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Compost is NOT SOIL, soil is Sand, Silt, and Clay. Exposing the compost scam with Gary's Best.
Giraffe
Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2015
- Messages
- 3,730
What is the "great soil scam" about?
The cover crops first of all add liquid carbon to the soil. It's called root exudates. The plants thereby feed microorganisms which in turn provide them with the nutrients the plants need. The plants can signal what they need. The farmers that practice regenerative farming or soil-building practices (whatever you want to call it) make sure that there are living roots in the ground most of the time. This prevents soil erosion, helps to prevent that nutrients are washed away and they feed the soil organisms. Soil aggregates are mostly formed around roots. (Dr. Christine Jones and Gabe Brown explain this in more detail.)
The scam is about when nursery's began selling plants grown in decomposing matter which eventually kills the plant. And all potting soil or gardening soil in stores are not even soil.
I'm not an expert at all and I am still trying to comprehend Gary's knowledge and also Gabe brown I do watch some of his stuff. I've been to an Orange and avocado farm in southern california growing in Soil like gary mentions on the side of a mountain. Thriving plants big time. The whole compost mentality has gotten out of hand in my opinion after watching gary's videos. Gary even mentions how compost is important but the roots are happiest in real soil. The surface is a totally different story where there could be compost and decomposing matter for the microbes and all that it brings.
I think seasonal gardeners get away with planting directly into compost because plants can live in that...for a while. If you are planting long term crops like fruit trees then Gary's techniques seem very important. Every orchard I have ever seen the soil is sand silt and clay and that's it. Eastern washington for example there are a ton of thriving orchards in decomposing granite soil.
I need to put in some work and watch some more Gabe brown and get my thinking going more.
I still think Gary's mentality and knowledge is a very important thing to ponder on.
Yes cover crops are crucial. A potato farm in Fraser valley Canada doesn't fertilize, they grow in real soil and use cover crops in the off season. They occasionally add a little compost to the top of their soil. Very awesome potatoes from this farm.
LeeLemonoil
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2016
- Messages
- 4,265
Finally I get it. Tbh everybody who really assumed the sort of „compost“ you refer to could long-term sustain plants has poor knowledge of plants, basic biology, farming and soil to begin with. Which is obviously why they can be scammed of sorts.
But I also don’t really buy that the point of store bought „compost“ (Blumenerde in my language if I really get the issue now) is really to scam people. It’s kind of assumed and implied common knowledge that and plant you keep exclusively in these kind of „compost“ needs its substrate exchanged / renewed regularly. A healthy real soil doesn’t need that but profits from external compost too
Giraffe
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- Jun 20, 2015
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- 3,730
I feel we are mixing up things here. First there is farming and there is gardening and there is growing plants in pots. No farmer uses potting soil. It's simply not feasible. To improve the soil on the fields the farmer can for example spray a little compost or he can grow cover crops and let them decompose on the spot. For the latter he usually grows something that dies back in winter or he cuts the cover crop shortly before sowing the cash crop.
In my books applying compost is fertilizing. Using synthetic fertilizers is a different thing; It's fertilizing too, but you force feed the plant. You disturb the symbiosis between the plant and the microorganisms and destroy soil health, and you get sickly plants that are susceptible to diseases and pests.
As to potting soil .... it is basically organic matter maybe with a little clay or perlite or something else added to improve aeration or water holding capacity. In theory there is nothing wrong with that. However the quality of the stuff sold (at least where I live) often is quite low. Most of the time the stuff is sterilized and there are synthetic fertilizers added. A problem I sometimes have with store bought potting soil is damping off in young seedlings. The difference in weight between potting soil and top soil is huge. Something to consider if you need to move your potted plants. Being organic matter the potting soil does what organic matter uses to do: It decomposes. After a while you have only dust and roots left. (The same happens to organic matter in soil: If no new organic matter is formed in the soil or added to the soil it will lose its rich dark color.) The nutrients in a pot are limited, so you need to add something after a while.
Regarding the video you linked in the original post ... What he shows ("ground up dead tree") is not compost. You don't want to mix this into potting soil. It's great stuff for mulching strawberries, but you don't want this stuff in the root zone. And soil is more than sand and silt and clay. It's also organic matter, microorganisms, water and gases.
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In regards to potting soil Gary's advice is to make your own using LOTS of perlite because it's so light weight and takes up space well, peatmoss because it hold water well and takes forever to decompose, and charcoal because it's inert and light weight, some sand of different grain sizes.
That's how you would make a light weight pot the Gary way and have thriving plants.
This method it is impossible to over water and you don't have "sewer gases" making the roots mad from decomposing material. Compost on the top Gary mentions being a good idea for those aspects you mention. Layering is the key with compost if you want long lasting happy plants. Keep it mostly on the very top. This Gary's advice. I'm just a dumb repeater, except for that I did actually do this method with some indoor plants and they came back to life and are thriving. Gary said it's important to wash away as much of the crappy nursery decomposing matter away from the roots before you pot the plant and then keep it in the shade for a week to reduce the stress of washing the roots. Worked good.
Gary has some videos about fertilizer that are interesting. I think he's a well rounded smart dude sticking up for the people by speaking out against the scams and doing a good job with his business.
I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't have first hand experience, but gary says the soil should have 1% organic matter in it and compost on top is great.
Just made this tread cause Gary gets you thinking. Would be fun to experiment growing some tomatoes in a Gary soil vs a soil with compost mixed in. See what happens and report back. Hope somebody tries something like that.
That's how you would make a light weight pot the Gary way and have thriving plants.
This method it is impossible to over water and you don't have "sewer gases" making the roots mad from decomposing material. Compost on the top Gary mentions being a good idea for those aspects you mention. Layering is the key with compost if you want long lasting happy plants. Keep it mostly on the very top. This Gary's advice. I'm just a dumb repeater, except for that I did actually do this method with some indoor plants and they came back to life and are thriving. Gary said it's important to wash away as much of the crappy nursery decomposing matter away from the roots before you pot the plant and then keep it in the shade for a week to reduce the stress of washing the roots. Worked good.
Gary has some videos about fertilizer that are interesting. I think he's a well rounded smart dude sticking up for the people by speaking out against the scams and doing a good job with his business.
I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't have first hand experience, but gary says the soil should have 1% organic matter in it and compost on top is great.
Just made this tread cause Gary gets you thinking. Would be fun to experiment growing some tomatoes in a Gary soil vs a soil with compost mixed in. See what happens and report back. Hope somebody tries something like that.
bistecca
Member
He makes some good points.. But also kind of oversimplifies some things.. Chipped up wood, or "dead trees" is not compost.. Compost is a delicate process and a great way to recycle the waste products from your kitchen/landscape maintenance. It's also a great amendment, like he said, probably best top-dressed. Drainage is important. Yes, organic matter will ferment anaerobically if it cannot drain and it will produce toxic soil. (look into Elaine Ingham for more on this topic) This doesn't make compost toxic or a scam. Most potting soil that you buy at the big box stores is formulated with profit in mind. It features primarily peat moss, forestry and agricultural waste products, etc.. It's also kept in a plastic bag with inadequate ventilation and it will often times be allowed to sit out in the rain, and the way the bags are stacked on pallets and often plastic wrapped, will prevent them from draining and thus they will ferment anaerobically and be toxic. If the potting soil you bought smells sour, it's bad. Yes, digging a hole in the ground and filling it with compost or potting soil is a recipe for disaster as the organic rich soil can start to ferment anaerobically before the native soil can drain during a heavy rainfall.. especially if you dig down into the lower soil horizons. No, soil is not JUST sand silt and clay. Plenty of soils have high organic matter. Organic matter accumulation is a feature of lots of healthy ecosystems. Yes, out west they have very low organic matter soils because it's hot and dry.
michael94
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2015
- Messages
- 2,419
I remember someone on another website swearing by diluted seawater for plant health, I think there was even a company making fertilizer with it. Some light searching shows that people do use it and there are even some studies done in a 1:30 Saltwater to Freshwater dilution.
Dave Clark
Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2017
- Messages
- 1,995
Once in the Bahamas, the owner of a neem tree and other botanical food crops farm, told me that after the first hurricane and flooding {storm surge}that he experienced, he felt that the sea water would decimate his crops and poison them. When you think of sea water, you think of salt, which was used in history by countries to poison the crops/fields of other countries they were trying to conquer. However, he said that after the storm surge receded that year and the following years, his crops grew better than he had ever seen them. It seemed possible to me since sea water is replete with nutrients, and I suppose there wasn't enough salt to cause problems.
joaquin
Member
What's up with the sensationalistic title? "Exposing the compost scam" Are we really choosing are words deliberately?
Dang, did you wake up on a japanese flag this morning Sally. If me making fun of compost hurts your feelings then you might want to spend some time watching Gary's videos.
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bistecca
Member
the guy literally calls wood chips "compost" so i wouldn't grant him the highest level of authority.
Wow sensitive compost police are out today. You think a man who has been in the nursery business his entire life and actually doing an honest job for folks isn't qualified. Gary's smart guy I watched a lot of his videos he hits on compost and all the other things, takes time to see what he's all about.
I'm actually starting to think Compost has an estrogenic effect on men.
Seems more manly to make fire with dead tree parts, turn it into charcoal and crush it up and mix that into the soil so the roots can get even more oxygen which is at the top of Gary's list.
joaquin
Member
stfu -- that was stupid title and you know it.
The compost scam=many people think compost is soil, nurseries grow plants in decomposing matter because it's cheap and light but will eventually kill or slow the growth of the plant, Roots don't like growing in compost, yes they will grow in compost but eventually root rot.
check out the attached . Compost is good, but the scam surrounding it is what Gary points out. It's not soil.
check out the attached . Compost is good, but the scam surrounding it is what Gary points out. It's not soil.
no it's not. It's like a book title. then you read the book and realize what the compost scam is all about. Gary's a solid resource that's why I made the thread. Focusing on soil is way more important than making a pile of compost. Compost still being important though.
Thanks for sharing.
I am enjoying his lectures.
I added perlite, peat moss and sand to my last few planting mixes.
Too early to tell, but it made sense to me.
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