and they are uninsured, your own Homeowner's insurance will cover you for this along with many other expenses including wage loss, death benefits, survivor/widows benefits, and funeral expenses. these are common and included coverages under personal liability and personal expenses coverages.
You need to understand that there is an immense NEED for insurance. Nobody will admit guilt and be willing to pay for their negligence, that is why we have insurance and the right to pursue damages via legal proceedings. You need to understand the basis of common and civil law.

They only cover you if the contract requires them to do so. If you have a bad contract or the circumstances are not showing things in your favour eventho you would be in the right you essentially paid money into nothing, for nothing. Paying money for a grave is ridiclious, i'd never participate in that anyway.

No there is no "NEED" depending on the perspective one looks at it. The way value is determined for things in our society is ridicliously stupid in far to many situations. But that is a whole other topic.

I once thought it would be "OK" to deal with a fender bender myself, without claiming on my insurance, as the other driver begged me not to. I listened to her plea, and went along with her. she agreed to pay for the damage to my bumper and replace the crushed lights. However, after driving home,and realizing something was "off" and after having an assessment by my auto mechanic, my alignment had to be redone and what I thought and the other person thought was only going to be 300 ended up to be 2000, and she decided NOT to pay me. later discovered she was uninsured.
Thank goodness I was! I didnt have 2 grand lying around and needed a car to get to college. Insurance saved me.

The other person not paying is not the issue. She can't just inflict damage and get away with it. Unless its a literal homeless person with no possesion, authorities get their moneys worth somewhere somehow unless there is no other way. We can theorize alot here but depending where you live and what contract you have, your insurance might only cover the "damage" you did, not someone elses. These companies are not friends and they don't pay money for the fun of it.

I dont know how much you pay insurance but i'd speculate that you would've had 2k if you didn't pay months/years into needless insurances unless you've been "lucky" to get the contract only recently and the event happened shortly after.

I understand your ideas, and why cant people sort themselves out, but we are not a Co-operative society. I live in a Province where none of my neighbours socialize nor do they speak English or French. if something happened that might require interaction and exchanging information and/or financial transaction, I would be completely out of luck, and this is the case for most of my Province. Neighbours are strangers. not like when I was a kid. I am 61 now.

The lack of communities and helpfullness indeed are a problem, more and more so with globalisation. I still don't see how that justifies insurances. It seems like a overexpensive bandaid for a fundamental artificial societal issue. We look at these things in isolation but healthcare, politics, insurances, environment, these things tie in together. We have a behememoth of ridicliousness of a system.

Insurance companies pay tons of claims, and replace full value items and some items at commonly depreciated values. This is fair and equitable. Insurance companies are in business to make money. and they have to make enough to cover these claims.
What is wrong with that? doesn't anyone with a business want to make money? otherwise its a hobby. Insurance is a business. businesses provide services at a cost. The cost of insurance to an Insured provides peace of mind for their property and valuables, for replacement (like rebuilding a home that perished in a fire and has to be rebuilt) or for value or cost replacement (when the item is not replaceable, but is still worth something). I don't see anything wrong with that.

They dont pay in a sense, they just redistribute money while cashing in while doing so. They don't create, provide or make anything. They only made a pocket everyone pays into. I highly doubt much in the insurance industry is "fair". They are ruled by contracts and the laws surrounding it. There is no care in the world for fairness. Barely anything in this world is.

Yes i see something wrong with paying my entire life for hypothethical scenarios that might never happen while someone drives a ferrari with the money i spent. Especially if its obligatory. I see this problem with taxes too. If you want to have private insurance i don't mind. If in theory all insured people have accidents all at once or the amount of insured exceeds the income the company has then its ****88. It's based on the principles of lottery but in this case in many situations its obligatory.

A Musician that has expensive instruments wants to protect them. what if he stores them in his basement and his sewer backs up and ruins them? without water damage and sewer backup insurance, he's just lost tens of thousands, when if he had this insurance he could replace them. Pls think about this carefully. My sewer backed up in my hoe many years ago, and everything was ruined. The entire basement had to be cleaned, furniture replaced, (kids bedrooms were there), walls, carpets, everything. I would not have had the money to fix this, or found anyone to do it, without insurance coverage. the cost was over $50,000. the cost of the sewer backup rider on my home insurance at the time was 10 dollars extra PER YEAR... it was worth it dont you agree? Insurance companies are highly regulated. they have to stay solvent and have to keep a large portion of their monies in a special account for claim payouts. its guaranteed. at least in Canada.

I dont realy understand how this justifies insurances. Atleast mandatory once. Yes the 10 dollars a year turned out worth it in your case. However it didn't for the thousands or millions of people paying 10 dollar a year. Its good thoose companies have to stay solvent or else this the entire thing is doomed to fail.

Still don't see insurances as a good thing. And them being helpful at times for a few individuals does not undermine my opinion of it being a parasitic enterprise. To realy get at the bottom of all of this we would need to look at how money is flowing and being distributed/spent in general but also how its value is determined.

Personally i calculated the money i have to spend by obligations + what i spent on private insurance + what i ended up having to pay out of pocket anyways. And when i actually needed help with my health issues i had no return, i payed ontop of all the insurances out of pocket while simultanously being abandoned by the medical professionals and its employers (aka insurances) and im still ill and sick. No it was a complete waste of time and money in every regard but atleast someone somewhere has a expensive sport car or a house now and another one has gotten his surgery for free. Theres a ton of money going into these systems that is completly unecessary and it surely is not fair.
 

Neeters 27

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I am sorry you were let down by the insurance systems you dealt with. I myself had to retire early on grounds of disability, and they denied my claims 3 times, and finally I got my coverage and monthly pension after 4 and 1/2 years of ridiculous nonsense. I had to pay an independent medical examiner to do a full assessment, submitted it, and they never even considered it or mentioned it in their denial reasons...So that's where I got them. I let them have it so to speak,how dare they ignore a specialist of this caliber's independent and unbiased opinion? they omitted it, I called them up on it, (this medical specialist is in high regard and teaches at our medical university) and within 2 days they reversed their decision. i have been collecting monthly ever since. I never gave up. Be relentless in your pursuits. Nothing is fair, being sick is awful especially when doctors dont know what to look for. in my case they chalked it up to Menopause, but it was thyroid failure. I was near death and hospitalized with Hypothermia and the doctors had no clue , they were looking for fever not low temps. I fixed myself by studying Peat's essays and going to a Naturopath who prescribed HRT and Thyroid NDT.
In any case, yes I agree with you, there are some that benefit from other people's misfortune it seems. Don't dwell on this, think about yourself and how you can improve. I wasn't handed a "Life is fair" certificate when I was born. thats why they call life the "school of hard knocks". parts of it suck. some of it is beautiful!
 

Sitaruîm

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I am sorry you were let down by the insurance systems you dealt with. I myself had to retire early on grounds of disability, and they denied my claims 3 times, and finally I got my coverage and monthly pension after 4 and 1/2 years of ridiculous nonsense. I had to pay an independent medical examiner to do a full assessment, submitted it, and they never even considered it or mentioned it in their denial reasons...So that's where I got them. I let them have it so to speak,how dare they ignore a specialist of this caliber's independent and unbiased opinion? they omitted it, I called them up on it, (this medical specialist is in high regard and teaches at our medical university) and within 2 days they reversed their decision. i have been collecting monthly ever since. I never gave up. Be relentless in your pursuits. Nothing is fair, being sick is awful especially when doctors dont know what to look for. in my case they chalked it up to Menopause, but it was thyroid failure. I was near death and hospitalized with Hypothermia and the doctors had no clue , they were looking for fever not low temps. I fixed myself by studying Peat's essays and going to a Naturopath who prescribed HRT and Thyroid NDT.
In any case, yes I agree with you, there are some that benefit from other people's misfortune it seems. Don't dwell on this, think about yourself and how you can improve. I wasn't handed a "Life is fair" certificate when I was born. thats why they call life the "school of hard knocks". parts of it suck. some of it is beautiful!
Our opinions are closer to each other than you think. In my original post I didn't propose we scrap the whole thing, but make it transparent and profit-free, which can be done mathematically.
 

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